[PVE] scaling [Merged Thread]

thisone

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification Anthony.

Vhailorx

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

Thanks for the update. I am sure you guys were busy with the civil war rollout, but I think it would have been a good idea to announce this change in advance.

Secondly, this seems to be a direct result of the exponential match damage\health scaling implemented with champion levels (I.e. now that ai enemies get champ levels, their damage and health scales exponetially. But players will only have a few champs, so their strength scales linearly). This goes back to the 3* boost nerf and ultimately to the scaling changes needed to balance 5*s. Can you comment on the long term plans regarding both issues? There are a few other long-standing problems in the game (iso, 4* transition speed, etc), but scaling is among the most vexing for players.

Stax the Foyer

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

Thanks Anthony,

I know that fixing this is more important than followup questions, but if you can give us some additional clarification on a few of these points at some point in the future, it'd be appreciated. I think that sometimes the language and terminology that we use is different from the language that you use internally.

When you say that you were not able to have them scale below their minimal level, do you mean that they're still unable to do so, or that this is something that is now possible?

When you talk about the "new levels system," what does that mean, and how does that effect the Gauntlet design? From the player perspective, PvE opponents have always been able to scale up well past their maximum level (395 Juggs, for example).

I know that these questions sound trivial, but making sure that players and developers know what the other is talking about will help us get the most out of the developer comments when they happen, and allow us to give you more clear and actionable feedback. If we understand the limitations that you're facing in event design, we can make suggestions that might be easier to implement.

Hyposphere6234

The scaling is just ridiculous, I don't mind a challenge. I expect a challenge, especially later on in events. My roster contains three 5*'s at level 255, three championed 3*s with the rest around level 140, a handful of 4*s with several covers and plenty of 4*s with between one and three covers. Yet in the 'easiest' of the three gauntlet events I was facing enemies of level 216 by node eleven.

Let's get to gauntlet number two, with pretty much most of the boosted characters being 4* and 5* characters I have only one or two covers for. I'm left with a selection of five boosted 3*s with only one championed. So far I've reached node twenty-three after waiting for the small handful of boosted characters that can actually make an impact to heal. I've not even attempted this node and I'm not even going to try.

Gamora: Level 282
Ragnarok: Level 282
The Hulk: Level 282

To face this, I have three 5*s with one or two covers at level 255. My top three boosted characters after that is Daredevil at 246, Loki at 233 and 2* Daken at 218.

Let's compare this to two people in my alliance who had to stop at node thirteen in the first gauntlet event. They're both facing enemies of 190+ despite transitioning from 2* to 3*. They have a few 4*s in the roster and a 5* cover each, a few of their 3*s have max covers but are far from being levelled up fully and are missing a lot of covers for the rest.

I appreciate that some of the 4*s are boosted, but the single covers I have for Drax, Winter Soldier, 4* Venom and the two I have for 4* Cyclops and 4* Spiderman really aren't doing much for me.

So here's some suggestions, firstly keep the focus on boosted characters with primarily 3* characters with a few 2*s and a small amount of older 4* characters. Don't immediately make a brand new 4* character event a requirement straight after it's over. How useful do you think a 4* or 5* character is going to be with only several hundred people receiving only one or two covers for them? I appreciate that the Drax event was a few weeks ago, but the one cover I got from it isn't exactly going to help me right now.

Secondly, I'm in full agreement that the ISO rewards need to change. Especially now that 4* and 5* are becoming more prevalent.

I've reached one thousand points in an event.
Here's a hundred!

I've reached one hundred thousand!
Here's two hundred and fifty!

Now I've hit three hundred thousand!
Another two hundred and fifty!
Surely you mean two thousand five hundred?
Nope

What happens if I get 450,000?
We'll give you five hundred ISO in return!

And over one million?
Here's a thousand!

TL:DR ISO rewards need updating & if you're going to offer out free 4*s in your daily rewards then don't punish people for owning them by making things harder in general in pretty much every way.

