Progression Rewards for the Human Torch Event are Broken

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Comments

  • Riggy wrote:
    Which they're always working on. I don't believe anyone disagrees with that. I was simply putting your number in perspective.

    The discussion in the most recent part of the thread is whether people should receive compensation for it, which I don't agree with. They put out progression rewards, there was a path to those progression rewards, and due to other reasons people chose not to pursue that path. After balancing reward vs. effort, the grinders prioritized placement rewards over progression rewards, which meant no one got them. Simple as that.

    It might make more sense to complain that the minority (leading grinders) determining the majority's ability to obtain placement rewards.

    But I think that's a large part of the problem - progression awards should not be dependent on others to achieve them; one person, grinding away like crazy, should be able to get the top awards, but there's no reason to think that that's even mathematically possible with this set. PVEs have become too dependent on PVP, essentially, in that they've gone from being a largely solo experience with some ranking awards - in a lot of the earlier ones, final rank was almost an afterthought - to becoming as PVP dependent as the PVP tournaments. PVP and PVP should rally just be called PVP1 and PVP2, or Direct PVP and Indirect PVP. We have no real solo play in this game except the prologue.
  • Riggy wrote:
    MikeHock wrote:
    However the problem occured... who cares; thats up to D3 to deal with, not us.

    End result progression awards were not reachable.
    Which they're always working on. I don't believe anyone disagrees with that. I was simply putting your number in perspective.

    The discussion in the most recent part of the thread is whether people should receive compensation for it, which I don't agree with. They put out progression rewards, there was a path to those progression rewards, and due to other reasons people chose not to pursue that path. After balancing reward vs. effort, the grinders prioritized placement rewards over progression rewards, which meant no one got them. Simple as that.

    It might make more sense to complain that the minority (leading grinders) determining the majority's ability to obtain placement rewards.

    I'm with you and don't agree with receiving any compensation for the issue. I'm so used to progression awards being unreachable that I don't even look at or consider the high end of progression awards. I

    I was only commenting on the customer service side of things.... it'd be nice to see a response that says "yes, we are aware of this issue" and maybe even and apology (gasp!) instead of brushing it off as "feedback".
  • Ben Grimm wrote:
    But I think that's a large part of the problem - progression awards should not be dependent on others to achieve them; one person, grinding away like crazy, should be able to get the top awards <snip>
    Now this much, I 100% agree with you. I've posted in Suggestions about ways to do a personal progression bar off the base value of the node (resets each time you get a reward, and the fight screen shows what % of the progress bar would get filled for that fight, in addition to the normal event point reward), as well as other options.

    I still think the Hulk event was many people's favorite event b/c it made sure everyone who put in the effort came away with a shiny new character for their roster. If viewed in a particular light, it was almost too generous since anyone could hit that node at the halfway point and recruit the Hulk, regardless of whether they helped with the community progression bar.

    I think the most viable PVE reward structure would be to take 1 of the individual placement rewards and move it to a storyline reward (so 1 cover from individual placement, 1 cover from alliance placement, and 1 cover from storyline). I do feel like Hulk was too generous (though awesome), so perhaps at least add a handful of nodes as a precursor. Or perhaps have the reward for completing the final node in a sub-event be some piece of "intel", or whatnot, that gets tracked across subs, so that you still have to participate in and complete the main story for each sub before you can unlock the storyline reward.

    There are a lot of options, I think the devs just need to figure out if they need to make changes and then what changes they can best make to support their goals while maintaining the fun of the event.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    MikeHock wrote:
    Spoit wrote:
    gamar wrote:
    Pwuz_ wrote:
    This issue has existed throughout most of the game really.

    Who can really reach the past *Hawkeye in the progression rewards on S.H.E.I.L.D. Training? Any PvP event, who really gets those Bag Lady covers as progression rewards either?

    I agree they are a tease, but don't act like this is new. If anything it's simply making the PvE more inline with the norm across the rest of the game.

    Although Red ISO was an extreme case because NONE of the worthwhile rewards were reachable, it's really only the past few events - Hulk round 3, Heroic Juggs, and Simulator round 2 - where a huge amount of people left nothing on the table. Before that, PvEs always had at least two or three rewards out of reach for nearly everybody, including almost all of the 1st place winners, too (at least if I recall correctly).
    Not really? Other than these last 2 events, the only times I remember people really whining about the last progression reward(s) being unobtainable was the first run of the hulk, which was fixed for the 2nd.

