Funbalancing Queue Update?

Polares

pasa_ wrote:

Polares wrote:

The problem with spidey (a part from 230 lvl characters) is that with him you allmost allways win all matches in PvP, it is the same witch characters you use for defense, it is not important. Maybe you will need more time, but it is irrelevant.

I thought everyone "allmost allways win all matches in PvP" with or without spidey. And time is more than relevant.

But now you could say that you win 95 out of 100 or even more. Without Spidey and CMags that percentage should change quite a lot, probably to something more like 4 out of 5, or 9 out of 10. And time in PvP is important but not that decisive.

Right now you don't really care witch team are you going to use for defense because you know you are going to loose no matter what, but without Spidey and CMags characters like Hulk, Thor or BP could be very important in defense. Now the only character that can hurt you a little bit is a 3/5/5 OBW if she can fire agressive recon very very fast.

pasa_ wrote:

DaveyPitch wrote:

For me, the Classic Mags nerf is really quite easy. Simply bump up the AP cost of both blue and red, and increase their power levels slightly, so you get a better defensive tile with blue, and a bigger damage with red. As it stands, blue is too easy to use to throw out multiple powers in a row, and I only have it at level 4. Make it cost 8 AP with a stronger defensive tile, and people might start using it for the intended purpose (the defensive tiles), rather than for matching blue.

That is the very thing that ruins the game. Playing Mags was quite a game changer for me. As it like added a new mini-game. Instead of just the boring matches I have to look patterns to exploit and manage the board for different approach.

Wit cost of 8 it will go completely. Taking most of the newly discovered fun with it.

+1

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

dolfanpescao wrote:

Look at what happened to characters after nerf, nobody uses rags anymore, same as thor and wolvie, they become unplayable characters.

Rags indeed mostly disappeared, and it was because of bad overnerfing -- what might be goor as starting point but then should be adjusted a few weeks after.

But thor and wolvie? Disappeared? Unplayable? How many of them I fought in PVEs ever since?

And Wolvie's decline is not due to nerf but to rise of Patch taking over his position.

I see one of them every now and then, if I don't see a team of 141's, the most common team I see is obw, m.storm and ares ( a thor or wolvie instead of ares every now and then)

Unknown

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

In conjunction with community scaling, but yes, for the most part, your own fault.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

For winning my battles like I'm supposed to ?

Unknown

dolfanpescao wrote:

In the case of spiderman, he's the big equalizer in fights with lvl230 goons that can kill you with one shot, I don't have any character that can kill with a single shot and I face them all the time, soldiers, maggia, heroes and villains, spiderman at least gives me the chance to delay that certain death and compete.

I am so sick of hearing this argument. You guys have to come to the realization that Spiderman is the reason you are fighting a wall of 230s in the first place.

Spidey makes the scaling climb higher for multiple reasons:
1) Spidey allows teams to win fights they would have no other chance of winning increasing scaling across the whole community
2) You use Spidey to heal yourself which raises your personal scaling as well

In my observation, it is the people who don't understand how scaling works that don't want Spidey nerfed. It seems to me that most of the vets realize that Spidey needs to be changed. I'm not a big fan of nerfs in general but this one needs to be done. Spidey warps the game entirely by himself. He is a crutch that is making the game worse not only for yourself but for everyone.

Unknown

entropic01 wrote:

dolfanpescao wrote:

In the case of spiderman, he's the big equalizer in fights with lvl230 goons that can kill you with one shot, I don't have any character that can kill with a single shot and I face them all the time, soldiers, maggia, heroes and villains, spiderman at least gives me the chance to delay that certain death and compete.

I am so sick of hearing this argument. You guys have to come to the realization that Spiderman is the reason you are fighting a wall of 230s in the first place.

Spidey makes the scaling climb higher for multiple reasons:
1) Spidey allows teams to win fights they would have no other chance of winning increasing scaling across the whole community
2) You use Spidey to heal yourself which raises your personal scaling as well

In my observation, it is the people who don't understand how scaling works that don't want Spidey nerfed. It seems to me that most of the vets realize that Spidey needs to be changed. I'm not a big fan of nerfs in general but this one needs to be done. Spidey warps the game entirely by himself. He is a crutch that is making the game worse not only for yourself but for everyone.

To be fair, how many people out there even suspect that healing increase the scaling? It is not intuitive, to say the least. I otherwise agree with your points, even if I now think Funbalancing is not needed

Unknown

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

Don't you feel unnatural with those statements? Aren't games about winning? Those with healthy design?
Now seriously.

I'm playing for more than 3 decades and just fail to recall a SINGLE game where intentional losing or just general sloppy play and waste of resources was part of the way you're supposed to follow. (I don't claim such games not exist, just I never played any of those. Anyone?)

But if we accept that good use of resources -- that results in consistent win and win with all team health too -- is the natural thing, how you can post it as the player's fault?

To me it keeps looking like artifact from braindead design. What can be worked around once you learn the details behind the curtain, but it will no way puts the blame elsewhere.

Unknown

entropic01 wrote:

I am so sick of hearing this argument. You guys have to come to the realization that Spiderman is the reason you are fighting a wall of 230s in the first place.

Not spiderman directly, but some combination of eggheads and excel sheets.

Unknown

entropic01 wrote:

In my observation, it is the people who don't understand how scaling works that don't want Spidey nerfed.

