Missing the new system already on pve

MeatLoafX

The test seemed easier for me. Getting a top 50 was never in doubt. Now, I'm getting my team wiped on several nodes and I'm not able to crack top 100. Sure, more people are likely playing - I know I really want the guardians covers - but I can't clear nodes so I can't get points. For my roster level, the test nodes were easier (I know it wasn't for everyone). Sad I can't get the covers I want but more disheartened because the pvp also seems off for me and I can't really do much of anything at the moment...

wymtime

MeatLoafX wrote:

The test seemed easier for me. Getting a top 50 was never in doubt. Now, I'm getting my team wiped on several nodes and I'm not able to crack top 100. Sure, more people are likely playing - I know I really want the guardians covers - but I can't clear nodes so I can't get points. For my roster level, the test nodes were easier (I know it wasn't for everyone). Sad I can't get the covers I want but more disheartened because the pvp also seems off for me and I can't really do much of anything at the moment...

Question for you so you feel you are wiping out on the Heroic PVE because it is a heroic and the limited roster is making you play with teams with poor synergy or do you feel it is the scaling of the Heroic and you would be wiping out regardless of roster restrictions? The reason I ask is there is a difference between a heroic and a normal PVE.

Slarow

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding. He specifically said "only if you play a node more than 7 times". Why, then, would you respond with "you are losing points on the final grind", as there is no "final grind" when you only play the node 7 times.

The new method allows people who play up to 7 times per node the ability to do it at ANY time during the 24 hour period, and get the same points regardless of when they do it. There is no "optimal playtime schedule" that you get penalized for not following.

The old method requires that you schedule exactly when you play, or you end up with less points than if you had done it optimally.

beyonderbub

ZootSax

Slarow wrote:

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding. He specifically said "only if you play a node more than 7 times". Why, then, would you respond with "you are losing points on the final grind", as there is no "final grind" when you only play the node 7 times.

The new method allows people who play up to 7 times per node the ability to do it at ANY time during the 24 hour period, and get the same points regardless of when they do it. There is no "optimal playtime schedule" that you get penalized for not following.

The old method requires that you schedule exactly when you play, or you end up with less points than if you had done it optimally.

I believe simonsez understood jobob's intent, but they were referring to a different point of reference for the term "losing points". jobob was using the term to refer to losing points as a node refreshes, so under that concept in the new test system, you can't "lose points" on a node until after you have cleared it 6 times. simonsez was referring to "losing points" relative to the optimal grind to earn a top 10 for the event--which is to say, anything you do which lowers your score below the theoretical maximum is technically "losing points". In that case, "playing on your own time" directly means losing points, as it's sub-optimal compared to doing 6 clears ASAP once the sub opens and a final grind towards the end, which allows for the maximum point refresh on each node (assuming it's a 24hr sub--the 48 hr is probably slightly different, but I'm not a top player, so I honestly don't know). Neither player is wrong in what they say...it's just that they're not really having the same discussion. At least that's how I interpret their position.

MeatLoafX

wymtime wrote:

MeatLoafX wrote:

The test seemed easier for me. Getting a top 50 was never in doubt. Now, I'm getting my team wiped on several nodes and I'm not able to crack top 100. Sure, more people are likely playing - I know I really want the guardians covers - but I can't clear nodes so I can't get points. For my roster level, the test nodes were easier (I know it wasn't for everyone). Sad I can't get the covers I want but more disheartened because the pvp also seems off for me and I can't really do much of anything at the moment...

Question for you so you feel you are wiping out on the Heroic PVE because it is a heroic and the limited roster is making you play with teams with poor synergy or do you feel it is the scaling of the Heroic and you would be wiping out regardless of roster restrictions? The reason I ask is there is a difference between a heroic and a normal PVE.

Th heroic part is making it harder, but he nodes in the test started at 35-50 for me and topped out in the 80s or 90s it seemed. Here, nodes are well over my level to start (not all of them, but #s 4-7 and the essentials are well over my level). Add that with seeing pvp matches more than double my level at times and I'm not able to do much. The pvp has leveled out a little, but I have to wade through really, really high rosters to find an even match.

simonsez

Slarow wrote:

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding.

You are invited to do likewise. It has been said over and over and over and over and over again, that if you are not playing competitively, grinding and looking to optimize points, just ignore the damn timer. Play when you want, get your prog, and stop pretending the timer is your enemy. You people loving this **** new format and failing to grasp this and/or refusing to accept this is, is like some kind of jedi mind trick. But despite the voice in your head telling you otherwise, it really IS a piece of **** format.

JVReal

simonsez wrote:

Slarow wrote:

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding.

