Double-tap apologies

zonatahunt

Evening all,

So, throughout most the PvP battle we are forced to ask ourselves "to double-tap, or not to double-tap?" Personally, I always try to hit an opponent only once during each climb. I can climb multiple times during a single PvP event, so I will regularly hit the same person multiple times...it's just that the game almost immediately forces me to seriously consider whether I should hit someone in successive games. The way the MMR is set up, I see the same five people for almost a 600-700 point window. Once I clear a certain point total, then I'll start seeing the next tier's five opponents. I want to be respectful, I want to not double-tap an opponent, but most days I can only play at a certain time of the day and also within a certain time frame. Therefore, if I do most of my day's climb in one session, if I'm only seeing the same five opponents, then I'm seriously forced to double-tap opponents if I want to make the climb worth anything. The game's MMR is certifiably screwy. One of it's most glaring problems forces us to play with diminished gaming morals.

So, in complete and total honesty, I'm very sorry to anyone out there I've double-tapped in the past, and to those I'll do in the future.

I truly hope Demiurge addresses this issue with haste.

TheDude_Abides

JamieMadrox

I make no apologies. If I'm trying to climb to # and you're worth the most points and not a friendly then you're getting hit. Nothing personal, not targeting you or anything, I'm just trying to get as many points as possible as quickly as possible.

jredd

sometimes, there is literally one winnable match between the 3 that keep rotating when you skip. if that happens to be the same guy, what can you do?

sorry...

Quebbster

jredd wrote:

sometimes, there is literally one winnable match between the 3 that keep rotating when you skip. if that happens to be the same guy, what can you do?

sorry...

Yeah, I try to avoid intentional double tapping when I can, but I don't want to flush away loads of ISO skipping just because it is slightly inconvenient for someone else.

Polares

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I make no apologies. If I'm trying to climb to # and you're worth the most points and not a friendly then you're getting hit. Nothing personal, not targeting you or anything, I'm just trying to get as many points as possible as quickly as possible.

Is nice to see that there are still gentlemen in this game... Oh wait.

I double tap because the searching mechanism in this game is ****, and sometimes you can only find the same teams over and over again, but I hate doing it, and attitudes like yours don't help AT ALL. Those teams you are double or triple hitting are people playing too, and you are making their lives harder, just because (most of the times there are other teams to hit). It is very easy in this game to queue people and hit them after some minutes, so they have time to finish their fight and shield and then you can hit them for even higher scores. This not only helps them it also helps you in the long run (if nobody loses points the system has higher scores so it is much easier to climb, etc.). And if everybody would do the same it would be much much easier to hit progression for everybody.

Now, that I am in 5 land I have been suffering some new problems, and it is that because the pool of targets for champed 5s is smaller it is much easier that you are selected as a target whit very big differences in score. Retaliations for 1 point, where you lose 70+ in just one fight are common, and this should not be possible (or at least I don't think it should be desirable).

simonsez

Depends on the situation. If someone is floating between 800 and 1000 with a relatively ordinary formation, you kinda get the feeling that they're looking to dump points to farm ISO. On the other hand, if I'm sitting at 400 and someone hits me twice, it makes me wonder what I did to piss them off, since there are tons of other easier targets out there at that point level.

JamieMadrox

Polares wrote:

Jamie Madrox wrote:

I make no apologies. If I'm trying to climb to # and you're worth the most points and not a friendly then you're getting hit. Nothing personal, not targeting you or anything, I'm just trying to get as many points as possible as quickly as possible.

Is nice to see that there are still gentlemen in this game... Oh wait.

I double tap because the searching mechanism in this game is tinykitty, and sometimes you can only find the same teams over and over again, but I hate doing it, and attitudes like yours don't help AT ALL. Those teams you are double or triple hitting are people playing too, and you are making their lives harder, just because (most of the times there are other teams to hit). It is very easy in this game to queue people and hit them after some minutes, so they have time to finish their fight and shield and then you can hit them for even higher scores. This not only helps them it also helps you in the long run (if nobody loses points the system has higher scores so it is much easier to climb, etc.). And if everybody would do the same it would be much much easier to hit progression for everybody.

