Missing the new system already on pve

NewMcG

Slarow wrote:

I updated your post, since it only applies to the top fraction of the players. Your statement is not valid for the rest of the community, which is exactly what is being stated in this thread.

Being forced into an 8 hour play cycle has an affect on placement, even for us "peasants" who only shoot for T100/T50.

Except for where I pointed out that the amount of effort/clears required in the old system (for both progression, and by extent, placement even beyond the top 20), is going to be less, even when "playing when you feel like it", once you factor in things like 3 actual "easy" nodes every clear, lower progression requirements, etc. But hey, let's not let little things like "math" get in the way.

Vhailorx

Pollozz wrote:

Don't like going back on schedule again. Was fun to play anytime without loss points!!. I bet I will get a lot of aggression from the usual T50 placement people but the remaining 950 are actually really happy if this new system is implemented anytime soon.

Polares is right Tc. The old system allowed you to play exactly the same way and get the same rewards. Sure. You theoretically left points on the table because of the timer. But if you didn't care about high placement, that didn't matter at all.

cardoor

Polares wrote:

cardoor wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Pollozz wrote:

Don't like going back on schedule again. Was fun to play anytime without loss points!!. I bet I will get a lot of aggression from the usual T50 placement people but the remaining 950 are actually really happy if this new system is implemented anytime soon.

If you're not T50, you have no reason to give a tinykitty. It's the same game for you regardless. And no, this isn't aggression because you like the new system. It's aggression because you can't even understand there's no reason for you to like it.

Here is an example of why I disagree. Player X can get top 50 (or 100 or 200 or whatever) when he puts in the effort. He enters an event thinking he will not have much time to play and so he expects to play casually. The first sub is halfway over and he suddenly finds he has more time than he realized. Player X can now compete evenly if he chooses to (in the new system). Instead of being behind because of points allotted on a strict schedule (in the old system).

So player X did a clear when the first sub started, he lost one clear and then played at the end of the sub until all nodes got to 1. Then he played normally all the other subs. This would give him without a doubt a top50 position, he just lost 1 clear for the whole event! So, what are you talking about ?!?!?! If he did all the other subs perfectly he would probably be even in top20 without problems.

...

You obviously missed the words "play casually" and that the "sub is halfway over" before player X starts to compete. It is so easy to understand that once 12 hours have passed in a sub that someone who "played casually" would be very far behind in points to someone who played optimally, that I am at a loss on how to explain it to you more simply. Is that really that hard to understand?

How about this? The casual player played 3 trivial matches and the 4* essential twice for a total of 5 matches by the time 12 hours had passed in a 24hour sub. Would he or would he not be far behind at that point in the old system (but not in the new system)?

Very easy question.

cardoor

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

That was true for the top 13 people in my slice. I came in 14th and what you are saying never affected my placement (I never did 8 clears).

Edit: it did affect my 7th clear points, but I came in 14th anyway.

Unknown

Agreed. The new system is bad.

Also, what is with the current event? Out of my 70+ characters, the 9 I get to use are ones I NEVER use because they royally suck to play.

revskip

tanis3303 wrote:

Slarow wrote:

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding. He specifically said "only if you play a node more than 7 times". Why, then, would you respond with "you are losing points on the final grind", as there is no "final grind" when you only play the node 7 times.

The new method allows people who play up to 7 times per node the ability to do it at ANY time during the 24 hour period, and get the same points regardless of when they do it. There is no "optimal playtime schedule" that you get penalized for not following.

The old method requires that you schedule exactly when you play, or you end up with less points than if you had done it optimally.

You're not wrong. But neither is Simon. Yes, the initial 6 clears DO require a less regimented playstyle, no one's questioning that. But only for casual play. Guys like Simon (and also myself, hence my need to share my opinion ) play like animals for new characters. Thing is, unless you're successful sniping a bracket at the last second (which is not a guaranteed method of winning said bracket, its really a crapshoot) you have to play PERFECTLY in order to take top spot in that bracket. And you can guaran-darn-tee that there are going to be at least 9 other people in said bracket that will be playing perfectly, so you better not screw up or else you just lost. In this new system, every second those nodes spend at full points before you see the timer pop up means more points are available for anyone that clears them faster than you do. So as far as competitive play goes, it is not a more flexible system. If you want to win the bracket, you HAVE to play each node to the timer upon subs opening, then grind them down at the end. You have to, or the other 9 guys will. I'm not saying its healthy ...but that's how it works in the t10 of PvE.