You are invited to do likewise. It has been said over and over and over and over and over again, that if you are not playing competitively, grinding and looking to optimize points, just ignore the damn timer. Play when you want, get your prog, and stop pretending the timer is your enemy. You people loving this tinykitty new format and failing to grasp this and/or refusing to accept this is, is like some kind of jedi mind trick. But despite the voice in your head telling you otherwise, it really IS a piece of tinykitty format.

Everybody stop! Simonsez has spoken. So it shall be written, So it shall be done. Bow to the top 10 grinders.

Slarow

ZootSax wrote:

Slarow wrote:

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding. He specifically said "only if you play a node more than 7 times". Why, then, would you respond with "you are losing points on the final grind", as there is no "final grind" when you only play the node 7 times.

The new method allows people who play up to 7 times per node the ability to do it at ANY time during the 24 hour period, and get the same points regardless of when they do it. There is no "optimal playtime schedule" that you get penalized for not following.

The old method requires that you schedule exactly when you play, or you end up with less points than if you had done it optimally.

I believe simonsez understood jobob's intent, but they were referring to a different point of reference for the term "losing points". jobob was using the term to refer to losing points as a node refreshes, so under that concept in the new test system, you can't "lose points" on a node until after you have cleared it 6 times. simonsez was referring to "losing points" relative to the optimal grind to earn a top 10 for the event--which is to say, anything you do which lowers your score below the theoretical maximum is technically "losing points". In that case, "playing on your own time" directly means losing points, as it's sub-optimal compared to doing 6 clears ASAP once the sub opens and a final grind towards the end, which allows for the maximum point refresh on each node (assuming it's a 24hr sub--the 48 hr is probably slightly different, but I'm not a top player, so I honestly don't know). Neither player is wrong in what they say...it's just that they're not really having the same discussion. At least that's how I interpret their position.

I agree that they are talking about two different points of reference. That is what I was trying to point out. The reason they are talking about two different things, as I stated, is that simonsez did not read what jobob wrote. Jobob specifically said "unless you play a node more than 7 times". simonsez replied to that specifically qualified statement with "thats not true", yet it is true.

Phaserhawk

3 clears per node and a bit of grinding on the high points every 24 hrs got you max progression. If they can keep that except now I don't have to wait 8 hrs I'll be happy. But god damn that difficulty needs to be fixed

tanis3303

Slarow wrote:

simonsez wrote:

jobob wrote:

In the new system, you can only lose points if you play a node more than 7 times, regardless of schedule.

That's not true. The quicker you clear down the timer, the more points will be available at the final grind. So for every minute that goes by with a node that says "full points", yes, you are ultimately losing points.

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding. He specifically said "only if you play a node more than 7 times". Why, then, would you respond with "you are losing points on the final grind", as there is no "final grind" when you only play the node 7 times.

The new method allows people who play up to 7 times per node the ability to do it at ANY time during the 24 hour period, and get the same points regardless of when they do it. There is no "optimal playtime schedule" that you get penalized for not following.

The old method requires that you schedule exactly when you play, or you end up with less points than if you had done it optimally.

You're not wrong. But neither is Simon. Yes, the initial 6 clears DO require a less regimented playstyle, no one's questioning that. But only for casual play. Guys like Simon (and also myself, hence my need to share my opinion ) play like animals for new characters. Thing is, unless you're successful sniping a bracket at the last second (which is not a guaranteed method of winning said bracket, its really a crapshoot) you have to play PERFECTLY in order to take top spot in that bracket. And you can guaran-darn-tee that there are going to be at least 9 other people in said bracket that will be playing perfectly, so you better not screw up or else you just lost. In this new system, every second those nodes spend at full points before you see the timer pop up means more points are available for anyone that clears them faster than you do. So as far as competitive play goes, it is not a more flexible system. If you want to win the bracket, you HAVE to play each node to the timer upon subs opening, then grind them down at the end. You have to, or the other 9 guys will. I'm not saying its healthy ...but that's how it works in the t10 of PvE.

simonsez

JVReal wrote:

Everybody stop! Simonsez has spoken. So it shall be written, So it shall be done. Bow to the top 10 grinders.

Hell, I'm perfectly willing to accept a rational, logical argument as to how this new format benefits ANYONE, but two weeks into this ****, I still haven't seen one. All of this "I can play on my own time" nonsense is complete ****. You can already do that if you're not looking for a high rank. If you ARE looking for a high rank, then you still can't play on your own time. It's not **** rocket science.

udonomefoo

simonsez wrote:

Slarow wrote:

Please read what you are replying to, carefully, before responding.

You are invited to do likewise. It has been said over and over and over and over and over again, that if you are not playing competitively, grinding and looking to optimize points, just ignore the damn timer. Play when you want, get your prog, and stop pretending the timer is your enemy. You people loving this tinykitty new format and failing to grasp this and/or refusing to accept this is, is like some kind of jedi mind trick. But despite the voice in your head telling you otherwise, it really IS a piece of tinykitty format.

