Heroic Chapter 3 PVE Change

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Comments

  • Clintman
    Clintman Posts: 757 Critical Contributor
    IceIX wrote:
    Here's what happens right now with 230s in-game:
    Player 1 can fight 230s but will come out of it pretty damaged. They're the intended audience for "230s = HARD". They've hit the point where their Deadly/Impossible pins are at that level. Great, fine for just those pins.
    Player 2 can fight 230s and win fairly easily. They may be healing in battle, they may be stunlocking, they may be that good. They're still beating the 230 encounters without issue.
    Player 3 can't fight 230s but they can win against 180s decently well.

    The game sees that the Deadly pin for Player 1 is being beaten regularly by players that are capable of taking down 230s (Player 2). They're both at the high end of PVE rating, so there's no real difference in difficulty as far as the system can see. The game *does* know that users are still defeating those pins pretty easily though, so it raises the floor to try and help difficulty go up for everyone on nodes that were apparently too easy.

    Player 1 sees that a couple of his Hard pins went to Deadly 200s from 180 as a result of being near the top of scaling while his bretheren is knocking down 230s like nothing. Player 1's game just got harder even though it shouldn't have, but the system has little way of knowing that without adding in much more complexity to the scaling system. Player 3 sees their nodes go from 180 to 185 since their rating isn't as high, so they're affected fairly little but still hit. A theoretical player 4 fighting 90s may be fighting 91s, so no big deal there.

    By raising the bar to 400, we've left room for Player 2 to grow while essentially pushing Player 1 into the same position Player 3 now enjoys. It's also the reason you see newbies hanging out in the points ranking for so long. They get hit by scaling less because the people that are pushing the community scaling up aren't hitting them as hard (as they shouldn't). They still hit difficult fights relatively quickly though as their individual rating climbs, so that ends up being self balancing by the end of any given PVE Event.

    Edit: Adding this to the original post for new readers.

    The worst part of all this is that people are going to have to figure out ways to game the system so we can avoid this kind of change, I can see people having a mid leveled shadow roster that they use for the PVE events so they don't get hit by the bat.

    NO ONE wants to fight level 400 enemies, now the community is going to conspire a way to avoid running into the new level 400 wall. I am sure people enjoy making their game play = defeating the unrealistic controls put in place but I sure don't. I would like to be rewarded for what I achieve with my roster, not be brutally punished for it.

    It is still about equality too, I am angry about the thought of fighting level 400 teams for 10 minutes a match compared to some guy doing the same node in 2 minutes against a level 34 team. You could make it easier on me by increasing rewards, that makes sense. What you are doing now does not make sense.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,322 Site Admin
    kevind722 wrote:
    so if you get the point about the rewards, is something going to be done?
    It's been talked about, yes. Is there anything to announce at this moment? No. Until things get pinned down, we tend to stay relatively quiet about amorphous features/changes.
  • Clintman
    Clintman Posts: 757 Critical Contributor
    IceIX wrote:
    Clintman wrote:
    -Warning WOW reference inc.-
    When I took out Lich King on Heroic Mode I got incredible rewards, Joe Casual and his guild of casuals who took out the 10 man normal version did not get the same level of awesome rewards because he did not have to work as hard to get it. What you are doing now is making me fight at the cutting edge of character specialization, using team compositions that are not fun, but required for the same rewards that Joe Casual is getting.
    Err, you got 271s instead of 253s. Hardly amazing. But point taken in any case. icon_e_smile.gif

    How about that epic mount?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Hoping this means that a 400 single opponent could be viable instead of 3 * 230

    Probably not what they're thinking but before there are 7 or 8 230s on everyone's roster, upping the top end to 400 is completely ridiculous
  • Thanos
    Thanos Posts: 722 Critical Contributor
    This comes down to time, a fight taking 10 minutes is terrible. It is not fair to make me use a stunlock team that takes forever to beat this node. The risk vs reward is the piece that you are missing.

    -Warning WOW reference inc.-
    When I took out Lich King on Heroic Mode I got incredible rewards, Joe Casual and his guild of casuals who took out the 10 man normal version did not get the same level of awesome rewards because he did not have to work as hard to get it. What you are doing now is making me fight at the cutting edge of character specialization, using team compositions that are not fun, but required for the same rewards that Joe Casual is getting.


    Agree completely. I think alot of complaining would be squelched simply by scaling the rewards with the difficulty.
  • Clintman
    Clintman Posts: 757 Critical Contributor
    LoreNYC wrote:
    Hoping this means that a 400 single opponent could be viable instead of 3 * 230

    Probably not what they're thinking but before there are 7 or 8 230s on everyone's roster, upping the top end to 400 is completely ridiculous

    In all fairness, I would not use a level 230 X-Force Wolvie over a 141 Patch.
  • sinnerjfl
    sinnerjfl Posts: 1,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Do you not realize that while fighting lvl 230's is hard enough as it is, most of our rosters can only go to lvl 141?

    The AI might be dumb as bricks but when you add ONE HUNDRED levels to the enemy, it more than makes up for it. Knowing how well you guys implemented scaling before, this sure is gonna go well isnt it? icon_lol.gif
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    My take on it is they are trying to give the scaling system room to work as intended, so it can be fine tuned to where it should be instead of anyone with a lvl 85 roster hitting 230's by the end of event and all of the mid and top tier players all being indistinguishably smooshed together.

