*** Magneto (Classic) ***

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  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Okay yeah, after playing around with the team a bit, I'm now convinced that X-Force C Mags is the best 2 character combination in the game
    Yeah, it makes total sense that if you remove two colors from the board via their red and black, what's left over has some incredible match potential. My only problem is that on defense, the AI is only going to sequence those abilities by accident. I was thinking Deadpool would be the most idiot-proof partner for the AI.

    Meh, the abilities don't even have to be sequenced really. I've done surgical into c mags red plenty of times and its still worked out. I would still say that C. Mags is vastly superior to Deadpool (unless you're against purple highest match guys, of which there are almost none) on defense, since purple is never going off on defense, and C. Mags blue and yellow are pretty okay on defense. I'd say the chances at getting cascades are the most important thing on defense, which C. Mags does well.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    Okay yeah, after playing around with the team a bit, I'm now convinced that X-Force C Mags is the best 2 character combination in the game
    Yeah, it makes total sense that if you remove two colors from the board via their red and black, what's left over has some incredible match potential. My only problem is that on defense, the AI is only going to sequence those abilities by accident. I was thinking Deadpool would be the most idiot-proof partner for the AI.

    Suprisingly not. The skills work so well independently it doesn't matter. If you cast X-Force you just destroy the board. If you cast surgical strike you remove a color and if you use Polarizing Force you remove TU's. Yes the perfect scenario is X-Force into Polarizing Force into Surgical Strike but it works in any combination. Polarizing Force gets you more colored tiles to maximize Surgical, but Surgical also removes a color getting you more TU's for Polarizing Force. I'ts more optimal for you to PF first just because SS does more damage per tile, but they compliment each other perfectly. XF just shakes the board up and doesn't effective either one in theory. I have been winning a lot more defensive battles with these two. For one, people underestimate C.Mags right now, and almost 5K on his blue isn't anything to laugh at, but Coercive Force is almost worse going off than Recovery. At least with Recovery you can down X-Force before he heals, if C.Mags gets Coercive Force off the game just slowed up, and that is not good for the player.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! NorthernPolarity, who died and made you Boss? icon_e_smile.gif I completely don't care what local «cool kids» think cool or playable. So, if someone prefer 3/5/5 LT or can't play with 5 red Sentry it's not my problems. All my builds made by choice. And excellent working. Currently I need respec only BP, Red Magneto and Lil'Daken.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    1. Patch's TBTI is mediocre. 14AP takes almost twice-three times the amount of time it takes to get 9AP, and you need Patch to be tanking at least 2 colors for it to even be cost efficient (a tall order when he's not the featured character in most cases).

    Mediocre? One-shot any char is mediocre? Ok. And yes, I may have even 4 or 5 colours if this needed. If you can't build right combo and mindless leveled all chars to max, I gratz you. icon_lol.gif
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    2. Supernova is terrible at sustained pushing, to the point where I don't use it in almost any circumstance unless I'm desperate.

    I'm big fan of Supernova. It's one of most powerful AoE in whole game (also WWW) and with right team, played fun and super effective.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    3. She-Hulk - I didn't include red powers of unplayable characters because you would never run an unplayable character over a playable character.

    I very like She-Hulk and for me she one of most useful chars now. In all modes. On any part of time.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    4. Why would you even have 4 cover LT? If you're comparing characters, you need to compare them with the builds that they're actually played in, which in this case is 3/5/5 for LazyThor.

    Why? Cuz I need and want that. Like 3/5/5? Great. I don't. Btw, 4/5/4 is true 166 3/5/5 ** Thor by stats.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    5. Rag - Unplayable.

    Looking where, looking with someone. If character don't have win button it's not mean, what he useless or unplayable.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    High end abilities (CTS / fireball / etc) have an AP ratio of 500 damage / AP. If C. Mags red generates a SINGLE cascade (which I think on average it does? wheres mischief when you need him) on a typical say 8 TU tile board, then it deals 3.8k damage, which has a very respectable ratio of 400 damage / AP. This is probably in the average case: if you get more than one cascade or more TU tiles, then the damage easily hits over 500 damage/AP, which is in line with top tier skills. All of this for 9 red AP, which is pretty damn fast.

    I don't care about ratio. Absolutely. Who said that everyone should play by this system? I play in MY way. And it's worked. So, please, stop try forcing me play in that way. Thanks.
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    So it's better than you thought. OTERSEY'S an idiot if he doesnt' understand the new C.Mags. I've been playing him regularly and honestly like him more than before.