Now, that I am in 5 land I have been suffering some new problems, and it is that because the pool of targets for champed 5s is smaller it is much easier that you are selected as a target whit very big differences in score. Retaliations for 1 point, where you lose 70+ in just one fight are common, and this should not be possible (or at least I don't think it should be desirable).

I generally climb early. 99% of the time the people I am hitting are not shield hopping yet so waiting for them to shield is not an option. I'm usually amongst the first group in my slice to start shield hopping. So we're the ones making the points. It's not like I'm hitting people over and over and then dumping points to do it again. Points aren't magically made from out of nowhere. Frontrunners need to hit people to make the points for the rest of the slice.

mpqr7

Unfortunately, it's tap or be tapped. Every second I look to avoid double-tapping someone, then suddenly I'm losing 300 points because I was too nice to someone else. So there's no incentive for me to be nice.

It would be great if whenever you shielded, it saved the maximum amount of points you got in that hop. It's very frustrating when the following situation occurs:

Unshield at 1100.
Win 4 battles, rise to 1400.
Do one more battle for 75 points... learn that you got hit twice and are now at 1375 points.
Try again, and learn that you're now at 1350.
Try once more, and learn that you're now at 1250. Shield in frustration.

So you could have stopped right at 1400, you aimed for 1475 and you ended up at 1250, barely above where you had started (1100).

So in the future you just stop at 1400 and don't try more, I guess. It just seems like you are being punished for trying harder. I guess you're supposed to shield after every 3-4 battles (I won't do that, because I never shield more than twice per pvp.. it's a waste of hp to do that). It's just very annoying when it happens.

PeterGibbons316

I'm with Jamie. I try to be nice, but I'm trying to play too, and I can't hold hits on everyone - so some people get hit as I climb.

Climbing early is very different than climbing late. There aren't as many available targets early in the event so if it feels like I'm picking on you early I'm not, you are just the only non-friendly player I can queue. When I'm climbing late there are usually a lot more targets available and so I can usually cycle my fights so that I get two battles in after I queue someone before I hit them. I'll still double/triple people even but the hits are coming in once every 6-7 minutes, not back to back.

mpqr7

Getting multiple hits early on isn't a big deal to me. I mostly just float until the last 8 hours, so I can't blame people for attacking me when I'm within the top 50. I usually don't break top 50 when floating, so then people are more likely to leave me alone and go after a higher target.

It's really more annoying when I'm trying to make the final push for 1300. But there's little that can be done.

Quebbster

Getting multi-tapped early isn't a big deal, it's easy enough to climb back up. It's when you are doing the last climb that it gets annoying.

Lightning_Man

I try not to double tap, but when the game matches me to the same 40 pt person after I just beat him, and all the other matches are worth 6, you sometimes have to fight again in order to advance. I do try to allow proper baking time for cupcakes, but I'll eat two of them if I need to get points quickly. The bad MMR is really to blame for why we have to double up at all.

Pylgrim

Yep, I do try to avoid double-tapping and I am generally sucessful, but when the only choices that the game gives me after skipping dozens of times are a double-tap, a bunch of 10-15 points people (that can easily win a retaliation) and a 75 point match against two 450+ 5*s and a max-championed 3*, you can bet I'll do the double tap.

amusingfoo1

Polares wrote:

Now, that I am in 5 land I have been suffering some new problems, and it is that because the pool of targets for champed 5s is smaller it is much easier that you are selected as a target whit very big differences in score. Retaliations for 1 point, where you lose 70+ in just one fight are common, and this should not be possible (or at least I don't think it should be desirable).

Yeah, it's not uncommon to finish the seeds and queue folks at 1k+ in 5*-land. Very weird. Sometimes helpful (if, say, I queue a friend at 1k, then hold the queue until they shield), sometimes a pain (when I'm at the high end and it isn't a friend). And it's a lot more common to be stuck cycling the same 5-8 queues over and over. I don't know if it happens in 3* land, but I remember it happening occasionally in 4* land. But in 5* land, it happens at least once per event, and can be seriously frustrating if all of those queues are friendly (or vastly higher level than you). And to bring this back to the original topic, it can be very difficult to avoid double- (or even triple-) tapping someone when this occurs.

fight4thedream

I offer no apologies either but unlike Jamie I do the late climb because I have learned that if I climb early I end up with a lot of people on my "naughty list" and end up spending way too much time and ISO giving them the ol' heave-ho.

