[PVE] scaling [Merged Thread]

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  • Akari
    Akari Posts: 492 Mover and Shaker
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    Pylgrim wrote:
    Akari wrote:
    Hey everyone,

    I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

    We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

    When Civil War first started, before the insane scaling bump, there was a node with a level 100 OML. Your statement is false...

    Read the further clarification. Changes made to the scaling of 5*s in CW were part of the problem with the gauntlet.

    I don't quite get that from his post, actually. The initial Civil War scaling and subsequent bump were not addressed at all in his clarification.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx wrote:

    You think there is basically no difference between "attempting and failing to implement a positive change" and "incompetence"?

    Not the way I meant it, no. Incompetence the noun, as in in this case people were not competent. Not incompetent the adjective, as in "these people are as a general rule incompetent".

    If I make a good faith effort to make your car run better and cut your brake lines, my good intentions don't absolve me of my mistake.

    In this case, it seems like a good faith effort to improve the player experience by letting us fight five-star characters in the Gauntlet led to a spke in scaling that snuck through all the playtestings. Which is more detail than we often get, which I appreciate, even if it leaves a lot of the "why" and "how" unanswered.

    This gauntlet scaling thing was a fairly big oversight as far as this game goes. But cutting brake lines is hardly a fair analogy. Demiurge could do something insane (like making every match a heroic-PVE-style map that costs 120 CP and forces you to play with a 1* roster against original Galactus) and it still wouldn't be a fair analogy to cutting brake lines because the worst possible thing outcome for MPQ (the game isn't fun and you don't play it) is nowhere near as bad as the worst outcome from a cut brake line (you get in an awful crash and 1 or more people die).

    I think that's sort of my point. you are equating development mistakes for a mobile game with borderline criminal negligence. It's just not realistic for players to expect the devs to be perfect. They will make mistakes. We should absolutely point out those mistakes, and we should clamor for them to be fixed as soon as possible (and for compensation where appropriate). But we should not set the bar so high that a failure to implement some change perfectly if must be either (i) incompetent, or (ii) malicious, or (iii) under a malicious influence.
  • biryon
    biryon Posts: 148 Tile Toppler
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    If I'm understanding this correctly, the essential nodes in CW were also unintentionally higher than they should have been, because of the new system allowing downward scaling 5*s. If so, could you please fix this for the next run of CW? We had essential nodes scaled higher than our highest boosted characters, while also being required to use a 1 cover character that just got released.
  • Electrovirus
    Electrovirus Posts: 64 Match Maker
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    Leadggb wrote:
    Hey everyone,



    Can you acknowledge the concerns from this thread about a fundamental issue with this game: As your roster gets better, everything scales up, but the rewards remain the same. In fact, you get put into a harder bracket, so you actually get worse rewards for upgrading your roster.

    Is it intentional that you get punished for progressing your roster? If not, what are you doing to improve on this aspect of the game?

    Why should someone get more rewards when their roster gets better?
  • ThatOneGuyjp189512
    ThatOneGuyjp189512 Posts: 543 Critical Contributor
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    this is seriously the worst event i've ever played, and i was here for the first PVE test....so yeah worse than that. Hope you guys are gonna get this stuff fixed....and when you say you're working on it i honestly don't believe you anymore since you've so many times tried to "fix" something(I.E. PVE, Civil War) and then broken something else even worse(Gauntlet)
  • Electrovirus
    Electrovirus Posts: 64 Match Maker
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    You need more subs to play in Gauntlet. 3 Subs for the whole spectrum of levels and power is not enough. Set the scaling to the way it was but with one or two more subs. Have the last subs for high level 4 star and 5 star rosters with rewards suited for them. You have stretched out and increased the levels and power the heroes can get but kept the number of subs the same, trying to cater beginners and top end rosters with thre subs has made the difficulty increase way to fast. I was looking forward to maybe finishing gauntlet for the first time but after about 2/3 the way through the first sub I was like enough of that Im gonna go play some PVP.

    I really don't think the problem is the number of subs. After all, more subs just means more need for health packs and a longer grind. And the whole idea of "rewards suited for [high level rosters]" is a pipe dream - if they made the experience longer, it'd just mean more grinding for the same rewards, not more grinding for more rewards.

    The rewards get better from subs one to three so it isn't a stretch to think sub 4 and 5 would have better rewards as well. Aso for more health packs and a longer grind, well it is a gauntlet so that should be expected.
  • Bryan Lambert
    Bryan Lambert Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
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    Vhailorx wrote:
    This gauntlet scaling thing was a fairly big oversight as far as this game goes. But cutting brake lines is hardly a fair analogy.