    Another one.... Who is you? Member of forums circlejerk? Why do you all think that everything has to be just your manner? And watch your mouth. I'm not your mom.
  • Trisul
    Trisul Posts: 887 Critical Contributor
    Look man, have fun playing what you like. These guys are talking about min/maxing, which isn't your priority. No biggie.

    Also, if you want to argue points, you have to come up with better reasons than "it works for me!" or "it's just, your opinion, man."
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    OTERSEY wrote:
    Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! NorthernPolarity, who died and made you Boss? icon_e_smile.gif I completely don't care what local «cool kids» think cool or playable. So, if someone prefer 3/5/5 LT or can't play with 5 red Sentry it's not my problems. All my builds made by choice. And excellent working. Currently I need respec only BP, Red Magneto and Lil'Daken.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    1. Patch's TBTI is mediocre. 14AP takes almost twice-three times the amount of time it takes to get 9AP, and you need Patch to be tanking at least 2 colors for it to even be cost efficient (a tall order when he's not the featured character in most cases).

    Mediocre? One-shot any char is mediocre? Ok. And yes, I may have even 4 or 5 colours if this needed. If you can't build right combo and mindless leveled all chars to max, I gratz you. icon_lol.gif
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    2. Supernova is terrible at sustained pushing, to the point where I don't use it in almost any circumstance unless I'm desperate.

    I'm big fan of Supernova. It's one of most powerful AoE in whole game (also WWW) and with right team, played fun and super effective.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    3. She-Hulk - I didn't include red powers of unplayable characters because you would never run an unplayable character over a playable character.

    I very like She-Hulk and for me she one of most useful chars now. In all modes. On any part of time.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    4. Why would you even have 4 cover LT? If you're comparing characters, you need to compare them with the builds that they're actually played in, which in this case is 3/5/5 for LazyThor.

    Why? Cuz I need and want that. Like 3/5/5? Great. I don't. Btw, 4/5/4 is true 166 3/5/5 ** Thor by stats.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    5. Rag - Unplayable.

    Looking where, looking with someone. If character don't have win button it's not mean, what he useless or unplayable.
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    High end abilities (CTS / fireball / etc) have an AP ratio of 500 damage / AP. If C. Mags red generates a SINGLE cascade (which I think on average it does? wheres mischief when you need him) on a typical say 8 TU tile board, then it deals 3.8k damage, which has a very respectable ratio of 400 damage / AP. This is probably in the average case: if you get more than one cascade or more TU tiles, then the damage easily hits over 500 damage/AP, which is in line with top tier skills. All of this for 9 red AP, which is pretty damn fast.

    I don't care about ratio. Absolutely. Who said that everyone should play by this system? I play in MY way. And it's worked. So, please, stop try forcing me play in that way. Thanks.
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    So it's better than you thought. OTERSEY'S an idiot if he doesnt' understand the new C.Mags. I've been playing him regularly and honestly like him more than before.

    Another one.... Who is you? Member of forums circlejerk? Why do you all think that everything has to be just your manner? And watch your mouth. I'm not your mom.

    The majority of your arguments consist of "I play it because I like it" and "This character/skill is awesome and supports my point" even though the majority of the forum base disagrees with you. The reason why I use things like AP ratios is because i'm trying to quantitatively justify why a skill like C. Mag's red is a lot better than it initially seems.

    No one is forcing you to do anything: if you want to play your style even though the majority of other people disagree with your views (such as She-Hulk being one of the most "useful" characters right now), then by all means go ahead: it's your account after all. I'm just trying to help other people by explaining why I think X-Force / C. Mags is going to be the new Sentry/Daken in PvP post Sentry nerf, and make their lives easier by showing them what probably is the best PvE team composition in the game right now. It's your choice whether or not to follow this advice, and if you think I'm wrong, then you need to actually give a meaningful counterexample as to why I'm wrong (which I would gladly consider and change my viewpoint should the argument actually make sense) or else your arguments have no merit.