My play style is aggressive mostly because I find "standard" PvP boring since I am fighting the same OML/PHX over and over again (with the occasional random switch up of OML/SS or BSS or OML/flavor of the week 4*). While I understand the importance of baking and respect those committed to that practice, to me it seems more like a game of tea and biscuits than "proper competition"(whatever that means):

"Good morning Mr. Stank I noticed you are worth 65 points would you happen to have your defenses fortified at the moment?"
"No, Ms. Peppermint, my troops are currently out at the moment. If you wouldn't mind waiting another hour or so until they return, I'll be sure to be worth a full 75 points for your trouble."
"Why certainly Mr. Stank, please do carry on and send word once you're ready for me to knock upon your door."
"Why I do say, Ms. Peppermint, I certainly look forward to you knocking on my door. I'll be sure to have a nice juicy treat ready for your visit."
"As I the same, Mr. Stank, as I the same."

But unfortunately baking is not my cup of tea.

Rather I prefer to color my PvP experience in the blood and tears of my "enemies" (not in RL mind you) and challenge rivals to duels which often leads me to hitting people quite a few times. Outside of special cases, I don't usually keep count but I am pretty sure it goes well over two. And believe you me, I have earned the ire of many a player and have made my share of "enemies" which has pretty much guaranteed that I won't be getting T1 ever but it's a price I'm willing to pay for my fun.

I figure considering my playstyle I have to be willing to take as much as I give and I will tell you one of the most fun moments I had playing PvP was a 2.5 hour play session between me and a group of snipers who were trying to keep me from reaching 1300. Most reasonable players would have just shielded around 1200 but that day I was feeling especially feisty and was up for the challenge so I went toe to toe with them until finally they gave up or had some RL obligations and crossed on over 1300 for that sweet sweet final progression reward. Good times!

Nowadays, as I previously stated I just do the late climb to save everyone including myself from the shenanigans that ensues when I get hit but I am always down for a game of chicken (a retal war to 1300 with only an hour left on the clock) or "Finding Francis" (a la Deadpool).

And of course none of it is personal. I'm aware my antics probably come at the expense of someone else's frustration but as the people of the Americas often say "Don't hate the player, hate the game" or "No odies al jugador, odia al juego". Versus is after all competition and I find it curious people feel the need to moralize it in some way.

Sure I understand why people in alliances and truces might apologize for friendly fire since you have an agreement not to hit each other but why a person with ostensibly no such agreements feels that way is beyond me. If you play a game of chess and win, do you suddenly feel bad for your opponent? If you crush a friend in Street Fighter repeatedly do you suddenly sympathize with their frustration? Sure you might go easier on them but in my opinion you are not "respecting" them and eventually the game grows boring and you make it a point not to play SF with them anymore.

But through the wonders of MMR, for better or worse, I am constantly matched with players around my level. Furthermore, due to the changes to MMR and my late climbing, I no longer see CCs very often (maybe once every two or three events?). And if I lose a match, heaven forbid, then I feel compelled to seek out the same player to "get my points back" (just a friendly tip if you happen to notice I wiped on your team. Fight will in all likelihood be coming around again for another try).

With all that said, I am not a complete monster (at least not yet). Usually I only hit those that I have a history with. If I happen to hit someone "new" and they retal, no sweat. If they go for the double tap then it's on like bacon on Sunday morning which means they get put on Fight's ok to hit list (but Fight didn't you hit them first? *shhh*). If I get double tapped by some random dude they get put on the naughty list. And if I am triple tapped then next event and probably the rest of the season is about "Finding Francis" hehe. Hey, a merc's gotta do what a merc's gotta do.

Usually Finding Francis doesn't go on for too long since I lose interest and am not one to hold a grudge. But it certainly makes for more interesting PvP experiences!

