*** Sam Wilson (Falcon) *** (Updated)

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  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    What's the difference between 4 and 5 yellow? Does it not do 3 below 5?
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    gamar wrote:
    This both makes his purple a lot better and makes 5/5/3 more attractive. How ironic!

    I think the change pushes 5/4/4 (assuming that 4->5 yellow does something): you don't need 5 blue since you can match away redwing, and his new yellow only cares that you have tiles on board. 4->5 purple just increases tile strength, which doesn't matter anyone since you can just match yellow after purple and instantly pass the defense threshold of 150 damage.

    His new bffs are going to be himself (yay for synergy with his purple finally) and spammable strike tile producers: aka Patch/Punisher/LazyDaken. I don't think that boosting attack tiles would be the most exciting although its certainly not the worst, and finally boosting cheap defensive tiles could be pretty good (Spidey!).
  • I'm glad to see these changes although I think it limits the captain falcon team I was going to use, because a percentage was a lot better for a one tile producer.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,010 Site Admin
    gamar wrote:
    This both makes his purple a lot better and makes 5/5/3 more attractive. How ironic!

    I think the change pushes 5/4/4 (assuming that 4->5 yellow does something): you don't need 5 blue since you can match away redwing, and his new yellow only cares that you have tiles on board. 4->5 purple just increases tile strength, which doesn't matter anyone since you can just match yellow after purple and instantly pass the defense threshold of 150 damage.

    His new bffs are going to be himself (yay for synergy with his purple finally) and spammable strike tile producers: aka Patch/Punisher/LazyDaken. I don't think that boosting attack tiles would be the most exciting although its certainly not the worst, and finally boosting cheap defensive tiles could be pretty good (Spidey!).
    4-5 increases the tiles affected from 2->3. Typo in the original post, since fixed.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Thanks IceIX. 5/4/4 it is!
  • I lean towards 5/5/3, personally. Working backwards:
    5 purple: 14x51 protection tiles (714 total)
    4 purple: 14x35 protection tiles (490 total)
    3 purple: 11x35 protection tiles (385 total)

    You're gaining 105 more protection at 4 purple (which is overkill against match damage anyway) which I don't think is worth the reduced turn on Redwing. That said, since nobody uses CD tiles in PvP, if you only care about using Falcon for PvP than 5/4/4 (or hell, 5/3/5) is perfectly reasonable.
  • I think 5/5/3 is a no brainer now because if you actually need the protect tiles, just don't use/make strike tiles and use Inspiration on your protect tiles and it adds plenty to those too. His presence will also greatly increase the amount of special tiles used in general in PvP and getting them one turn faster is still useful given how quickly he can power them up.

    This is basically a character who stole the secret of uberness from lazy Thor, Magneto, and Spiderman and handed them out to the masses (anyone with a special tile), so he'd be the MPQ's equivalent of Prometheus. I can see Ragnarok opening a clinic for character suffering from Inspiration withdrawal.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    I think 5/5/3 is a no brainer now because if you actually need the protect tiles, just don't use/make strike tiles and use Inspiration on your protect tiles and it adds plenty to those too. His presence will also greatly increase the amount of special tiles used in general in PvP and getting them one turn faster is still useful given how quickly he can power them up.

    This is basically a character who stole the secret of uberness from lazy Thor, Magneto, and Spiderman and handed them out to the masses (anyone with a special tile), so he'd be the MPQ's equivalent of Prometheus. I can see Ragnarok opening a clinic for character suffering from Inspiration withdraw.

    I dunno, I would need to see the 3cd tile vs 4cd redwing tile in action. If the upgrade is as marginal as I think it is, then 5/4/4 seems better. It's not so much about the net extra defense of 5/4/4 as much as it is getting 3 extra protect tiles out there that your opponents need to remove if they want to do any match damage. I think it boils down to 5/5/3 is marginally better in PvP if that extra cd matters (especially considering how you can just match away the tile some of the time) and 5/4/4 is marginally better in PvP (3 extra defense tiles = super annoying).
  • Phantron wrote:
    I think 5/5/3 is a no brainer now because if you actually need the protect tiles, just don't use/make strike tiles and use Inspiration on your protect tiles and it adds plenty to those too. His presence will also greatly increase the amount of special tiles used in general in PvP and getting them one turn faster is still useful given how quickly he can power them up.

    This is basically a character who stole the secret of uberness from lazy Thor, Magneto, and Spiderman and handed them out to the masses (anyone with a special tile), so he'd be the MPQ's equivalent of Prometheus. I can see Ragnarok opening a clinic for character suffering from Inspiration withdraw.