    I had a feeling that wqas the part you'd get hung up on. It wasn't meant to be analagous to the severity. I just don't have a huge list of things that can go wrong with cars at the ready, and most of them are from 70's cop shows.

    That's why I went and put a whole chunk in about what they actually did after making the point that you can't type 'they meant well, but screwed up" without "they screwed up". Screwing up is classified under incompetence. Not as a character flaw, not as a general indicator of an overall ability to do their job. That'd require a regular, consistent pattern of making mistakes like this.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Why should someone get more rewards when their roster gets better?

    Because your demands are higher.
    500 ISO is a lot for a 1* or 2* roster. It's a drop in the bucket when you're trying to level up a 4*.

    So you end up going against much harder enemies, or at best enemies just as hard as before, for a reward that's worth much less than before.

    It's like if you went to work every day and got paid the same amount if you did 3 hours of work or 9 hours.
  • madsalad
    madsalad Posts: 815 Critical Contributor
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    Vhailorx wrote:
    This gauntlet scaling thing was a fairly big oversight as far as this game goes. But cutting brake lines is hardly a fair analogy.

    I had a feeling that wqas the part you'd get hung up on. It wasn't meant to be analagous to the severity. I just don't have a huge list of things that can go wrong with cars at the ready, and most of them are from 70's cop shows.

    That's why I went and put a whole chunk in about what they actually did after making the point that you can't type 'they meant well, but screwed up" without "they screwed up". Screwing up is classified under incompetence. Not as a character flaw, not as a general indicator of an overall ability to do their job. That'd require a regular, consistent pattern of making mistakes like this.

    How about "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?
  • Xidex
    Xidex Posts: 12 Just Dropped In
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    I have maxed 4* Cyclop and pass out Gauntlet's 2 of 3 stages without ANY problem (now passing part 3). Once I used whales of dp 3* on the node with cyc 3* and thor 3* (because I can't use my 4* versions). All other missions wasn't difficult. Yes, it looks scary when you see level 400 enemies, but with boosted 4* they can't do nothing! The only problem - healthpacks if you get couple of punches from enemies. But they are free if you are not in a hurry!
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Xidex wrote:
    I have maxed 4* Cyclop and pass out Gauntlet's 2 of 3 stages without ANY problem (now passing part 3). Once I used whales of dp 3* on the node with cyc 3* and thor 3* (because I can't use my 4* versions). All other missions wasn't difficult. Yes, it looks scary when you see level 400 enemies, but with boosted 4* they can't do nothing! The only problem - healthpacks if you get couple of punches from enemies. But they are free if you are not in a hurry!

    Yes, boosted 4* champs are incredibly powerful right now (that's an underlying part of the scaling problem in that champion levels are now much much more important than regular levels. This is why normal boosted 3*s are weaker than they used to be. Only boosted 3* champs are really useful anymore).

    And this week's roster of boosted 4*s is rather weak. Cyclops is just about the only top tier available (Punisher max is also good by report, but so few people have him in a usable state it's kind of moot). So for those few people with a champed cyclops, this event might be reasonably manageable. But it doesn't really make sense to have a scaling system in place if that system makes things incredibly hard for everyone EXCEPT those who happen to have the weekly boosted 4*s (for whom the event is quite easy).
  • pheregas
    pheregas Posts: 1,721 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx wrote:
    Civil war was a great example of how to do pve without the need for scaling. Everyone plays the same event. But the difficult ratchets up with each round, gradually shrinking the pool of players able to get the top rewards. And because there were two events no one was ever unable to play anything. Weaker teams that cpuodbhabdle rounds 6-8 could just switch to the other side and keep playing.

    The gauntlet theoretically offers the same experience (but not when nodes hit 300+ before the end of the first sub!)
    (note, this only refers to the boss nodes. The sub nodes were scaled, and we're a bit too high, a la the gauntlet.)


