Funbalancing Queue Update?

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Comments

  • KaioShinDE
    KaioShinDE Posts: 265 Mover and Shaker
    Dormammu wrote:
    I hope Spider-Man is left alone. He's really not that over-powered. HIs heal takes a lot of matches to be effective (OBW is a much more effective healer), and beyond his stun he doesn't have that much to offer with low health and no offensive capability beyond match damage.

    I lol'ed. "Beyond his stun..." doesn't matter when his stun is completely game breaking.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    KaioShinDE wrote:
    Dormammu wrote:
    I hope Spider-Man is left alone. He's really not that over-powered. HIs heal takes a lot of matches to be effective (OBW is a much more effective healer), and beyond his stun he doesn't have that much to offer with low health and no offensive capability beyond match damage.

    I lol'ed. "Beyond his stun..." doesn't matter when his stun is completely game breaking.

    Other than his ability to kill your whole team, this character is totally balanced.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    KaioShinDE wrote:
    Dormammu wrote:
    I hope Spider-Man is left alone. He's really not that over-powered. HIs heal takes a lot of matches to be effective (OBW is a much more effective healer), and beyond his stun he doesn't have that much to offer with low health and no offensive capability beyond match damage.

    I lol'ed. "Beyond his stun..." doesn't matter when his stun is completely game breaking.

    How does his stun 'break the game'? It's not like the AI has any idea how to use it right, so if you're fighting against a Spidey he's pretty easy to take down. When I'm facing a team with Spidey I save him for last because I know he won't pull off some monster offensive power ability and cripple me. If he stuns me a bit here and there I can live with that, I have 2 other characters to roll on with.
  • KaioShinDE
    KaioShinDE Posts: 265 Mover and Shaker
    He breaks PvE not PvP. He makes level 230 (or any) fights completely pointless and trivial. And through that it also pushes the community scaling way higher than it naturally would be, to the detriment of the people not using Spidey too.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Dormammu wrote:
    KaioShinDE wrote:
    Dormammu wrote:
    I hope Spider-Man is left alone. He's really not that over-powered. HIs heal takes a lot of matches to be effective (OBW is a much more effective healer), and beyond his stun he doesn't have that much to offer with low health and no offensive capability beyond match damage.

    I lol'ed. "Beyond his stun..." doesn't matter when his stun is completely game breaking.

    How does his stun 'break the game'? It's not like the AI has any idea how to use it right, so if you're fighting against a Spidey he's pretty easy to take down. When I'm facing a team with Spidey I save him for last because I know he won't pull off some monster offensive power ability and cripple me. If he stuns me a bit here and there I can live with that, I have 2 other characters to roll on with.


    Spidey making pink matches when there's tiles out is what stops you in your tracks 1/2 the time.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu wrote:
    KaioShinDE wrote:
    Dormammu wrote:
    I hope Spider-Man is left alone. He's really not that over-powered. HIs heal takes a lot of matches to be effective (OBW is a much more effective healer), and beyond his stun he doesn't have that much to offer with low health and no offensive capability beyond match damage.

    I lol'ed. "Beyond his stun..." doesn't matter when his stun is completely game breaking.

    How does his stun 'break the game'? It's not like the AI has any idea how to use it right, so if you're fighting against a Spidey he's pretty easy to take down. When I'm facing a team with Spidey I save him for last because I know he won't pull off some monster offensive power ability and cripple me. If he stuns me a bit here and there I can live with that, I have 2 other characters to roll on with.

    Just because a character is fine on defense doesn't mean that he isn't imbalanced. Under your logic a character with the move "Win the game when you use this move, but the AI can't use this move on defense" is perfectly balanced and belongs in the game. The point is that Spidey trivializes offense and warps the game, as you can see from the devs scaling pve missions to level 230 in the past almost solely because of Spidey.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I agree with Psyko. Spidey's purple annoys me more than his stun could ever hope to. Those tiles get damn strong if he matches purple with a few web tiles around.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Okay, you guys have convinced me. I'm sick of fighting level 230 guys, even with my Spider-Man. Nerf the hell out of him.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I put an argument together in another thread on why I think Spidey needs to be nerfed and nerfed hard.
    Entropic01 wrote:
    Let’s go to an extreme situation where the devs make this fight against Galactus. Galactus has 100,000 HP and has an ability that costs 1 of any AP and that ability instantly kills your entire team.
    Is this encounter beatable? Yes
    Is this encounter beatable w/o Spider-man? No
    If you don’t see how that restricts design space and limits what devs can do for a challenging encounter and how it pigeonholes you into specific rosters, that’s fine but we have very different design philosophies.

    I think Spidey does far more damage in PVE than PVP but I think he clearly warps both environments.
  • Dormammu
    Dormammu Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    entropic01 wrote:
    I put an argument together in another thread on why I think Spidey needs to be nerfed and nerfed hard.
    Entropic01 wrote:
    Let’s go to an extreme situation where the devs make this fight against Galactus. Galactus has 100,000 HP and has an ability that costs 1 of any AP and that ability instantly kills your entire team.
    Is this encounter beatable? Yes
    Is this encounter beatable w/o Spider-man? No
    If you don’t see how that restricts design space and limits what devs can do for a challenging encounter and how it pigeonholes you into specific rosters, that’s fine but we have very different design philosophies.

    I think Spidey does far more damage in PVE than PVP but I think he clearly warps both environments.

