Is it time for daily 4* in DDQ?

245

Comments

  • TxMoose
    TxMoose Posts: 4,319 Chairperson of the Boards
    udonomefoo wrote:
    And yet again I'll point out something very simple: a fully covered 4* leveled to 160 takes little iso and can still be useful, especially when boosted and in their ddq. A 1/1/1 4* leveled to 350 (if that was possible) would still be completely useless.

    The iso shortage is real, but don't belittle the struggle to gain 4* covers for those who are not placing 1-2 in every pvp AND pve event AND being in an alliance that spends a lot of money. 23+ covers in 11 days? Yeah, that's a totally reasonable rate that everyone is seeing and not just the experience of one person out of every 10,000.
    i completely agree that 2+ covers/day is likely 99.9th percentile in the game. but 1 cover a day is not impossible if you're hitting pve progression and 1K. and 1 cover a day is not a bad pace. if not 1 a day, 4-5 a week should be nearly automatic for those hitting 1K. for the iso it takes for them, that's not a bad pace, even at 4-5 covers/week.

    lets look at it this way. its 368K to max out a 4. 13 covers to get there. that means for every cover you need approximately 28K iso. how many real transitioners are making more than 28K iso for every cover they earn? covers come faster than iso and increasing covers only makes it worse.

    i agree with your level 160 analogy but championing kind of squashed soft capping. i was going to leave my 4s at 250 until they rolled out championing. now its basically 270 or bust.
  • udonomefoo
    udonomefoo Posts: 1,630 Chairperson of the Boards
    TxMoose wrote:
    lets look at it this way. its 368K to max out a 4. 13 covers to get there. that means for every cover you need approximately 28K iso. how many real transitioners are making more than 28K iso for every cover they earn? covers come faster than iso and increasing covers only makes it worse.

    i agree with your level 160 analogy but championing kind of squashed soft capping. i was going to leave my 4s at 250 until they rolled out championing. now its basically 270 or bust.

    That's reasonable. FWIW, I don't like any of the options in this poll and did not vote. I think one 4* per day from ddq is too much, too easy. I'd love it, but it's not realistic. What I'd like to see is to have the 4* ddq run every day, but still only give out the cover on the last day. The other 4 days would give 3k iso per day as a prize.
  • cardoor
    cardoor Posts: 185 Tile Toppler
    udonomefoo wrote:
    TxMoose wrote:
    lets look at it this way. its 368K to max out a 4. 13 covers to get there. that means for every cover you need approximately 28K iso. how many real transitioners are making more than 28K iso for every cover they earn? covers come faster than iso and increasing covers only makes it worse.

    i agree with your level 160 analogy but championing kind of squashed soft capping. i was going to leave my 4s at 250 until they rolled out championing. now its basically 270 or bust.

    That's reasonable. FWIW, I don't like any of the options in this poll and did not vote. I think one 4* per day from ddq is too much, too easy. I'd love it, but it's not realistic. What I'd like to see is to have the 4* ddq run every day, but still only give out the cover on the last day. The other 4 days would give 3k iso per day as a prize.


    I really enjoy the 1v1 matches so just from the perspective of having fun, I would like to see something like this implemented (and would like the ISO too).
  • Orion
    Orion Posts: 1,295 Chairperson of the Boards
    I was thinking about just how many 4* covers you can earn in a 2 week period and I broke it down this way:

    PvP - There are 6 PvPs in a 2 week period. If you reach 1300 in every one, that's 150 CP, plus 6 covers as 1k prizes. Throw in some CP for finishing top 25, then that's about 14 4* covers just from PvP (unless you buy the 25 CP token for some reason or pull some 5*s. More realistically, the 3*/4* transitioner will not reach 1300 and will only reach 1000 maybe half the time. So there's a range of 3-14 4* covers from PvP.

    PvE - The are usually 3 PvEs in a 2 week period. The crazy grinder will make 75 CP from progression awards, 28 CP from the 2 nodes each day, and a couple of CP for Top 10's both in each sub or for the whole event. So let's say 120 CP total, plus let's give him a 4* cover for a top 10 finish in each event. So that's 9 total 4* covers. Realistically, let's say you fail to make progression in 1 event and only get half of the CP from the nodes. So that's 60 or so total CP and that equals 3 4* covers.

    So my rough estimate is that there's 6-23 covers available from PvP and PvE in a 2 week period. Throw in a potential 3 more from DDQ Clash prizes. That doesn't include 4* release PvEs where a top 10 will get you 4 covers instead of 1 (with the alliance prize) or winning a 4* from an event token or vault.