    Just as an example,
    OTERSEY wrote:
    Mediocre? One-shot any char is mediocre? Ok. And yes, I may have even 4 or 5 colours if this needed. If you can't build right combo and mindless leveled all chars to max, I gratz you. icon_lol.gif
    Yes. Spending 14AP of the same color (which is a lot more than say spending 9 AP of colors) to one shot a character can be mediocre when you can spend 11AP on a surgical and kill almost 2 guys off of that skill and the resulting cascades / AP gains. It's not even unconditional: look at the current PvE. If you're playing Patch + Punisher, then TBTI does almost nothing, and if you aren't playing Punisher and Patch on the same team, then either you handicap yourself by not playing the major boosted character, or aren't playing Patch.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I do need to switch to 3/5/5 from my 5/5/3.
    You guys convinced me that this is where my ISO needs to go next, but why not 5/3/5? Seems worth getting the extra protects and countdown overwrite possibility, with no loss in red's board shakeup, which seems more the point, than the damage it does.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I do need to switch to 3/5/5 from my 5/5/3.
    You guys convinced me that this is where my ISO needs to go next, but why not 5/3/5? Seems worth getting the extra protects and countdown overwrite possibility, with no loss in red's board shakeup, which seems more the point, than the damage it does.

    Dealing almost twice the damage (~1.8k to 3.5k for instance) is very significant. The most important case for this is against Hood: 3 red wouldn't even deal half of his hp in damage, whereas 5 red AP will almost kill him. Also, red is just that much more important than yellow that you're going to be using it a lot more than yellow since you'll prioritize it higher, and it's also good to level the skills that you use more.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I do need to switch to 3/5/5 from my 5/5/3.
    You guys convinced me that this is where my ISO needs to go next, but why not 5/3/5? Seems worth getting the extra protects and countdown overwrite possibility, with no loss in red's board shakeup, which seems more the point, than the damage it does.

    Dealing almost twice the damage (~1.8k to 3.5k for instance) is very significant. The most important case for this is against Hood: 3 red wouldn't even deal half of his hp in damage, whereas 5 red AP will almost kill him. Also, red is just that much more important than yellow that you're going to be using it a lot more than yellow since you'll prioritize it higher, and it's also good to level the skills that you use more.

    What NP said, but by no means does that mean 5/3/5 is not playable. That was going to be the build I was working towards until I discovered the awesomeness of Red. 4 in any one of C.Mags abilties is bad, which I think D3 generally tries to do, so that leaves you with 5/5/3, 5/3/5, or 3/5/5. I personally value red so much that 5/3/5 is out for me. And from my play most recently, my 5/5/3 build has saved me once with the super shields, but cost me 4 times of ending matches earlyer because of blue. For that reason I'm going 3/5/5. Yes I know they won't be as good and I can't overwrite CD tiles, but I'm okay with that, it reduces damage enough that it's effective.

    But who knows, what if the next 4* is Red/Purple/Green and that he works well with C.Mags, well than maybe 5/3/5 plays better. My justification for deciding 3/5/5 was A.Dmg rules B.so many other good yellows.
  • mjh
    mjh Posts: 708 Critical Contributor
    yellowflag.png makes absolutely no sense for Magneto. He is literally wearing no yellow. This change is ridiculous. All you see is primarily purpleflag.png in his uniform. To top it off this game is in dire need of good purpleflag.png powers and they took a really good one away.

    purpleflag.png
    redflag.png
    blueflag.png

    all the way
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    If we remove The Hood from the picture (he makes all high AP cost ability easy to get but then your opponent could just run The Hood too), blue is quite expensive to get. I currently run 5/5/3 and there are quite a few game I'm sitting on 20 blue that I have no idea how I got, but I suspect if I switch to 3/5/5 or 5/3/5 I'd instead be looking at a pile of red or yellow and wondering why I maxed out blue instead.

    The simplest comparison would be blue versus red. Both does damage and their side effect is not meaningfully impacted by extra covers (swapping an extra tile is hardly going to lead to anything significant). Blue obviously has better damage improvement, but red is a 3 match ability versus 4 blue match for blue. Against a character like The Hood 3 matches may be all that you can get on him, and even without AP steal, sometimes that 4th match just doesn't want to cooperate.