    Maybe this is the piece of the puzzle they needed to have in place before they could touch spidey without breaking the whole system and his changes are coming soon.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    sinnerjfl wrote:
    Do you not realize that while fighting lvl 230's is hard enough as it is, most of our rosters can only go to lvl 141?

    The AI might be dumb as bricks but when you add ONE HUNDRED levels to the enemy, it more than makes up for it. Knowing how well you guys implemented scaling before, this sure is gonna go well isnt it? icon_lol.gif

    Think you're missing the point of scaling. We've been beating level 230s with 141s: the idea is that they want to scale enemies to a point where it's actually challenging to the playerbase.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm cool with this, guess what we just got.......Welcome to the Spiderman/C.Mags fun balance!!!!!!

    No one complained about C.Mags or Spiderman in PvP very much, it was always about their PvE ability, well guess what, you can stunlock but your margin of error is going way down, as you get hit a few times by a lvl 400 and you won't be doing a whole lot.

    I praise the Devs for this, this is a smart move and a possible answer to all those stunlocker's, you can still do it, but you better becareful.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Does this sound like communism to anyone else? Those who have more must work harder so that those that have less can reap the same benefits.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    kevind722 wrote:
    Does this sound like communism to anyone else? Those who have more must work harder so that those that have less can reap the same benefits.

    No, it's a way to fix an underlying issue. Players are abusing characters, ie. Magneto and Spidey in the PvE enviornment. But....in PvP they are not that big of an issue and most high level players dont use them in some cases because they are slow. It's much easier to adjust one enviorment than redesign a character, because players don't spend time or money in an enviornment, but they do on their characters and considering the heat they feel when characters are messed with, I see why they are trying this first.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    IceIX wrote:
    kevind722 wrote:
    so if you get the point about the rewards, is something going to be done?
    It's been talked about, yes. Is there anything to announce at this moment? No. Until things get pinned down, we tend to stay relatively quiet about amorphous features/changes.

    I think the rewards going up with the enemy levels would be amazing. I only take on level 230 mobs if there is a 500 iso reward left.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I'm cool with this, guess what we just got.......Welcome to the Spiderman/C.Mags fun balance!!!!!!

    No one complained about C.Mags or Spiderman in PvP very much, it was always about their PvE ability, well guess what, you can stunlock but your margin of error is going way down, as you get hit a few times by a lvl 400 and you won't be doing a whole lot.

    I praise the Devs for this, this is a smart move and a possible answer to all those stunlocker's, you can still do it, but you better becareful.


    But not really. Players can game the system by simply just taking some damage before stunlocking and not healing after the end of the battle in order to make the system think that the node was hard for them when it really wasn't. The main problem is that there isn't any reward for beating up level 400 guys as opposed to level 230 guys. Therefore, the optimal way to play is to fight lower leveled guys to save time, which turns out to be a pretty unfun way to play.
  • Twysta
    Twysta Posts: 1,597 Chairperson of the Boards
    This is going to be terrible when you're fighting 300+ level mobs for the 3 rewards you have left only to constantly get that dreaded 20 ISO.
    My common sense is tingling... :/
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I get the intention of raising the difficulty and making the game more competitive, but the rewards system needs fixing too, including progression rewards. This has been a problem that seems to be ignored.
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2014
    So, you "fixed" scaling PvE (in which you are in an obvious competition with other players, so why are we calling it that) tournaments by adding 400 opponents, a situation no one wants to face. Ridiculous. icon_e_sad.gif

    I'll consider the matter fixed when it has been excised completely. Difficulty in PvE shouldn't be tied to the actions of other players or times you can play.
  • sinnerjfl
    sinnerjfl Posts: 1,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    sinnerjfl wrote:
    Do you not realize that while fighting lvl 230's is hard enough as it is, most of our rosters can only go to lvl 141?

    The AI might be dumb as bricks but when you add ONE HUNDRED levels to the enemy, it more than makes up for it. Knowing how well you guys implemented scaling before, this sure is gonna go well isnt it? icon_lol.gif

    Think you're missing the point of scaling. We've been beating level 230s with 141s: the idea is that they want to scale enemies to a point where it's actually challenging to the playerbase.

    Can you do that reliably without Spider-Man? Lvl 230 Daken without stunlock, every match will hit for like 1000 dmg after a few turns, how the hell do you beat that?
  • MarvelMan
    MarvelMan Posts: 1,350
    I applaud the thinking outside the "funbalance" box in an attempt to fix where the issue is. Hopefully this also fixes people at the low end (ie rosters of non max 1*s) coasting into the top spots while those with good rosters scaling to where they cant compete.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    sinnerjfl wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    sinnerjfl wrote:
    Do you not realize that while fighting lvl 230's is hard enough as it is, most of our rosters can only go to lvl 141?

    The AI might be dumb as bricks but when you add ONE HUNDRED levels to the enemy, it more than makes up for it. Knowing how well you guys implemented scaling before, this sure is gonna go well isnt it? icon_lol.gif

    Think you're missing the point of scaling. We've been beating level 230s with 141s: the idea is that they want to scale enemies to a point where it's actually challenging to the playerbase.

    Can you do that reliably without Spider-Man? Lvl 230 Daken without stunlock, every match will hit for like 1000 dmg after a few turns, how the hell do you beat that?

    In red iso 8 my final daken/bullseye node scaled to 227 (not 230 but close enough).

    My highest level character was (base) 89 at the time and I don't have any 3* spidey covers at all. I still cleared it a few times, took some boosting and creativity and some failures but it was doable

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