Heroic Chapter 3 PVE Change

Unknown

The biggest problem with the assumptions behind this is that success is not linear, and it's not the same across all types of battles.

hibikir already mentioned that matches between goons and heroes are not equal. but matches in the different environments are not equal, and heroic events are not equal to non-heroic events.

I might be able to beat level 240 devil dinosaur in the desert because m storm can prevent him from taking a turn, but I cant beat a set of level 240 characters in new york.

concerning heroic events, I did pretty well in unstable ISO but was struggling once my nodes started to scale over 200, in order to place well I needed to use boosts in order to grind out those last few nodes. but now my mmr is totally screwed up for this event because I am starting out with level 240 enemies and I have to complete with a **** set of characters. At first I was psyched at the fact that I could use my psylocke but there are no great support characters for her. I really dont know how I am going to pass even the first node in hard without throwing health packs at it.

Also success is not linear, its not like if I win against a match and you make that match incrementally harder, that I will just win with slightly more damage. when you are going up against 230 lvl enemies, you either find a way to prevent them from taking turns or you get killed. there is no middle ground unless you have a really balanced level 141 team.

NO ONE wants to fight level 400 enemies, NO ONE event wants level 240 enemies across the board. especially in a PvE where success is dictated by how many matches you can win in a short amount of time.

I think each different event should be handled individually, start everyone at the same point and just increase difficulty over time. That way you wont be applying unstable ISO MMR to a heroic event. and everyone can have a clean slate even though they may have abused boosts or spidey at the end of the previous event.

One thing this change will do, is create a really incredible incentive to figure out how to game PvE MMR. as far as I know there is no reliable way to do so. everyone has their theories but I have not seen it successfully applied to someones game. Because of the 240s in the simulator, people were starting to think about it but it never quite reached the pain point to make it a necessity.

With this latest change it's a real pain point and it's a real incentive for us to figure out how to game it. Not sure if anyone has noticed but PvP tanking has blown up now because skips can no longer be used for free. The same thing will end up happening to PvE as well. The end result of the skip tax is that MMR is totally unreliable as far as matching people with the same ability. In fact, you end up facing the toughest opponents at both the bottom and top of the MMR scale. it's only in the middle that you can get some medium challenge opponents.

The bottom line is that some of these changes that are being made have a theoretical purpose but they don't increase the fun factor of the game. Someone thinks that the game needs to present more "equal" matches to players and they are completely missing what makes the game fun.

Long drawn out matches are not fun.
Matches where I barely squeak past a victory but I need 3 healthpacks to recover is not fun
Winning 1 out of 3 matches is not fun.

Being on a roll where you feel like a hero winning 5 matches in a row is fun.

looking at the first day of a new PvP event and seeing a match that you are not sure if you can beat is not fun.

Sure it's always nice to have changes that increase the competitiveness of the game but at the same time you don't want to do any harm.

Unknown

Just want to add one more thing, the real problem is that the scaling does not seem to be consistent. some people that had 240s last event are seeing level 72s. If everyone that has a properly leveled team has the same level of challenge it would be one thing. competition would be somewhat leveled. but when you know people that have much stronger rosters and a third of the challenge in an event it really makes you frustrated.

Whatever is going on now just isnt working. not sure how we can actually communicate it properly to the designers that be.

Unknown

What Dave said

chamber44

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Another random thought: scaling makes me actively NOT want to play the event. If I'm grinding nodes for rewards, then I'm increasing my MMR and scaling, which I obviously do not want. I can't simply pick up the game and grind the nodes randomly anymore: I need to minimize the amount of time spent playing the game if I want to keep nodes at a reasonable level, and ride rubberbanding to victory. A feature that decreases user engagement feels like a bad idea in general.

this.


Also - this roster is ****. Is there any reason for selecting this roster other than making it P2W, or even P2P? to even have a chance at these higher levels (in this tournament), i, along with many other people i'm sure, will have to drop actual money on either Health Packs, or Iso/HP to level these characters. There can't be that many people in the general player population with high level BP and Psylocke, to say nothing of M. Hawkeye (worthless) and Bagman (more worthless than the Kardashians).

Twysta

There's also the assumption that with higher level fights that people will die to these nodes and lower the levels when the fact is, most people if they even brave it up enough to attempt the node won't even bother to try again if they know they can't beat it.