That is how scaling works (probably, most of it is speculation) this week. It worked differently a few weeks ago. Chances are it will be change several times over. And it need not work like that or exist at all in the first place.

And as long as scaling is an obscure hidden thing in the background instead of something disclosed to the details and announced to all player of course peole just want what is natural: win another f-ing fight the game throws at them. And be able to start the next.

GumisK

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

Utter nonsense. I'm playing the game the way it is designed. In order to be succesful, I need to win as many battles as I can. The game gives me a tool to utilize (Spidey), which makes the goal achieveable with less pain. Afterwards, the game gives me a kick in the groin followed by a hammer smash to the head for using the tool it gave me in the first place. To make matters worse, Spidey wasn't given to me just like that - I needed to earn him first, and earn him the hard way, by competing. The prize to be won was making my future gaming easier and better, but actually, I'm being punished if it becomes so. To sum up, if the game punishes players for playing an integral part of the game, that's a design flaw, not the players' fault. Just lock Spidey out of PvE, problem fixed.

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

Don't you feel unnatural with those statements? Aren't games about winning? Those with healthy design?
Now seriously.

I'm playing for more than 3 decades and just fail to recall a SINGLE game where intentional losing or just general sloppy play and waste of resources was part of the way you're supposed to follow. (I don't claim such games not exist, just I never played any of those. Anyone?)

But if we accept that good use of resources -- that results in consistent win and win with all team health too -- is the natural thing, how you can post it as the player's fault?

To me it keeps looking like artifact from braindead design. What can be worked around once you learn the details behind the curtain, but it will no way puts the blame elsewhere.

Two players, one with Spidey and one without, are competing in a tournament. With all other things being equal, the player with spidey will always win the tourneys b/c his roster can survive longer due to timely stuns/stunlock and healing. In an attempt to equalize the amount of effort expended between these two players, they have implemented scaling. You're not being penalized for playing well, you're being equalized so that your veteran status (i.e. more developed roster) doesn't marginalize other players and / or roster choices.

It's not so much a question of "penalized for playing well" so much as it is "keeping the competitive environment as equal as possible".

Unknown

I finished first in everything, my alliance finished first in the first round, and I didn't use Spidey once. My battles are not difficult in round 2.

If you need a crutch, no harm in it. I used Spidey for most of my previous PVEs and I had a wall of 230s. I didn't complain because if you have Spidey you're good to go anyway. The fact that I'm not using Spidey (because he's boring as hell) means I don't need to worry about walls of 230s.

If you face a wall of 230s, it's your own fault, like I said.

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

Don't you feel unnatural with those statements? Aren't games about winning? Those with healthy design?
Now seriously.

I'm playing for more than 3 decades and just fail to recall a SINGLE game where intentional losing or just general sloppy play and waste of resources was part of the way you're supposed to follow. (I don't claim such games not exist, just I never played any of those. Anyone?)

But if we accept that good use of resources -- that results in consistent win and win with all team health too -- is the natural thing, how you can post it as the player's fault?

To me it keeps looking like artifact from braindead design. What can be worked around once you learn the details behind the curtain, but it will no way puts the blame elsewhere.

Again this cycles back to the **** scaling system being in place only because Spidey. The game has to continue to scale to ridiculous levels to keep some semblance of a challenge DUE to spidey. He is way too powerful for PVE (see my Galactus argument earlier in this thread)

Players dominating PVE --> Devs ramp difficulty --> Players rely on OP spidey --> Players dominating PVE --> Devs ramp difficulty --> Players rely on spidey even more

It is an endless loop that is in place because of one stupid 2AP ability that needs to go

Unknown

jozier wrote:

I finished first in everything, my alliance finished first in the first round, and I didn't use Spidey once. My battles are not difficult in round 2.

If you need a crutch, no harm in it. I used Spidey for most of my previous PVEs and I had a wall of 230s. I didn't complain because if you have Spidey you're good to go anyway. The fact that I'm not using Spidey (because he's boring as hell) means I don't need to worry about walls of 230s.

If you face a wall of 230s, it's your own fault, like I said.

Or, as others have previously said, a flaw in design.

Unknown

gahudahu wrote:

Or, as others have previously said, a flaw in design.

A flaw in design that is in place because of Spidey.

Unknown

Don't use Spidey, problem solved.

Unknown

As I previously said, how many people know that healing increase scaling?

By the way, it is not completely related to Spidey. If I use boost, get lucky and wipe the other team and take few damages in the process, my scaling will go up as well.

Eddiemon

dolfanpescao wrote:

jozier wrote:

If you're seeing a wall of level 230s it's your own fault.

For winning my battles like I'm supposed to ?

It's like in a shooter where you complain that you are out of ammo.
You get told its your own fault and you respond
For firing my gun like I'm supposed to?

The game does not reward mindlessly attacking everything, it is designed not to be won by the people who simply throw time at the thing and grind everything down. Just as your shooter is designed for people who aim and select targets and not for those who spray full auto.

Unknown

gahudahu wrote:

As I previously said, how many people know that healing increase scaling?

By the way, it is not completely related to Spidey. If I use boost, get lucky and wipe the other team and take few damages in the process, my scaling will go up as well.

Gee, you use boosts, and you don't expect your enemies to get boosted?

There's a very simple formula for not being scaled to death:

Don't use crutches.