    For yellow, it's not very good for PvP but it is extremely good for PvE. For a format like Gauntlet both the elevated strength at level 5 and the ability to have a chance to overwrite the insane special CDs your enemies get helps a lot. Yes it's only a chance it'd get a level 395 Threaten tile that creates 2X1500 strike tiles, but I'd take a chance to protect against instant death versus no chance given a stronger red/blue would have relatively impact against enemies of that level. If you primarily do PvP 3/5/5 should be fine because 5 in Coercive Field isn't particularly effective against most teams you face (level 3 Coercive Field can stop most level 166 WR combos just fine), but if you do PvE a decent amount it's much harder to pick an optimal build.
  • HairyDave
    HairyDave Posts: 1,574
    Phantron wrote:
    For yellow, it's not very good for PvP but it is extremely good for PvE.
    It does however make sustained pushing extremely easy - one blast of Coercive Field and you don't need to concern yourself with match damage anymore. Less health pack usage means longer play sessions.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    HairyDave wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    For yellow, it's not very good for PvP but it is extremely good for PvE.
    It does however make sustained pushing extremely easy - one blast of Coercive Field and you don't need to concern yourself with match damage anymore. Less health pack usage means longer play sessions.

    Agreed on both counts. I have noticed playing the gauntlet that sub lvl 250 3/5/5 just seems to work better as I could have downed numerous opponents who were sitting at 5K health, but couldn't due to being 5/5/3 and especially with X-Force, if you play X-Force you will end up with 10 blue relatively quickly, but outside of X-Force I see the merit of 5/5/3. X-Force blows up the board so much that 5/5/3 seems silly with C.Mags because you end up destroying half your shields anyway and any special tiles from enemies also get caught up in the destruction. But outside of X-Force and outside of PvP, 3/5/5 starts to lose it's luster. I have C.Mags at 5/5/3, I want to switch to 3/5/5 but I'm not sure because as I said, if you try to take a 3/5/5 into PvE and you don't have X-Force that lvl 5 Coercive Force is going to serve you far better than lvl 5 Magnetized Projectiles in the later levels, early on it's a wash, because a lvl 3 Coercive Force can negate most of the damage anyway sub lvl 200
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Best build arguments always work in a vacuum fine but in the real world scenario you can't just say who has better powers at that color. Clearly his blue is 5 - obvious

    Yellow 5 is a ton better for defensive - AI and much much better for PVE

    Red 5 is pretty good for LR cutting through weak opponents

    it comes down to an avg difference of about 1k more damage with 5 red vs 3 red in a short match (roughly 100 per TU tile and say an avg of 10 tiles) 1 time before enemy is wiped VS 450 defense instead of 250 (again rough numbers) with the ability to overwrite any enemy tile.

    There are many many better red and yellow abilities both so that argument is kind of silly but in the pve world where there's a bigger chance you'll be limited for what you can put with CMag, I'd say 535 is a lot better.

    For PVP - well I won't use Cmag anymore but for people still working on their 3* rosters, he's definitely viable and if you always need a red user - his is a good option if you're not using LCap, Deadpool, Torch, She Hulk, (Sentry defensively), Patch (board dominance) or Colossus.

    Same deal with Yellow - better yellows in pvp are very abundant as well - Fury, BP, Sentry, Thor - ok not as many but those 4 are all much much better
  • Nonce Equitaur 2
    Nonce Equitaur 2 Posts: 2,269 Chairperson of the Boards
    Someone posted a poll for this guy.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I'd go with 5/3/5 because the only character whose HP is low enough for the extra damage on red to matter is OBW. You need more than 5 in Polarized Force to deal with The Hood because he's too dangerous in general and everyone else have too many HP to matter. His yellow is hard to use, but it doesn't conflict with other yellow abilities that much because he's more of a control type of guy and putting him with BP/Thor/Sentry doesn't make much sense to begin with as those guys are all straightup power guys. When you put Magneto with another straightup power guy his only contribution is a decent blue power and you'll usually be better off just putting 2 power guys instead.
  • poomermon
    poomermon Posts: 300 Mover and Shaker
    3/5/5 all the way. People are really underestimating the power of mags red. It can easily deal over 3k damage and can lead to some juicy cascades. When combined with X-Forces black you suddenly have 2 whole tile colours missing from the board which usually leads to ridiculous cascades and almost instant game over. There are individually better red abilities (star-spangled avenger and fireball) but when considered as whole (his blue is really good too) I think magneto is the best character that uses red in the game. I don't think mags yellow is that great and crippling his other abilities for more protect tiles and quite low chance to overwrite countdown tiles is worth it. So 3/5/5 it is.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    LoreNYC wrote:
    Best build arguments always work in a vacuum fine but in the real world scenario you can't just say who has better powers at that color. Clearly his blue is 5 - obvious

    Yellow 5 is a ton better for defensive - AI and much much better for PVE

    Red 5 is pretty good for LR cutting through weak opponents

    it comes down to an avg difference of about 1k more damage with 5 red vs 3 red in a short match (roughly 100 per TU tile and say an avg of 10 tiles) 1 time before enemy is wiped VS 450 defense instead of 250 (again rough numbers) with the ability to overwrite any enemy tile.