    Agreed. Until we all collectively got hit with the big fat scaling stick 24 hours later. Glad my alliance made it up to Level 7 before that happened. It was all I could do after switching over to the other side just to beat the guardian nodes. If I got past those, boss-man got the royal smackdown. The key word there was "if." Lost interest in continuing due to the insane scaling.
  • Philly484
    Philly484 Posts: 173 Tile Toppler
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    My thing is I have a few of the Top Tier 4* champed so I myself am not having too much difficulty. However, with that said this doesn't mean it is enjoyable or making me take pride in being able to defeat these highly challenging nodes. I'm not understanding where the real disconnect with D3 and the player base is coming from. There has been a large outcry for scaling over the last year. It doesn't seem like to much avail any attempt to address or fix this has occurred. Sorry but just because it sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it is a good idea. Plus it is the fact that Reward issues are not being addressed. If the devs want to have people eventually have 5* tiers then leveling and rewards need to be revamped again.
  • JarvisJackrabbit
    JarvisJackrabbit Posts: 232 Tile Toppler
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    Leadggb wrote:
    Hey everyone,



    Can you acknowledge the concerns from this thread about a fundamental issue with this game: As your roster gets better, everything scales up, but the rewards remain the same. In fact, you get put into a harder bracket, so you actually get worse rewards for upgrading your roster.

    Is it intentional that you get punished for progressing your roster? If not, what are you doing to improve on this aspect of the game?

    Why should someone get more rewards when their roster gets better?

    This makes sense. While I've only been playing MPQ for a few months, I'm a top 50 global player of Spider-Man Unlimited, and this is largely how rewards are given in that game.

    A player's tier is based on his or her highest team multiplier (you run with four characters and use a different one each time you have to continue). There are different versions of standard and premium portals at each tier, with the maximum tier's portals containing more high ranking characters along with a 2x probability of pulling one of them on top of it. Event portals are the same for everyone but cost more ISO-8. Making a cash purchase unlocks the VIP portal, which is 3x the ISO-8 cost of the premium portal and contains 8* characters, while the premium portal only goes to 7*. Portal pulls and ISO-8 are earned as leaderboard and progression rewards in events.

    This tiered portal systems facilitates (or limits players to) a rather linear path of progression from low to high level characters and team multipliers. I currently have 52 roster slots in MPQ and have had to sell a number of 4* covers (IW, Elektra, Wolverine...) because having one of each of those covers wasn't going to do me any good. I have around ten legendary pulls I could make (between tokens and CP), but I'm not going to start using them until I'm ready to transition into 4* land. My two highest 3* characters only have six covers, so this transition won't be happening for some time.

    IDK, does that make sense?
  • Mark70
    Mark70 Posts: 24 Just Dropped In
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    I have 3 5- stars I have not leveled, no maxed 4-stars, and a,bunch of 3-star champions. My nodes are much harder than ever before.I was loosing in the first round, that never happened before, at least not for a long time.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Vhailorx wrote:
    Yes, boosted 4* champs are incredibly powerful right now (that's an underlying part of the scaling problem in that champion levels are now much much more important than regular levels. This is why normal boosted 3*s are weaker than they used to be. Only boosted 3* champs are really useful anymore).

    And only if they're max champed, apparently.
    I remember a boosted Kamala would do about 5500 or 6000 for her green attack. Now if she's boosted and champed she'll do about 4500 or there abouts. So you'll need to pump a load of covers into her just to get her up to the damage she used to do.

    Meanwhile 4* characters are going from strength to strength. They weren't nerfed and are only getting stronger with each cover you feed them.
  • gigatilburg29
    gigatilburg29 Posts: 88 Match Maker
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    Nerf the 3 tier and upscale the difficulty......wow
  • MojoWild
    MojoWild Posts: 765 Critical Contributor
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    Hey everyone,

    I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

    We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

    Will there be an official announcement stickied post, and/or an in game splash to let people know that have given up or are dropping ISO on boosts and hp on health packs?
  • madsalad
    madsalad Posts: 815 Critical Contributor
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    MojoWild wrote:
    Hey everyone,

    I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

    We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

    Will there be an official announcement stickied post, and/or an in game splash to let people know that have given up or are dropping ISO on boosts and hp on health packs?

    Was just coming here to ask this since, remember, the forum community is not representative of the player base at large, think about all of those non-forumites that must be like "tinykitty this!"

    Some communication regarding when exactly you'll be flipping the difficulty switch off would be nice.
  • MojoWild
    MojoWild Posts: 765 Critical Contributor
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    madsalad wrote:
    MojoWild wrote:
    Hey everyone,

    I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

    We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

    Will there be an official announcement stickied post, and/or an in game splash to let people know that have given up or are dropping ISO on boosts and hp on health packs?

    Was just coming here to ask this since, remember, the forum community is not representative of the player base at large, think about all of those non-forumites that must be like "tinykitty this!"

    Some communication regarding when exactly you'll be flipping the difficulty switch off would be nice.

    Plus, I don't think a lot of forumites have even seen it, based on people still talking about the difficulty.