I completely understand that. And even empathize with players who are making that type of commitment, I've tried a few times to hit top 10 and have already figured out that I most likely will never hit that mark because of the time sink involved.

What is kind of galling though is the tone that simonsez has in these posts as if somehow the top 10 players are the only ones whose opinions matter and the other 990 people be damned. I get it, he's invested a ton of time and/or money into the game and believes that his opinion should carry some weight but so should the opinion of anyone who is investing time and money into the game regardless of their willingness to grind.

I know that others in my alliance do not like the new system for precisely the same reasons as simonsez. I personally do like it with the caveat that I know that there will come a time where it will no longer benefit me as a 2*-3* player and that my confirmation bias may well change when that happens. I've played on a friend's account with a 4* roster and know what to expect when I get there (although the meta will most likely be 6*s by then). I understand that the most competitive players are grinding nodes way past 7 times to max their score.

I also know that those players make up a tiny fraction of the player base and catering only to their whims is as silly as only catering to the 1% of players who are at the most casual end of the spectrum. If more casual users who spend money prefer this system (which I posit is nearly impossible to tell since they probably aren't hitting this forum in the first place) and only the top 20% or so of players who spend money prefer the old system the developers would be crazy to cater to the minority. Ultimately they should do whatever will make them the best return, they might lose some of the vets but as long as they retain enough paying users they will be better off in the long run.

Merrick

If they leave rubberbanding on, I would be happy with the new system.

I only played each sub during the last 3 hours. (Including the 48 hour sub).

I know that this event was not typical, but rubberbanding brought me to a 2nd place finish for the initial sub and a top 10 finish for the others. Never hitting anything more than 7 times.

If they will leave rubberbanding on, the entire fight would change, from who can finish 6 fights on each node the fastest plus spend time grinding, to who can start last and finish.

ZootSax

cardoor wrote:

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

That was true for the top 13 people in my slice. I came in 14th and what you are saying never affected my placement (I never did 8 clears).

Edit: it did affect my 7th clear points, but I came in 14th anyway.

First of all, two quick things:
1) congrats on a Top 15 finish--that's WAY better than I've ever managed
2) I want to throw out here that I think both the old and new PVEs are badly flawed, albeit in different ways, and need to be changed. In short, I don't really have a dog in the fight, so to speak between the current format and the test events.

The main point I have to make is that the people who are most vocally against the new PVE format probably couldn't care less about the specifics of the most recent test. Unstable Iso8 is one of the easiest PVEs and Cho/Colossus is about as lack-luster as rewards come. The worry they have is on new character releases on much harder events (like Heroics or Venom Bomb), where participation is way up, difficulty is way up and more people are going all-in. In such an event, based on past experience, I would not expect to even finish top 300 with the 5 or so clears, at most, i can typically find time to make. I wouldn't expect 7 clears to necessarily be top 100, at least in many (if not most?) vet brackets. The max progression will be raised correspondingly, based on previous trends. This is A LOT more work than in the current format for basically the same reward...especially when the overall higher difficulty is factored in. That's the fear. And it really seems inevitable if the test system becomes permanent in its current form.

There are definitely things to like in the new system, but in my opinion it creates more problems than it solves. Hopefully the next iteration of testing can tone down some of the changes...

cardoor

ZootSax wrote:

cardoor wrote:

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

That was true for the top 13 people in my slice. I came in 14th and what you are saying never affected my placement (I never did 8 clears).

Edit: it did affect my 7th clear points, but I came in 14th anyway.

First of all, two quick things:
1) congrats on a Top 15 finish--that's WAY better than I've ever managed
2) I want to throw out here that I think both the old and new PVEs are badly flawed, albeit in different ways, and need to be changed. In short, I don't really have a dog in the fight, so to speak between the current format and the test events.