    So at the low end you're getting a 4* cover every other day and the high end you're getting 2 covers a day. If you're getting less that the low end, then you need to continue working on your 3* transition. The 4*s will come in time.
  • patrice789
    patrice789 Posts: 36 Just Dropped In
    If not this, wouldn't mind 1 CP a day for completely DDQ.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    Obviously something needs to be done since the numbers of 4 stars is so great now. They're just not special anymore and getting one only to have remain at 1-3 for months on end. I've had professor x since late last year, and have no got another cover for since.

    And even if you don't need the covers you can always sell them for iso which I'm sure the majority do when they win the 3 str character of the day.
  • stowaway
    stowaway Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
    Orion wrote:
    I was thinking about just how many 4* covers you can earn in a 2 week period and I broke it down this way:

    PvP - There are 6 PvPs in a 2 week period. If you reach 1300 in every one, that's 150 CP, plus 6 covers as 1k prizes. Throw in some CP for finishing top 25, then that's about 14 4* covers just from PvP (unless you buy the 25 CP token for some reason or pull some 5*s. More realistically, the 3*/4* transitioner will not reach 1300 and will only reach 1000 maybe half the time. So there's a range of 3-14 4* covers from PvP.

    PvE - The are usually 3 PvEs in a 2 week period. The crazy grinder will make 75 CP from progression awards, 28 CP from the 2 nodes each day, and a couple of CP for Top 10's both in each sub or for the whole event. So let's say 120 CP total, plus let's give him a 4* cover for a top 10 finish in each event. So that's 9 total 4* covers. Realistically, let's say you fail to make progression in 1 event and only get half of the CP from the nodes. So that's 60 or so total CP and that equals 3 4* covers.

    So my rough estimate is that there's 6-23 covers available from PvP and PvE in a 2 week period. Throw in a potential 3 more from DDQ Clash prizes. That doesn't include 4* release PvEs where a top 10 will get you 4 covers instead of 1 (with the alliance prize) or winning a 4* from an event token or vault.

    So at the low end you're getting a 4* cover every other day and the high end you're getting 2 covers a day. If you're getting less that the low end, then you need to continue working on your 3* transition. The 4*s will come in time.

    I think this is a good write up, both in terms of what's possible and what's realistic for most players. I'd just add that 3* championing is also a legitimate path to 4* covers for transitioning players. I've had 7 pop their level 183 reward so far, and 10 more are within 3 covers of it. It took a while to get here, but I expect an average of 1-2 covers a week from that source as well.
  • wirius
    wirius Posts: 667
    stowaway wrote:
    Orion wrote:
    I was thinking about just how many 4* covers you can earn in a 2 week period and I broke it down this way:

    PvP - There are 6 PvPs in a 2 week period. If you reach 1300 in every one, that's 150 CP, plus 6 covers as 1k prizes. Throw in some CP for finishing top 25, then that's about 14 4* covers just from PvP (unless you buy the 25 CP token for some reason or pull some 5*s. More realistically, the 3*/4* transitioner will not reach 1300 and will only reach 1000 maybe half the time. So there's a range of 3-14 4* covers from PvP.

    PvE - The are usually 3 PvEs in a 2 week period. The crazy grinder will make 75 CP from progression awards, 28 CP from the 2 nodes each day, and a couple of CP for Top 10's both in each sub or for the whole event. So let's say 120 CP total, plus let's give him a 4* cover for a top 10 finish in each event. So that's 9 total 4* covers. Realistically, let's say you fail to make progression in 1 event and only get half of the CP from the nodes. So that's 60 or so total CP and that equals 3 4* covers.

    So my rough estimate is that there's 6-23 covers available from PvP and PvE in a 2 week period. Throw in a potential 3 more from DDQ Clash prizes. That doesn't include 4* release PvEs where a top 10 will get you 4 covers instead of 1 (with the alliance prize) or winning a 4* from an event token or vault.

    So at the low end you're getting a 4* cover every other day and the high end you're getting 2 covers a day. If you're getting less that the low end, then you need to continue working on your 3* transition. The 4*s will come in time.

    I think this is a good write up, both in terms of what's possible and what's realistic for most players. I'd just add that 3* championing is also a legitimate path to 4* covers for transitioning players. I've had 7 pop their level 183 reward so far, and 10 more are within 3 covers of it. It took a while to get here, but I expect an average of 1-2 covers a week from that source as well.