    I dunno, I would need to see the 3cd tile vs 4cd redwing tile in action. If the upgrade is as marginal as I think it is, then 5/4/4 seems better. It's not so much about the net extra defense of 5/4/4 as much as it is getting 3 extra protect tiles out there that your opponents need to remove if they want to do any match damage. I think it boils down to 5/5/3 is marginally better in PvP if that extra cd matters (especially considering how you can just match away the tile some of the time) and 5/4/4 is marginally better in PvP (3 extra defense tiles = super annoying).

    Falcon basically turns anyone with a strike tile into some kind of killing machine, so he is likely to greatly increase the amount of special tiles you'll see in PvP, which makes the marginal upgrade for his blue not so marginal. Currently the only strong special-tile based character is Punisher, but Falcon's yellow, if it stays the way it is, empowers all sorts of special tile based character to become relevent again.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    I think 5/5/3 is a no brainer now because if you actually need the protect tiles, just don't use/make strike tiles and use Inspiration on your protect tiles and it adds plenty to those too. His presence will also greatly increase the amount of special tiles used in general in PvP and getting them one turn faster is still useful given how quickly he can power them up.

    This is basically a character who stole the secret of uberness from lazy Thor, Magneto, and Spiderman and handed them out to the masses (anyone with a special tile), so he'd be the MPQ's equivalent of Prometheus. I can see Ragnarok opening a clinic for character suffering from Inspiration withdraw.

    I dunno, I would need to see the 3cd tile vs 4cd redwing tile in action. If the upgrade is as marginal as I think it is, then 5/4/4 seems better. It's not so much about the net extra defense of 5/4/4 as much as it is getting 3 extra protect tiles out there that your opponents need to remove if they want to do any match damage. I think it boils down to 5/5/3 is marginally better in PvP if that extra cd matters (especially considering how you can just match away the tile some of the time) and 5/4/4 is marginally better in PvP (3 extra defense tiles = super annoying).

    Falcon basically turns anyone with a strike tile into some kind of killing machine, so he is likely to greatly increase the amount of special tiles you'll see in PvP, which makes the marginal upgrade for his blue not so marginal. Currently the only strong special-tile based character is Punisher, but Falcon's yellow, if it stays the way it is, empowers all sorts of special tile based character to become relevent again.

    that was my thought. Psylocke spits out strike and attack tiles really quickly. A little squishy, but maybe they can hide behind someone like Cap (who has perfect color coverage to tank for Falcon)?
  • Phantron wrote:
    I think 5/5/3 is a no brainer now because if you actually need the protect tiles, just don't use/make strike tiles and use Inspiration on your protect tiles and it adds plenty to those too. His presence will also greatly increase the amount of special tiles used in general in PvP and getting them one turn faster is still useful given how quickly he can power them up.

    This is basically a character who stole the secret of uberness from lazy Thor, Magneto, and Spiderman and handed them out to the masses (anyone with a special tile), so he'd be the MPQ's equivalent of Prometheus. I can see Ragnarok opening a clinic for character suffering from Inspiration withdrawal.

    I agree. Basically anybody who atm has an active purple, has a more useful for PvP purple. Mags obw, 2** mags, gsbw, fury, etc.

    As for cd tiles not being used in PvP, there are some characters that do..and if xforce gets buffed as ice is inferring now WILL happen...and fury dropping with a pretty nasty purple cd...that's makes 3 very good countdown users (the current one being ares, who is actually rather common). The extra turn less of recharge is a noticeable bump for def and offense just as with punisher's black. The difference is that the "other option" for punisher is a very good move for pve and a decent move for PvP while the "other move" here is something that will likely only be used as an emergency "happen to have purple" on offense and only if its your only purple move on def.

    Although, on the point of being Prometheus giving powers to the mere mortals...I don't think there really is a character that is "average" and a strike tile user. All of them are pretty good for thier tier. Astonishing gets a bad rap because he was insane befoe and was knocked down to slightly above average (worse than ares/obw, around the same as thor/storm)
  • Although, on the point of being Prometheus giving powers to the mere mortals...I don't think there really is a character that is "average" and a strike tile user. All of them are pretty good for thier tier. Astonishing gets a bad rap because he was insane befoe and was knocked down to slightly above average (worse than ares/obw, around the same as thor/storm)

    The strike tile characters are all decent, but they're never the uber tier like lazy Thor is. This puts them pretty close to that tier, which is pretty overpowered, but if the uber tier isn't coming down, lifting the above average guys to that level at least balances things a bit.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Although, on the point of being Prometheus giving powers to the mere mortals...I don't think there really is a character that is "average" and a strike tile user. All of them are pretty good for thier tier. Astonishing gets a bad rap because he was insane befoe and was knocked down to slightly above average (worse than ares/obw, around the same as thor/storm)
    Psylocke isn't bad, but i think average is a good way to describe her.