The main point I have to make is that the people who are most vocally against the new PVE format probably couldn't care less about the specifics of the most recent test. Unstable Iso8 is one of the easiest PVEs and Cho/Colossus is about as lack-luster as rewards come. The worry they have is on new character releases on much harder events (like Heroics or Venom Bomb), where participation is way up, difficulty is way up and more people are going all-in. In such an event, based on past experience, I would not expect to even finish top 300 with the 5 or so clears, at most, i can typically find time to make. I wouldn't expect 7 clears to necessarily be top 100, at least in many (if not most?) vet brackets. The max progression will be raised correspondingly, based on previous trends. This is A LOT more work than in the current format for basically the same reward...especially when the overall higher difficulty is factored in. That's the fear. And it really seems inevitable if the test system becomes permanent in its current form.

There are definitely things to like in the new system, but in my opinion it creates more problems than it solves. Hopefully the next iteration of testing can tone down some of the changes...

The only reason I am listing my rank in the last event is so that people will have a rough rubric to see where 7x clears ended up.

Cho is near Bagman in usefulness, so I totally understand what you are saying. If it had been Ghost Rider, my guess is 7x would make top 50. Jean Grey maybe top 100. Just a guess based on being over double progression in other events.

The new system test did not feel like a lot of work to me honestly and I was just recently burned out, so I must really like playing whenever I feel like it and placing well or something.

TxMoose

Slarow wrote:

1) "Bracket Shopping" is a meta-strategy that shouldn't be the answer to low placement. 2) The current system doesn't allow you to bracket shop, because it forces you to pick a bracket based on the 8 hour cycle and when you will be available to play. Those with the ability to play at any time have a distinct advantage in the old system, in that they can bracket shop. That advantage goes away in the new system.

you don't have to shop - just join 1/2 way through the first sub and you'll avoid all the heavy hitters and be in a much more casual group. doesn't matter if you join at 100 or 800, trust me you'll have an easier time of it. stop joining at the beginning and more casual play will get you much better results.

Unknown

Bryan Lambert wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Yeah, I didn't really mean easier in the sense of less 'work,' but in the flexibility sense. I see higher raw scoring in the new system, but that not leading to higher progression or higher placement than it would otherwise with the same effort and timing.

Let's not forget that ultimately, us arguing with each other over whether less play time is better than more flexibility misses the point that really, we should be arguing with Demiurge that less play time AND more flexibility is what would benefit all players.

I don't think the are going to change this system. The game is a money making scheme. Anything which brings money in helps the company. Anything which takes money away hurts the company. Anything which does neither hurts the company due to losses in ROI and opportunity costs.

This is not a charity--their only concern is profit.

The new system is designed to encourage people to:

1. Grind WAY more thus:
2. Incurring more damage on their teams which encourages:
3. The sale of more health packs to grind as much as is needed and:
4. Results in far more points loss when other people log back in which forces those players to:
5. Start their own progression at step 1, thus assuring the cycle repeats over and over.

Think of it like dog-fighting--if the two dogs don't fight, their owners make no money. If the two dogs tear each other to shreds--but not enough to kill them, the owners bring the dogs out, sew them up and, and the dogs are thrown back into the pit to fight again.

Over and over.

That is what Demiurge has achieved in the new system--and they are the only people on the planet with the ability to sell suture to to owners. This new system is pretty much universally hated by everyone who does not wish to spend a huge amount of cash and time to play. Whales love it because they simply get to keep purchasing the ability to win matches. Demiurge loves it because, well, as I said, they own a monopoly on the sutures for us dogs.

Don't except the system to change back--it won't be. As long as Demiurge generates $1 more in profit per week than under the old system, this new system is here to stay no matter what.

Total Immortal

Ok, who the hell cares if the timers are there or not? I do clears when I feel like it on the old system and if I do 3 or 4, I make t100, sometimes top 50. The top 10 guys will play for hours a day hours either way, a day the 30 mins midday clears are probably easier than the 7 hour system. Let's face it, unless you're going for optimal scoring, it doesn't really matter when you clear.
Furthermore, on the new system, more clears are required to make progression and they also take a hell of a lot longer and require more health packs because the scaling is awful.
Keep the play when you like system, eliminate the timers altogether. Pve doesn't need to be competetive, just put the damn rewards in progression, same with alliance rewards. Keep the old scaling though. Hell, lower it a bit, you'll have a much happier playerbase.