    I think the point is being COMPLETELY missed. You could get even more 3* covers when they were second tier last year, and DDQ was implemented. No, bringing in, "Just make 1300" is NOT a valid argument. DDQ was for those who couldn't quite make the top 100 to get 3* covers. A DDQ 4* would be for those who couldn't quite make 1k.
  • stowaway
    stowaway Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
    wirius wrote:
    No, bringing in, "Just make 1300" is NOT a valid argument.

    I've never scored higher than 1050 in PvP, only sore as high as 1K if I really want the cover, I've spent less than $2 a month on the game, and I have 6 championed 4* so far, with a 7th hanging out in my queue until I get enough iso. . . because iso is a far bigger problem than covers are.
  • wirius
    wirius Posts: 667
    stowaway wrote:
    wirius wrote:
    No, bringing in, "Just make 1300" is NOT a valid argument.

    I've never scored higher than 1050 in PvP, only sore as high as 1K if I really want the cover, I've spent less than $2 a month on the game, and I have 6 championed 4* so far, with a 7th hanging out in my queue until I get enough iso. . . because iso is a far bigger problem than covers are.

    This is not a post about lack of iso. This is an OP about 4* covers. You're bringing up barn issues when we're building a skyscraper.

    Also, a person who only looks at themselves, then says, "Well I have this, its fine." is not a person focussed on the game as a whole. This is not about the people who already have great rosters, or have played for years, or the top 10% of people in the game. Its about bringing the 4* covers to a more casual level, perhaps expanding the cover base to the top 30% of the player base.

    Why would that be bad? Why would that be good? Its not about you. Its about other players who aren't you.
  • stowaway
    stowaway Posts: 501 Critical Contributor
    The top 30% get 4* covers? What you're asking for is a different game. Right now only the top 20% get 3* covers. If you're not playing the game competitively, there's no reason to get high end rewards. . . because you don't need them. Because your'e not playing the game competitively.

    The OP is about making DDQ reflect the current realities of the game, and right now the reality of the game in its current state is that there's not enough iso.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,332 Chairperson of the Boards
    Can we please not get divided between Iso and covers camps? They are not mutually exclusive and none is objectively more important. Of course 4* players need Iso more and 4* transitioners need covers more (what's the point of a windfall of Iso if you cannot level up your 5-cover Hulkbuster beyond 100 to face the already maxed Hulkbusters that make really difficult for you to get 1k or more in PVP?) Both needs are real and both should be addressed preferably not to the exclusion of the other.

    There are already tons of threads addressing the Iso shortage so maybe we can let this one to discuss about covers? I agree that we're coming close to the point where the measure proposed by the OP is just and necessary. Similarly, we need 4* PVPs. Game has long ago moved into 4* territory and it doesn't reflect it at all.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    We would get more iso either way, so I don't see what the fuss is about. Oh, you get a cover to a 4 star you already, well you get the same thing with the 3 star node anyways, only that matters is whether or not you've got them championed.

    You don't people with fully cover but not championed 3 stars complaining about getting those extra covers. I just sold off 4 3 stars because they're in the 120s and there is no way I can champion each of them in time. But I got iso towards the current character I am trying to champion.

    Why people see more covers as bad thing is beyond me.
  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,580 Chairperson of the Boards
    I already made a suggestion that would address the cover vs iso issue, the iso value of 4* covers should be significantly increased to say 5k and then a ddq that awarded a 4* cover would suit people whether they were iso or cover-starved, this would even make the likes of Chulk, IW, Mr F etc covers marginally less unwelcome too.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    Then they'd have to increase 5 stars to 10 for all the people like me that sell them whenever drawn.
  • grunzadin
    grunzadin Posts: 52 Match Maker
    If I was pulling 4*s any faster, I'd have them all covered within a month.

    4 months ago, I had a single cover maxed 4* (XFW, mostly due to him being around forever). I now have 14 cover maxed 4*s and probably another half dozen that are 1-2 covers away.

    If you invest the time, the 4* transition is accessible to anyone. Admittedly, it requires a lot of time and/or money, and I selfishly want it to stay that way. I want my 4*s to set me apart from the average MPQ player. That's half the fun of the game for me.

    I can understand why casual players feel the 4*s are unfairly gated. But I don't think the casual players fully appreciate that the haves/have-nots status quo is desirable to a portion of the player base. Some players enjoy that scarcity and would stop playing if it disappeared.
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    Orion wrote:
    I was thinking about just how many 4* covers you can earn in a 2 week period and I broke it down this way:

    PvP - There are 6 PvPs in a 2 week period. If you reach 1300 in every one, that's 150 CP, plus 6 covers as 1k prizes. Throw in some CP for finishing top 25, then that's about 14 4* covers just from PvP (unless you buy the 25 CP token for some reason or pull some 5*s. More realistically, the 3*/4* transitioner will not reach 1300 and will only reach 1000 maybe half the time. So there's a range of 3-14 4* covers from PvP.