    Actually, I think this might make BP an excellent pairing choice. He generates strikes and defenses, and is one of the rare yellow primary characters that would be able to tank for a maxed falcon
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Updated my guide for new Falcon, and I came up with a tier list for all the characters that you can potentially use his yellow with and how effective it would be. It seems especially important to do this with Falcon since his whole point is to support another character with his yellow. Let me know what you guys think and if any changes should be made to it:

    Top Tier - Characters that have cheap, spammable strike tile abilities, and makes Falcon an all-star on your team.
    Punisher - Clearly the best match with Falcon. Instant 3 tiles for 8 green, and no conflicting colors at all.
    Patch - Redwing procs at the beginning of the turn, so you need to deal with your opponent hitting you back before redwing can help you remove tiles. Seems riskier to get the same effectiveness as Punisher.
    A. Wolvie/Daken - If you're in the 2->3* transition, these guys are your main enablers for Falcon.

    Mid Tier - Characters that have relatively cheap tile abilities, but generally don't seem fast enough to maximize Falcon's yellow. Okay to pair with Falcon, but not amazing.
    Psylocke - While her abilities are cheap, it's going to take 18AP minimum to get 3 tiles out, which is double what the top tier characters abilities cost to get 3 tiles out.
    Torch - His green is countdown based so won't benefit from Falcon's yellow, but his black is a decent target if you have him built for it. Boosting attack tiles is nowhere near as good as boosting strike tiles though.
    Spidey - His defense tiles are very spammable and yellow will quickly get you past autoattack damage, but having 2 supports on a team means that you're relying on 1 guy to do all the damage.
    Doom - Black is very slow but puts out a good amount of tiles. Boosting attack tiles is nowhere near as good as boosting strike tiles though.
    Black Panther - His strike tile ability is yellow based, so you need 9 yellow matches + 45 env tiles to get 3 strike tiles out, at which point you've probably exhausted all the yellow AP on the board to boost them out with Falcon. Blue is also pretty slow since it takes a few turns to get online. He does tank yellow/blue for Falcon, but don't expect much synergy at all with Falcon's yellow.

    Bottom Tier - Characters that have expensive tile abilities that don't mesh well with Falcon. You should not have Falcon on your team solely to support these characters.
    LazyCap - His blue already gives you a 300+ defense tile, and since defense tiles get less effective once you're able to negate autoattack damage, Falcon doesn't need to be boosting his tiles at all.
    IW - same reasoning as Cap.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Although, on the point of being Prometheus giving powers to the mere mortals...I don't think there really is a character that is "average" and a strike tile user. All of them are pretty good for thier tier. Astonishing gets a bad rap because he was insane befoe and was knocked down to slightly above average (worse than ares/obw, around the same as thor/storm)

    The strike tile characters are all decent, but they're never the uber tier like lazy Thor is. This puts them pretty close to that tier, which is pretty overpowered, but if the uber tier isn't coming down, lifting the above average guys to that level at least balances things a bit.
    Well, all of the 3*** tile users are close to thor (pun, patch, bp, likely 3*** dakan when he drops). Bringing 2** up to match thor is kinda an odd choice given the reasons behind nerfing tholverine (which was a good choice imo). That said, once dakan drops I suspect we see why falcon isn't necessarily as singularly op has he might sound as dakan will be dropping similar damage tiles from scratch with every green match. combined? Ouch. Dakan/falcon/l.thor. missing black, but the dakan falcon building ap for the best thor moves is pretty easily worth missing one color. The static change is a buff imo, while the original 70% idea was pretty crazy. I don't know how good falcon really is in PvP without someone like dakan who can instantly give you tiles, but at the very least he will be. a good character for new players to use to augment thier 2**. I suspect to see a whoooole lot of obw/falcon/dakan sooner or later...which might lead to them finally reworking obw's black skill when they realise that a static 70+ added to tiles turns 2** dakan/2** obw into a monster far outside thier star rarity.
  • Falcon bridges the gap between the top tier PvP characters and the rest. Lazy Thor is still the best character in pure measureable numbers, but now someone like Psylocke and Wolverine can actually do something. Currently lazy Thor just shrugs off your damage and then eventually kill you with a Call the Storm. I think it's some kind of freak accident since all the top tier uber characters do not use special tiles (Magneto doesn't count since Magnetic Field is almost never used for its protect value) but it actually worked out in the end. I'm not sure where Punisher + Falcon falls under (can easily be too strong), but green has a rather ridiculous bar at the top with Call the Storm, so while Judgment + Inspiration is even more powerful in this new incarnation, it's probably still not quite as devastating as Call the Storm that doesn't even give you a chance to defend against it.