    I don't think Spidey should be able to defeat Galactus, so we're in total agreement. But he did kick the **** out of one of Galactus' heralds...
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Just look at the difference between enemy levels on Heroic Jugg and Simulator Basic if you need to be convinced of how Spiderman distorts PvE scaling.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Phantron wrote:
    Just look at the difference between enemy levels on Heroic Jugg and Simulator Basic if you need to be convinced of how Spiderman distorts PvE scaling.

    That's not a fair comparison. I don't disagree about spidey distorting PvE, but he doesn't do it alone. Jugg had a very limited roster selection so many probably didn't have maxed characters to choose from. With no roster limits people can field their best teams. Plus, Sim has several boosted characters where Juggs only had mThor and he was still very new. 5 blue Spidey is not that common.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    UncleSam wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    Just look at the difference between enemy levels on Heroic Jugg and Simulator Basic if you need to be convinced of how Spiderman distorts PvE scaling.

    That's not a fair comparison. I don't disagree about spidey distorting PvE, but he doesn't do it alone. Jugg had a very limited roster selection so many probably didn't have maxed characters to choose from. With no roster limits people can field their best teams. Plus, Sim has several boosted characters where Juggs only had mThor and he was still very new. 5 blue Spidey is not that common.

    Modern Thor is one of the strongest character and he's boosted by 90 levels there.

    You can give people everyone except Spiderman and Magneto and the outcome wouldn't have been very different. Sure having The Punisher over Psylocke would be a solid upgrade, but it's not going to be enough to stop the bleeding you take from all these Headbutts.
  • Kavel
    Kavel Posts: 85
    entropic01 wrote:
    I put an argument together in another thread on why I think Spidey needs to be nerfed and nerfed hard.
    Entropic01 wrote:
    Let’s go to an extreme situation where the devs make this fight against Galactus. Galactus has 100,000 HP and has an ability that costs 1 of any AP and that ability instantly kills your entire team.
    Is this encounter beatable? Yes
    Is this encounter beatable w/o Spider-man? No
    If you don’t see how that restricts design space and limits what devs can do for a challenging encounter and how it pigeonholes you into specific rosters, that’s fine but we have very different design philosophies.

    I think Spidey does far more damage in PVE than PVP but I think he clearly warps both environments.

    You don't balance characters around completely made-up fights that will never be in the game. I could dream up a dozen crazy scenarios beatable only by one specific character.

    The risk with Spidey is running out of blue even just long enough (or not gathering enough blue soon enough) to prevent a chain of specials. That happens, and when it does, things can go bad quickly.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    2 ap abilities in general need to go the way of the dinosaur. Not so much that they are overpowered as they are annoying. I get tired of seeing the same Mags and Spidey's animation over and over again.

    I still think Spidey needs to be a good group stunner and healer. They made him a utility character and if he doesn't have good utility he'll end up another Rags and the game doesn't need that.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Kavel wrote:

    You don't balance characters around completely made-up fights that will never be in the game. I could dream up a dozen crazy scenarios beatable only by one specific character.

    The risk with Spidey is running out of blue even just long enough (or not gathering enough blue soon enough) to prevent a chain of specials. That happens, and when it does, things can go bad quickly.

    That specific situation obviously isn't my point. The point is to make a challenging fight with Spidey in the environment, they have to go to bigger and bigger extremes (IE wall of 230 fights). The problem with that though is the wall of 230 fights makes Spidey even more prominent and it just becomes a vicious cycle.

    Can I beat 230 fights all day? Sure but it's not fun and getting 20 iso out of it is just painful
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I don't like there being any ability that is cheaper than 4 or 5.
  • GumisK
    GumisK Posts: 372 Mover and Shaker
    Spider-Man breaking PvE is a serious issue, and that's a fact. However, as I stated before, I don't find him too powerful in regular PvP tourneys. The question is, can the devs make the nerf with such carfeul consideration and finesse, that he no longer destroys PvE, but still is a reasonable option in PvP? How about locking him out of most PvE events, and leaving him there for the players to use in PvP? I know it's not an elegant solution at all, but just a thought that crossed my mind. Would we need an all-230 Ares/Juggs/Moonstone node to make the fight really challenging, if Spidey was out of reach?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    IceIX wrote:
    The funbalancing queue still exists. It's still on a burner (not the back one), but we don't have much heat on it at the moment. Getting stronger Alliance controls and features are higher up on the list at the moment and taking up more of the designer time. We still intend to get back to these at some point.

    While this is incredibly disappointing news, I appreciate you being honest about it rather than staying silent. Hopefully progress on these characters (and more, IM40 cough cough) are coming soon. My X-Force is approaching full covers, and it's been a goal of mine since I started playing, but.. well, he's trash currently, and I'm painfully hyped about whatever potential rework you have in store for him down the line.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    GumisK wrote:
    Spider-Man breaking PvE is a serious issue, and that's a fact. However, as I stated before, I don't find him too powerful in regular PvP tourneys. The question is, can the devs make the nerf with such carfeul consideration and finesse, that he no longer destroys PvE, but still is a reasonable option in PvP? How about locking him out of most PvE events, and leaving him there for the players to use in PvP? I know it's not an elegant solution at all, but just a thought that crossed my mind. Would we need an all-230 Ares/Juggs/Moonstone node to make the fight really challenging, if Spidey was out of reach?

    Yeah, heroic juggs event showed it was possible - unfortunately, we ended up replacing Spidey/scaling complaints with complaints that the roster was too limited, and that people couldn't use their A-teamers. I think there's a middle ground to be found for PvE for sure, and for PvP you're right; he's not a game breaker there due to the way he extends match length.

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