    Progression awards were absurdly unreachable before they introduced shields. Forgot people whining; for the 4-5 months I've played, it seemed like progression awards have been unreachable about 75% of the time.
    Honestly, PvP progression rewards are just more reachable because more people have been pushing, and the MMR actually tries (even if it doesn't always succeed) to give you people worth reasonable amounts of points. All of the pushes I've made recently, I've not had to actually use a shield to reach.
  • I just don't understand the entitlement. The game is free, you still got rewards for your placement and however much you DID progress. It's a reward not an award, that is to say they tell you if you reach a goal you will receive it but it's not just handed out to a certain percentage. Even if you feel let down for not reaching it, you can't reasonably expect the Devs. to offer you a 2 or 3 star for a participation ribbon. The game has been downloaded over 2 million times in like 6 months, they are clearly doing something right, if you feel otherwise I'm sure they'll refund your initial purchase price.
  • Spoit wrote:

    Progression awards were absurdly unreachable before they introduced shields. Forgot people whining; for the 4-5 months I've played, it seemed like progression awards have been unreachable about 75% of the time.
    Honestly, PvP progression rewards are just more reachable because more people have been pushing, and the MMR actually tries (even if it doesn't always succeed) to give you people worth reasonable amounts of points. All of the pushes I've made recently, I've not had to actually use a shield to reach.[/quote]

    It depends on if you're in the 'crazy' MMR matchup or not. If you're in the matchup where everyone is 141X3 sitting at 500 points you'll never get anywhere without a shield. If you somehow got out of that, it's quite possible to get far without using shields.

    I still can't figure out if they actually intended the 'crazy' MMR matchup to be the norm or not for high end players.
  • Nemek
    Nemek Posts: 1,511
    Phantron wrote:
    Spoit wrote:
    Blah wrote:
    Progression awards were absurdly unreachable before they introduced shields. Forgot people whining; for the 4-5 months I've played, it seemed like progression awards have been unreachable about 75% of the time.
    Honestly, PvP progression rewards are just more reachable because more people have been pushing, and the MMR actually tries (even if it doesn't always succeed) to give you people worth reasonable amounts of points. All of the pushes I've made recently, I've not had to actually use a shield to reach.

    It depends on if you're in the 'crazy' MMR matchup or not. If you're in the matchup where everyone is 141X3 sitting at 500 points you'll never get anywhere without a shield. If you somehow got out of that, it's quite possible to get far without using shields.

    I still can't figure out if they actually intended the 'crazy' MMR matchup to be the norm or not for high end players.

    This is straying a little off-topic, but I wonder the same thing. A long time ago I definitely found myself in one of those 500ish bubbles at the very top of the MMR chain and just barely got top 10 in an event using a full blown maxed 3* roster, possibly even with a pre-nerf Rags. I swore off high MMR for good after that tournament ended.

    As much as tanking is criticized, it does create an opponent-level curve that would seem to make sense - mid 2*s from 0 - 300, maxed 2*s from 300-600, mid 3* 600-900, maxed 3*s 900+. I would guess that the devs may think that the people on the lower end of that would feel picked on by the high-level players making their way up theladder (shhh, he's going to find his name when he searches for it and be pissed it's not about him), but I think it still kind of 'feels' right.
  • Nemek wrote:

    This is straying a little off-topic, but I wonder the same thing. A long time ago I definitely found myself in one of those 500ish bubbles at the very top of the MMR chain and just barely got top 10 in an event using a full blown maxed 3* roster, possibly even with a pre-nerf Rags. I swore off high MMR for good after that tournament ended.

    As much as tanking is criticized, it does create an opponent-level curve that would seem to make sense - mid 2*s from 0 - 300, maxed 2*s from 300-600, mid 3* 600-900, maxed 3*s 900+. I would guess that the devs may think that the people on the lower end of that would feel picked on by the high-level players making their way up theladder (shhh, he's going to find his name when he searches for it and be pissed it's not about him), but I think it still kind of 'feels' right.

    Right now you basically have this top MMR matchup that is supposed to represent the most successful players in PvP but they're all sitting at around 500ish points, because everyone in there is equally capable of beating everyone else, so you hit someone for 27 and that guy immediately hits you back to 27 and after a while you learned that there's literally no way you can sneak past those guys. They're also hardcore enough that even playing at odd hours rarely shakes them. So whoever is in that top MMR matchup has surprisingly low PvP rating.

    I guess you can say if you're at the top of the MMR matchup you've accomplished everything you can and you really don't need covers at that point. While that's sort of true, it feels pretty weird to be fighting 5 guys with maxed roster that seem to know the moment you have 50 points more than they have and barely scrap a top 10 finish since you can't lose those crazies at all. Of course then there's question of what's the incentive to be in this so called top MMR matchup list when dropping a single tier down can usually get you a #1 finish very easily? After all anyone who is that elusive MMR chain is more than capable of destroying virtually all opposition, otherwise you'd never make it up there.

    I'm thinking they need to somehow identify these 'crazy' MMR ranges and maybe offer double iso8s for playing at this difficulty. It's not just a matter of levels, as you're matching up against guys who are totally devoted to the game and knows the moment you hit them and it's just very frustrating to play for 3 hours and end with 505 points when you started at 500.

    It's okay for the top players to not always place well, but you got to have something else to make up for it. I find that I'm usually iso8 starved compared to HP or cover starved, so I don't mind taking a placement hit for more iso 8s. It'd obviously have to be more than what the #1 is expected to pull normally, since otherwise you'd simply tank on purpose to drop to a lower MMR bracket and very likely finish #1, not to mention you'll win your fights more quickly too against weak opposition.