Edit: I got an update today, things are still unbalanced and unplayable.

Leadggb

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

Thank you for the response.

Can you acknowledge the concerns from this thread about a fundamental issue with this game: As your roster gets better, everything scales up, but the rewards remain the same. In fact, you get put into a harder bracket, so you actually get worse rewards for upgrading your roster.

Is it intentional that you get punished for progressing your roster? If not, what are you doing to improve on this aspect of the game?

Pylgrim

*sigh* yet another overzealous thread-merge that blended constructive discussion on the matters of scaling in general and how to overhaul them in the future, with complaints on the specific scaling in the current gauntlet.

People wonder why there's so much negativity in general discussion and one of the reasons is that positive threads are almost unfailingly either rocketed off to faraway, barren subforums or merged with negative threads.

Demiurge_Anthony

Stax the Foyer wrote:

When you say that you were not able to have them scale below their minimal level, do you mean that they're still unable to do so, or that this is something that is now possible?

Characters are now able to scale below their minimum level (this can been seen in DDQ). "Weird" things happened when you did this before. Ultimately, this feature was added to give the mission designers greater flexibility in the opponents you are facing.

Stax the Foyer wrote:

When you talk about the "new levels system," what does that mean, and how does that effect the Gauntlet design? From the player perspective, PvE opponents have always been able to scale up well past their maximum level (395 Juggs, for example).

Part of the Champion feature was that characters can scale past a "ceiling" that was in the game (that was the 395 part that you are referring to). When that "ceiling" was removed, the characters ended up scaling way too high in this Gauntlet run.

Vhailorx wrote:

Thanks for the update. I am sure you guys were busy with the civil war rollout, but I think it would have been a good idea to announce this change in advance.

Secondly, this seems to be a direct result of the exponential match damage\health scaling implemented with champion levels (I.e. now that ai enemies get champ levels, their damage and health scales exponetially. But players will only have a few champs, so their strength scales linearly). This goes back to the 3* boost nerf and ultimately to the scaling changes needed to balance 5*s. Can you comment on the long term plans regarding both issues? There are a few other long-standing problems in the game (iso, 4* transition speed, etc), but scaling is among the most vexing for players.

That's my bad. My boss (Demiurge_Bagman) told me to inform you guys about the change to the 5-Stars being available in the Gauntlet and I dropped the ball on it. Civil War's been crazy =p

As for the long-term scaling question: I don't have a good response for you at this moment. I can tell you that we are paying a lot of attention to mission difficulty, player success rate and how long people are playing events. I'll have more to talk on this when we get ready for the 4th run of the new mission difficulty system.

Stax the Foyer

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Stax the Foyer wrote:

When you say that you were not able to have them scale below their minimal level, do you mean that they're still unable to do so, or that this is something that is now possible?

Characters are now able to scale below their minimum level (this can been seen in DDQ). "Weird" things happened when you did this before. Ultimately, this feature was added to give the mission designers greater flexibility in the opponents you are facing.

Stax the Foyer wrote:

When you talk about the "new levels system," what does that mean, and how does that effect the Gauntlet design? From the player perspective, PvE opponents have always been able to scale up well past their maximum level (395 Juggs, for example).

Part of the Champion feature was that characters can scale past a "ceiling" that was in the game (that was the 395 part that you are referring to). When that "ceiling" was removed, the characters ended up scaling way too high in this Gauntlet run.

Thanks! I hadn't made the connection between the low level DDQ enemies and this one, but that makes sense. Enemy variety is a good thing, so I'm glad you've got this tool available to you.