I remember when I started and I'd see a 230 node and just think... no thanks. I'm not doing that!

Things like that will totally and completely skew win:loss ratio data.

Unknown

EVEN IF the changes this week end up being popular, good for the game, and/or profitable, you guys HAD to know that a perceived decrease in rewards (no guaranteed covers, courageous tokens) and perceived increase in difficulty (scaling) would generate a huge initial backlash, it's weird that you did both at once, especially right after the progression reward issue. Did you decide to just bite the bullet?

It's been said before, but you're a brave man to descend into this pit of vipers, IceIX

LordWill

I'm literally too stunned for words. I have asked why we even have community scaling in the first place when there is no group/collective objective in the first place.

I agree with most everything said in this thread and I think it boils down to this...

This was the one of the most questionable decisions yet. Is there no one there that can listen to reason or is the attitude still, This is our game and our vision, play it and be happy or don't. Because that's certainly how it feels. Player punishment.

Didn't we have a thread about the stick and the carrot? Did you learn nothing?

Sorry but you are taking a game that I love and have invested a lot of time and money in and slowly destroying it. Again I propose to put in a PUBLIC POLL in game and ask people if they like the changes or not and see what the response is. How are you getting your feedback if not from the forums and emails which you have already stated is a very small portion of the playerbase. So have you tried asking the entire playerbase what they want or would like or do you care?

Just poll them to see what they think of community scaling. If you care about the future of this game and really want to have long term players, I would suggest more carrot and less stick.

PorkBelly

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea.

I totally understand the desire to make the event competitive but this will make it impossible.

Or at the very least, extremely undesirable, particularly for the skimpy awards.

Dealing with a 230 enemy is already a nightmare.

Unless you have a full roster of level 230 4* characters (which no one does), level 400 enemies are insane.

I really don't understand the rationale that D3 has with making the game increasingly more difficult & grindy while simultaneously reducing the amount of awards that players can get.

Unknown

PorkBelly wrote:

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea.

I totally understand the desire to make the event competitive but this will make it impossible.

Or at the very least, extremely undesirable, particularly for the skimpy awards.

Dealing with a 230 enemy is already a nightmare.

Unless you have a full roster of level 230 4* characters (which no one does), level 400 enemies are insane.

I really don't understand the rationale that D3 has with making the game increasingly more difficult & grindy while simultaneously reducing the amount of awards that players can get.

I am extremely skeptical about this change but you guys are acting like he announced that enemies will now have a floor of level 400, not a ceiling of 400. WTT (what the tinykitty)?

Unknown

gamar wrote:

I am extremely skeptical about this change but you guys are acting like he announced that enemies will now have a floor of level 400, not a ceiling of 400. WTT (what the tinykitty)?

Every change in scaling seems like it's been a disaster when it's first implemented, and people are already seeing ludicrous levels in some cases. When has one of these started out well?

Unknown

gamar wrote:

PorkBelly wrote:

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea.

I totally understand the desire to make the event competitive but this will make it impossible.

Or at the very least, extremely undesirable, particularly for the skimpy awards.

Dealing with a 230 enemy is already a nightmare.

Unless you have a full roster of level 230 4* characters (which no one does), level 400 enemies are insane.

I really don't understand the rationale that D3 has with making the game increasingly more difficult & grindy while simultaneously reducing the amount of awards that players can get.

I am extremely skeptical about this change but you guys are acting like he announced that enemies will now have a floor of level 400, not a ceiling of 400. WTT (what the tinykitty)?

My floor is higher than the ceiling that existed as of the last PVE. It's not a hypothetical.

PorkBelly

gamar wrote:

PorkBelly wrote:

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea.

I totally understand the desire to make the event competitive but this will make it impossible.

Or at the very least, extremely undesirable, particularly for the skimpy awards.

Dealing with a 230 enemy is already a nightmare.

Unless you have a full roster of level 230 4* characters (which no one does), level 400 enemies are insane.

I really don't understand the rationale that D3 has with making the game increasingly more difficult & grindy while simultaneously reducing the amount of awards that players can get.

I am extremely skeptical about this change but you guys are acting like he announced that enemies will now have a floor of level 400, not a ceiling of 400. WTT (what the tinykitty)?