    There are many many better red and yellow abilities both so that argument is kind of silly but in the pve world where there's a bigger chance you'll be limited for what you can put with CMag, I'd say 535 is a lot better.

    For PVP - well I won't use Cmag anymore but for people still working on their 3* rosters, he's definitely viable and if you always need a red user - his is a good option if you're not using LCap, Deadpool, Torch, She Hulk, (Sentry defensively), Patch (board dominance) or Colossus.

    Same deal with Yellow - better yellows in pvp are very abundant as well - Fury, BP, Sentry, Thor - ok not as many but those 4 are all much much better

    Don't understimate C.Mags in PvP. Combined with X-Force, he is scary good. Playing him lots in PvP and PvE I have found that not having 5 in blue really hurts him. Being able to do darn near 5K damage is too good, and I always end up with 10 blue numerous times, especially with X-Force. That then brings the debate to 5 yellow or 5 red, which before I was having the debate with 5 yellow or 5 blue, blue answered quite convincingly, Blue must be 5. So how to evaluate the other two? Well red hits hard at 5, assuming 9 TU's out this skill will be hitting for 2349, vs. 1413 at lvl 3. Almost a 1K damage difference, and when combined with Surgical Strike it is oh so lethal. I think it's up there with the best reds' in the game although limited by the board, but I like to run X-Force and C.Mags and with X-Force it doesn't make much sense to run Coercive Force as X-Force will just blow it up.
  • mags1587
    mags1587 Posts: 1,020 Chairperson of the Boards
    I initially thought I'd go 5/3/5 but I've been playing with 5/5/3 for awhile (no covers have dropped for me to respec yet) and I've discovered that 1) I really like his red and find myself using it often, and 2) his yellow isn't as appealing as I thought it would be. I did like the idea of it but in practice, I rarely fire it off and it rarely overwrites the tiles I'd like it to. His red and blue get far more use for me, so I might as well max the abilities I use most often. So as soon as I can actually find some blue covers, I will be going to 3/5/5.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Phaserhawk wrote:

    Don't understimate C.Mags in PvP. Combined with X-Force, he is scary good. Playing him lots in PvP and PvE I have found that not having 5 in blue really hurts him. Being able to do darn near 5K damage is too good, and I always end up with 10 blue numerous times, especially with X-Force. That then brings the debate to 5 yellow or 5 red, which before I was having the debate with 5 yellow or 5 blue, blue answered quite convincingly, Blue must be 5. So how to evaluate the other two? Well red hits hard at 5, assuming 9 TU's out this skill will be hitting for 2349, vs. 1413 at lvl 3. Almost a 1K damage difference, and when combined with Surgical Strike it is oh so lethal. I think it's up there with the best reds' in the game although limited by the board, but I like to run X-Force and C.Mags and with X-Force it doesn't make much sense to run Coercive Force as X-Force will just blow it up.

    His red is great but you're not using it for the damage. 1.4K vs 2.3K isn't an amount that'd matter to almost anyone besides OBW or The Hood. It's sometimes useful as a finisher when you hit a regen guy like Patch/Daken with an X Force/Surgical Strike that didn't quite finished the job, but this combination generates so much AP you can usually afford to be wasteful. It's not unusual to be sitting on 30 AP of multiple colors once you get some Polarized Force + Surgical Strike going. While Coercive Force isn't always very useful, Recovery isn't exactly a great yellow skill either. The third most likely yellow user on the team in this setup would be The Hood and again Twin Pistols isn't the greatest yellow skill int he world either, and if not The Hood you probably won't be tripling up on yellow in this team.
  • Katai
    Katai Posts: 278 Mover and Shaker
    Except Hood's yellow seems to synergize with this particular team quite well. You're trading yellow for more black and green (or red or blue depending on the situation). Hood's yellow was never really bad (essentially you're trading 14 yellow for 18 other AP, at least 5 of which is usually a color you're aiming for), and it keeps the chain of cascades going.

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