Also good to know about the (former) ceiling. Given my strong roster, this is of particular interest to me. As has been pointed out in other threads, the rapid scaling at high levels means that even small adjustments at high levels can have a huge influence on difficulty, especially when the enemies scale beyond our roster levels. I'm really looking forward to the additional discussion when the next PvE test comes around.

hodayathink

Stax the Foyer wrote:

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

Thanks Anthony,

I know that fixing this is more important than followup questions, but if you can give us some additional clarification on a few of these points at some point in the future, it'd be appreciated. I think that sometimes the language and terminology that we use is different from the language that you use internally.

When you say that you were not able to have them scale below their minimal level, do you mean that they're still unable to do so, or that this is something that is now possible?

When you talk about the "new levels system," what does that mean, and how does that effect the Gauntlet design? From the player perspective, PvE opponents have always been able to scale up well past their maximum level (395 Juggs, for example).

I know that these questions sound trivial, but making sure that players and developers know what the other is talking about will help us get the most out of the developer comments when they happen, and allow us to give you more clear and actionable feedback. If we understand the limitations that you're facing in event design, we can make suggestions that might be easier to implement.

They can scale 5* enemies below 255, seeing as they just did it in the Civil War event (both starting the boss battles at 100, and some of the feeder nodes had 5* characters even lower than that).

Edit: And one of the things I'm hoping this means is that they can introduce a new story event that actually incorporates Norman Osborne as Green Goblin, as that was the thing I was most disappointed about when they made him a 5* (the fact that they had created a new villain, but they wouldn't be able to use him in story events).

zulux21

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

Thank you for the responses. it's great to see communication going on.

Vhailorx

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Thanks for the update. I am sure you guys were busy with the civil war rollout, but I think it would have been a good idea to announce this change in advance.

Secondly, this seems to be a direct result of the exponential match damage\health scaling implemented with champion levels (I.e. now that ai enemies get champ levels, their damage and health scales exponetially. But players will only have a few champs, so their strength scales linearly). This goes back to the 3* boost nerf and ultimately to the scaling changes needed to balance 5*s. Can you comment on the long term plans regarding both issues? There are a few other long-standing problems in the game (iso, 4* transition speed, etc), but scaling is among the most vexing for players.

That's my bad. My boss (Demiurge_Bagman) told me to inform you guys about the change to the 5-Stars being available in the Gauntlet and I dropped the ball on it. Civil War's been crazy =p

As for the long-term scaling question: I don't have a good response for you at this moment. I can tell you that we are paying a lot of attention to mission difficulty, player success rate and how long people are playing events. I'll have more to talk on this when we get ready for the 4th run of the new mission difficulty system.

Thanks very much for the feedback Anthony. I would like to think we players are mature enough to appreciate hearing anything at all directly from the dev team, even bad news. Mistakes happen and it would be stupid of us to expect perfection. I look forward to hearing more about the longer term roadmap for the game in terms of iso, transition speed, 4* availability, and scaling/pve scoring. Thanks as well for giving us a warning about the next PVE test.

Zifna

I'm fine with it if literally every map is freakishly difficult... just get rid of health packs.

Seriously, health packs are toxic to fun. They make it so you don't want to take on what would otherwise be fun challenges - all you want to do is fight one-sided unfun curbstomp battles.

Just a thooooought...

Pylgrim

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Thanks for the update. I am sure you guys were busy with the civil war rollout, but I think it would have been a good idea to announce this change in advance.

Secondly, this seems to be a direct result of the exponential match damage\health scaling implemented with champion levels (I.e. now that ai enemies get champ levels, their damage and health scales exponetially. But players will only have a few champs, so their strength scales linearly). This goes back to the 3* boost nerf and ultimately to the scaling changes needed to balance 5*s. Can you comment on the long term plans regarding both issues? There are a few other long-standing problems in the game (iso, 4* transition speed, etc), but scaling is among the most vexing for players.

That's my bad. My boss (Demiurge_Bagman) told me to inform you guys about the change to the 5-Stars being available in the Gauntlet and I dropped the ball on it. Civil War's been crazy =p

As for the long-term scaling question: I don't have a good response for you at this moment. I can tell you that we are paying a lot of attention to mission difficulty, player success rate and how long people are playing events. I'll have more to talk on this when we get ready for the 4th run of the new mission difficulty system.