    PvE - The are usually 3 PvEs in a 2 week period. The crazy grinder will make 75 CP from progression awards, 28 CP from the 2 nodes each day, and a couple of CP for Top 10's both in each sub or for the whole event. So let's say 120 CP total, plus let's give him a 4* cover for a top 10 finish in each event. So that's 9 total 4* covers. Realistically, let's say you fail to make progression in 1 event and only get half of the CP from the nodes. So that's 60 or so total CP and that equals 3 4* covers.

    So my rough estimate is that there's 6-23 covers available from PvP and PvE in a 2 week period. Throw in a potential 3 more from DDQ Clash prizes. That doesn't include 4* release PvEs where a top 10 will get you 4 covers instead of 1 (with the alliance prize) or winning a 4* from an event token or vault.

    So at the low end you're getting a 4* cover every other day and the high end you're getting 2 covers a day. If you're getting less that the low end, then you need to continue working on your 3* transition. The 4*s will come in time.

    One thing that DDQ daily would fix is the RNG nature of the thing. I can't pull an Ice-Man cover to save my life, but I'm tossing much newer 4*'s that I have 13 covers of left and right.

    Another issue now is the champing - with 31 characters (+2 each month apparently) each needing 113 covers, even a 4* cover every day isn't getting you anywhere.
  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    grunzadin wrote:
    If I was pulling 4*s any faster, I'd have them all covered within a month.

    4 months ago, I had a single cover maxed 4* (XFW, mostly due to him being around forever). I now have 14 cover maxed 4*s and probably another half dozen that are 1-2 covers away.

    If you invest the time, the 4* transition is accessible to anyone. Admittedly, it requires a lot of time and/or money, and I selfishly want it to stay that way. I want my 4*s to set me apart from the average MPQ player. That's half the fun of the game for me.

    I can understand why casual players feel the 4*s are unfairly gated. But I don't think the casual players fully appreciate that the haves/have-nots status quo is desirable to a portion of the player base. Some players enjoy that scarcity and would stop playing if it disappeared.

    I am not a casual player, and have sunk my fair share of money into this game, and yes, I feel hosed by my ability to progress with 4 star characters. It's a crawl and with increasing amounts of 4 stars being added makes it daunting that I can't dependent count on any four star to focus on. Added to the fact that I'm forced to sell 5 stars because using cp/LTs is th only way for me to get covers just adds to the distress.

    Really, even if we didn't get a 4 star big enchilada, the least the devs could do is increase the number of 4 stars in vaults including ddq vault. It's ridiculous that vaults only offer three 4 stars and a LT when there are so many of characters around now.
  • grunzadin
    grunzadin Posts: 52 Match Maker
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    Another issue now is the champing - with 31 characters (+2 each month apparently) each needing 113 covers, even a 4* cover every day isn't getting you anywhere.

    I'm not sure the devs intend for people to max champ their 4*s and 5*s. There's a cap, so naturally people will aim for that cap, but I suspect championing is intended to basically be a lifetime journey that few people ever complete. After all, the fun of championing disappears once you hit the cap.

    I think caps only exist to corral the mega whales, not to be a reasonable goal for the general population. Could be wrong, though.
  • Blahahah
    Blahahah Posts: 738 Critical Contributor
    Hey there. Part time whale and local Blahahah speaking.

    Two things...
    One: getting more covers doesn't solve the issue that there's not enough iso to level them.
    Two: getting more iso doesn't solve the problem that there aren't enough covers to make it worth it.

    There are valid arguments from each camp. The ones without covers aren't affected by the iso shortage, the ones with covers are starved for iso.
    So the answer should be simple:

    Each DDQ is a 5-day week. So...

    Day 1: Cover
    Day 2: 7500 iso
    Day 3: Cover
    Day 4: 7500 iso
    Day 5: Cover

    Gives you 1/1/1 of a different 4* each week and injects an extra 15000 iso into the bank. While it doesn't completely solve either problem, it takes a decent step towards both.
    15000 iso isn't going to solve all of your problems overnight, but an extra 15000 a week on top of the rest of the bonuses? Might be worth it.
    1/1/1 isn't going to make your 4* viable, but it'll probably do at least something for you. Those with champions can reap extra levels, those without can move closer.

    Opinions?

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