Anyhoo, my whole point is this is just a game. There are different play styles and no "right way" to play. If you want to bake, then bake, snipe then snipe, enforce then enforce, not play then don't play. I don't see the point of trying to moralize the decision making of a match 3 game competition. Play as you will. The big dude in the sky will not strike you down for double tapping someone. He may however, send cascades of doom your way for not helping to stop that burglar because you were too busy playing a mobile phone game to do some real good in the world. But just do you.

And once again I have said too much! Happy playing everybody!!

mckauhu

I'm very sorry but I don't even look the names I hit or remember them very well... So I just hit the highest points possible, nothing personal. I try to keep an eye for names too from now on.

SnowcaTT

I try to not double-tap when possible.

That said, now that I'm in 5* land it is just impossible to find people. I spent 5,000 ISO last night to try to find a third non-Rhulk/OML team....to no avail. [A bunch of those teams had champed SS or Phoenix but were running Rhulk instead....nope, OML isn't a problem at all, nope....]

I really wish they'd open up MMR much, much wider - this would really help the double-tap problem.

revskip

I just recently started playing PVP in earnest so I probably double tapped a few folks when I was first dipping my toe in the water if for no other reason than because they were the only opponent I could reasonably beat with my roster. I've also been double and triple tapped a couple of times but didn't really have bad feelings about it because my usual strategy for PVP was get to X progression reward and then stop without really worrying about placement or the final score. Doing that allowed me to get to the 4K season reward although I never ended an event with more than 400 or so points.

The last few PVP events I have actually been using shields and trying to hit some of the loftier (for my roster) progression points. I managed my first 1k last night in the Beast PVP and made it to ~850 in the Peggy PVP before the matches I was being offered got too hard to continue. I could see how getting double tapped would be annoying when trying to climb to the higher rewards but I get that I am the lowest hanging fruit right now with just 3* champs so can't really worry about it too much. I try not to do it to others now but again there are only so many other people with rosters similar to mine at the higher point totals that it sometimes is a necessity.

I will say this, a giant thank you to the wonderful people out there throwing out cupcakes. Without you guys I would have never hit 1k last night. I found two cupcakes just before my penultimate shield which were both 70+ points and those two easy and quick matches allowed me to get in, grab the points and hit my final shield. I made sure to queue them up during my shield and gave them each 20 minutes before hitting them when my shield expired, super cool of them to do that since every other team I was seeing featured a tough boosted Rulk which I can beat with boosts but not quickly.

JamieMadrox

PeterGibbons316

fight4thedream wrote:

Sure I understand why people in alliances and truces might apologize for friendly fire since you have an agreement not to hit each other but why a person with ostensibly no such agreements feels that way is beyond me. If you play a game of chess and win, do you suddenly feel bad for your opponent? If you crush a friend in Street Fighter repeatedly do you suddenly sympathize with their frustration? Sure you might go easier on them but in my opinion you are not "respecting" them and eventually the game grows boring and you make it a point not to play SF with them anymore.

The difference is that those games are purely 1v1 PvP. MPQ uses the players to fight a player vs. developer war for them. Intentionally trying to keep someone from hitting 1300 is just mean spirited. If you want to fight over placement that's fine, but there is no reason to try to prevent other players from hitting progression. They are people just like you trying to progress through a game, why deprive them of that?

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE getting in to retal wars with people. Went back and forth with an old friend this past event for probably a dozen retals each (he has the stronger roster and easily won the war, but it was fun), and we each left with an additional 2k ISO probably. But that was well over 24h before event end, and we were both in queue hell anyway. Rivalries are great for early climbs, but late they only add frustration to an already frustrating experience.

zonatahunt

Well, I think most of you summed up what I was trying to say; if it weren't for this game's horrendous MMR no one would really be forced to double tap. Yes, I understand that when you're climbing, the opponent worth the most points will be hit. But repeatedly having to hit the same opponent over and over because the **** targeting mechanism in the game is ****...well, I don't like participating in that behavior. I have, do, and will though...because that's the broken **** game the devs continue to toll out to us.

In short, devs, please fix your targeting mechanism, as I think there's a lot of us out here that'd prefer to participate in better gamesmanship.