If my characters have a max level of 141, there are NO situations where I would want to see a level 400 character. And certainly no situations where I would consider it "fun".

morgh

And bottom line is:

Nothing we write here will make them change their mind - get used to high levels of enemies and people with weak rosters/new players grabbing everything...
Has there been a single time that D3 changed anything based on forum feedback?

...

Thought so...

Unknown

morgh wrote:

And bottom line is:

Nothing we write here will make them change their mind - get used to high levels of enemies and people with weak rosters/new players grabbing everything...
Has there been a single time that D3 changed anything based on forum feedback?

...

Thought so...

We need an MPQ players union.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

gamar wrote:

PorkBelly wrote:

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea.

I totally understand the desire to make the event competitive but this will make it impossible.

Or at the very least, extremely undesirable, particularly for the skimpy awards.

Dealing with a 230 enemy is already a nightmare.

Unless you have a full roster of level 230 4* characters (which no one does), level 400 enemies are insane.

I really don't understand the rationale that D3 has with making the game increasingly more difficult & grindy while simultaneously reducing the amount of awards that players can get.

I am extremely skeptical about this change but you guys are acting like he announced that enemies will now have a floor of level 400, not a ceiling of 400. WTT (what the tinykitty)?

My floor is higher than the ceiling that existed as of the last PVE. It's not a hypothetical.

Unless you can point out where I claimed that nobody's levels would go above 230, your post is a complete non-sequiter

Unknown

I'm usually the type to reserve judgement until I personally try it, but this doesn't sound good at all.

I'm going to reference a classic gaming dilemma, the "bullet sponge". Basically, to increase difficulty they merely increase enemy health (and often damage). It's lazy and doesn't make for a very fun game. It results in limiting viable options and exploiting mechanics such as faulty AI.

This is one reason why people flock to abusing Spidey stunlock--because nothing else works.

Unknown

I imagine they watch metrics. If this change results in a dramatic drop in play/revenue, it will be adjusted or toned down. If it results in increased spend, which could happen if this means casuals get hit by less community scaling, it stays.

chamber44

ihearthawthats wrote:

I'm usually the type to reserve judgement until I personally try it, but this doesn't sound good at all.

I'm going to reference a classic gaming dilemma, the "bullet sponge". Basically, to increase difficulty they merely increase enemy health (and often damage). It's lazy and doesn't make for a very fun game. It results in limiting viable options and exploiting mechanics such as faulty AI.

This is one reason why people flock to abusing Spidey stunlock--because nothing else works.

which, again, you can't even use for this event.

NorthernPolarity

morgh wrote:

And bottom line is:

Nothing we write here will make them change their mind - get used to high levels of enemies and people with weak rosters/new players grabbing everything...
Has there been a single time that D3 changed anything based on forum feedback?

...

Thought so...

Give the devs more credit. Anyone remember back when the skip tax was initially planned and they scrapped it entirely and changed it to the victory bonus? That happened 100% because of the forum suggestions. The announcements regarding the Thorverine nerfs were also made before the nerfs actually happened, and the only reason why they did that was because of forum complaints about being blindsided by the rag nerfs. It's easy to fall into a mob mentality of flaming the devs, but they've proven over time that they are receptive to feedback and will patch things up to make us happier (as long as it doesn't hurt their bottom line). With this scaling issue, I believe that they think they can make it work, and I'm willing to give them more time to fix it. There are definitely tweaks that can be made to it to make things a lot fairer (rewards for people playing harder missions, caps on scaling in a certain time period so you can still grind, etc etc), and so this isn't a completely lost cause. Voice your opinions and give them feedback to point them in the right direction, but don't go all mob mentality on us and start a flame war against the devs.

Unknown

chamber44 wrote:

ihearthawthats wrote:

I'm usually the type to reserve judgement until I personally try it, but this doesn't sound good at all.

I'm going to reference a classic gaming dilemma, the "bullet sponge". Basically, to increase difficulty they merely increase enemy health (and often damage). It's lazy and doesn't make for a very fun game. It results in limiting viable options and exploiting mechanics such as faulty AI.

This is one reason why people flock to abusing Spidey stunlock--because nothing else works.

which, again, you can't even use for this event.

not only that but the entire event takes place in New York, no environmental advantage for M Storm which is the only available character that has any kind of turn prevention ability.

If only they boosted the god damn hot dog stand!

Even the goons will be tough for this event. Only bagman has anti goon abilities and who really wants to dump a bunch of ISO in him?