    Another observation: Falcon makes Hulk a lot more viable. Previously, the biggest problem with Hulk is taking enough damage once he's high level to trigger Anger. Since Falcon makes strike tiles/attack tiles much stronger, we'd expect more teams running strike/attack tiles, but then the increased damage allows Hulk to fire off Anger, which is still one of the best passive in the game when it triggers. This wouldn't do much for Hulk on defense (the usual tricks to deal with Hulk still works), but it makes Hulk more valuable as an attacker.
  • Phantron wrote:
    The strike tile characters are all decent, but they're never the uber tier like lazy Thor is. This puts them pretty close to that tier, which is pretty overpowered, but if the uber tier isn't coming down, lifting the above average guys to that level at least balances things a bit.

    I still hope they actually balance LT after they made enough $$$ with his covers...
  • over_clocked
    over_clocked Posts: 3,961
    You don't want Falcon to be tanked for, same reasoning as with the Hood, he's squishy and extremely annoying, so most people would try to take him out first regardless. On offense all you need to do with Falcon is match yellow and blue a couple of times each, or only yellow if blue is covered by Magneto or someone else.
  • Updated my guide for new Falcon, and I came up with a tier list for all the characters that you can potentially use his yellow with and how effective it would be. It seems especially important to do this with Falcon since his whole point is to support another character with his yellow. Let me know what you guys think and if any changes should be made to it:

    Top Tier - Characters that have cheap, spammable strike tile abilities, and makes Falcon an all-star on your team.
    Punisher - Clearly the best match with Falcon. Instant 3 tiles for 8 green, and no conflicting colors at all.
    Patch - Redwing procs at the beginning of the turn, so you need to deal with your opponent hitting you back before redwing can help you remove tiles. Seems riskier to get the same effectiveness as Punisher.
    A. Wolvie/Daken - If you're in the 2->3* transition, these guys are your main enablers for Falcon.

    Mid Tier - Characters that have relatively cheap tile abilities, but generally don't seem fast enough to maximize Falcon's yellow. Okay to pair with Falcon, but not amazing.
    Psylocke - While her abilities are cheap, it's going to take 18AP minimum to get 3 tiles out, which is double what the top tier characters abilities cost to get 3 tiles out.
    Torch - His green is countdown based so won't benefit from Falcon's yellow, but his black is a decent target if you have him built for it. Boosting attack tiles is nowhere near as good as boosting strike tiles though.
    Spidey - His defense tiles are very spammable and yellow will quickly get you past autoattack damage, but having 2 supports on a team means that you're relying on 1 guy to do all the damage.
    Doom - Black is very slow but puts out a good amount of tiles. Boosting attack tiles is nowhere near as good as boosting strike tiles though.
    Black Panther - His strike tile ability is yellow based, so you need 9 yellow matches + 45 env tiles to get 3 strike tiles out, at which point you've probably exhausted all the yellow AP on the board to boost them out with Falcon. Blue is also pretty slow since it takes a few turns to get online. He does tank yellow/blue for Falcon, but don't expect much synergy at all with Falcon's yellow.

    Bottom Tier - Characters that have expensive tile abilities that don't mesh well with Falcon. You should not have Falcon on your team solely to support these characters.
    LazyCap - His blue already gives you a 300+ defense tile, and since defense tiles get less effective once you're able to negate autoattack damage, Falcon doesn't need to be boosting his tiles at all.
    IW - same reasoning as Cap.
    Did you forget cMags because nobody actually uses his tiles to PROTECT right now? 5 AP for two protect tiles and then Inspiration is pretty boss
  • locked wrote:
    You don't want Falcon to be tanked for, same reasoning as with the Hood, he's squishy and extremely annoying, so most people would try to take him out first regardless. On offense all you need to do with Falcon is match yellow and blue a couple of times each, or only yellow if blue is covered by Magneto or someone else.

    I think people are underestimating how much easier it is to keep yellow match-3s off the board than to deny a color. His abilities are so conditional... He's got offensive potential, but I actually don't think he'll be very annoying on defense.