Since Vhailorx touched on the topic of the nerf to powered up 3*s following championing and we have the rare chance of having a developer talking to us, can we please get an official pronouncement on this matter? We asked for months until we literally got tired of doing it. The nerf was heavy-handed and unnecessary given that 4*s got boosted and greatly affected the competitiveness of 3* players aiming to get the roster-progressing rewards in PVP. Even today, its effects are felt in PVE as opponents scale their levels to consider championed characters but boosted 3*s under level 200 or so are actually weaker than they used to be. When those opponents are 4* or 5*, the difference in power is overwhelming. Any word of God on this?

Merrick

"The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult."

I find this really hard to believe since the gauntlet was run earlier this year (ended Feb 2), well after championing had been introduced, and yet there were no similar issues.

John Wayne74

Pylgrim wrote:

Since Vhailorx touched on the topic of the nerf to powered up 3*s following championing and we have the rare chance of having a developer talking to us, can we please get an official pronouncement on this matter?

If the new system is anything related to the previous tests, then our 3* rosters will still be irrelevant. I liked the post about deleting scaling all together and making it into three tier levels chosen by the player. I want to use my entire roster once more please. I already tire of oml all the time. Heroic, the worst event imaginable, at least gives a break from the constant lock to the 5*'s. Why do we need scaling at all, has still yet to be answered???

Vhailorx

Civil war was a great example of how to do pve without the need for scaling. Everyone plays the same event. But the difficult ratchets up with each round, gradually shrinking the pool of players able to get the top rewards. And because there were two events no one was ever unable to play anything. Weaker teams that cpuodbhabdle rounds 6-8 could just switch to the other side and keep playing.

The gauntlet theoretically offers the same experience (but not when nodes hit 300+ before the end of the first sub!)
(note, this only refers to the boss nodes. The sub nodes were scaled, and we're a bit too high, a la the gauntlet.)

madok

I'm curious if we will get an extension on the time for the Gauntlet due to the problems with scaling.

It is great that they are fixing it but now those of us that wanted to stay sane and didn't play, will have a lot less time to burn through the nodes. Plus farm nodes for that precious ISO.

Akari

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

When Civil War first started, before the insane scaling bump, there was a node with a level 100 OML. Your statement is false...

Bryan Lambert

Vhailorx wrote:

You think there is basically no difference between "attempting and failing to implement a positive change" and "incompetence"?

Not the way I meant it, no. Incompetence the noun, as in in this case people were not competent. Not incompetent the adjective, as in "these people are as a general rule incompetent".

If I make a good faith effort to make your car run better and cut your brake lines, my good intentions don't absolve me of my mistake.

In this case, it seems like a good faith effort to improve the player experience by letting us fight five-star characters in the Gauntlet led to a spke in scaling that snuck through all the playtestings. Which is more detail than we often get, which I appreciate, even if it leaves a lot of the "why" and "how" unanswered.

Pylgrim

Akari wrote:

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to explain what happened with the Gauntlet level scaling. There are a couple different things that you will see in this run of the gauntlet that are different from the previous runs of the event. The first is that you will see 5-Star characters. This is new because we were not able to have them scale below their minimum level (which you'd see if you were a new player). The next is that the levels are taking advantage of the new levels system that was introduced with the champion feature. When updating The Gauntlet for these features, the levels for players ended up being too high and thus too difficult.

We apologize for the unintended change to the difficulty to the Gauntlet. It was our intention to have the difficulty similar to previous runs and hope the update tomorrow will alleviate that frustration for a lot of players.

When Civil War first started, before the insane scaling bump, there was a node with a level 100 OML. Your statement is false...

Read the further clarification. Changes made to the scaling of 5*s in CW were part of the problem with the gauntlet.