If the only goal is the progression, then the timer IS still the enemy. I know you can do math, so I shouldn't have to explain this, but if I triple clear under the old system, I'm losing 20% of max points each clear. So I have to do that many more clears to reach progression right?

The new system is heavily flawed in it's difficulty and rewards, but this one point keeps getting argued about and I don't understand how it's this complicated.

Edit: this argument makes a grand assumption that the progression goal is the same under both systems, which as we have seen is a total crapshoot.

Lee T

I used to play 2 to 3 clears in each round plus an eventual grind whenever I was watching something not requiring my full attention on TV. That brought me to TOP 200 easy, TOP 100 when I did grind a lot. Under the new system I barely make it to the TOP 300 (and I even finished the progression reward in unstable ISO). While playing on my own time is a definite plus, I can't compete anymore for the 3* cover while I already have a full 3* roster. If they keep the last iteration on, I won't have much reason to play, once I championed all my 3*, the next step will be forever unattainable.

JVReal

simonsez wrote:

JVReal wrote:

Everybody stop! Simonsez has spoken. So it shall be written, So it shall be done. Bow to the top 10 grinders.

Hell, I'm perfectly willing to accept a rational, logical argument as to how this new format benefits ANYONE, but two weeks into this tinykitty, I still haven't seen one. All of this "I can play on my own time" nonsense is complete tinykitty. You can already do that if you're not looking for a high rank. If you ARE looking for a high rank, then you still can't play on your own time. It's not tinykitty rocket science.

If you aren't a top 10 placer, then your OPINION means ****... essentially, right?

Because fun requires justification? Requires logic?

Where's the logic in grinding at all for digital products? It's about placement, the feeling of accomplishment, FEELING... NOT REAL. None of it is logical. It's all psychological. There is no logic to making people stop playing every clear for 8 hours.

Why does anyone have to justify their opinions and feelings to you? Who needs your acceptance? Every time someone expresses that they like it, you post your **** jumping down their throats demanding some justification for their feelings.

We get it... you don't like it. Now leave people who do like it alone. They don't need to justify why they do, and you don't have to justify why you don't.

God damn opinion police.

I'm done for the day.

Slarow

simonsez wrote:

if you are not playing competitively, grinding and looking to optimize points, just ignore the damn timer. Play when you want, get your prog, and stop pretending the timer is your enemy.

And what if I want to play competitively, but not "grind each node to 1 point on the exact optimal schedule" competitively? I shoot for top 100, but that requires playing every 8 hours on the old system. It does not on the new system.

DaveR4470

simonsez wrote:

Hell, I'm perfectly willing to accept a rational, logical argument as to how this new format benefits ANYONE, but two weeks into this tinykitty, I still haven't seen one. All of this "I can play on my own time" nonsense is complete tinykitty. You can already do that if you're not looking for a high rank. If you ARE looking for a high rank, then you still can't play on your own time. It's not tinykitty rocket science.

Here's the argument, then: your statement only works if you have ample time to play, and/or some measure of flexibility.

Say it takes me 20 minutes to clear an entire board for a given sub. And say I have an hour, and ONLY an hour, to play.

• Under the new system, I know I will get the point equivalent of 3 optimal clears of the board, because points don't drop until I hit run #7.
• Under the timer system, I would need to do (I think) at least 5 clears of the board to get the point equivalent of 3 optimal clears. But that would take more time than I have, so I can't do it. Under the old system, I earn (guesstimate) no more than about 75% of the points I'd earn under the new system.

And max progression levels -- which, if you are not competing for placement must be, of necessity, ALL you care about -- are based on a multiple of optimal clears for the event (usually at least 3-4 clears per sub).

Not coincidentally, I have a pretty fixed amount of time per day that I can play. I haven't hit a PvE progression in months. I hit the last one easily. Why? Because in my fixed amount of play I could hit that 4x optimal clear point total level by min/maxing the various nodes to get the optimal amount of points for the given time I had to play. That's simply not something I can do under the timer system -- to hit top prog levels, I have to play at least in two of the 8-hour refresh periods to get the top point values in each node. I WOULDN'T have to do that if I had enough time to grind each node down to zero in one sitting.... but I don't.

So the new system is HIGHLY advantageous for me, because it makes the progression rewards more achievable given my fixed amount of playing time.

If I'm in a small minority of people benefitting from this, and a larger swath of people do not, so be it. It is what it is. But you don't seem to be able to see how the new system could be better than the old one. Well, here you go.

Slarow

tanis3303 wrote:

In this new system, every second those nodes spend at full points before you see the timer pop up means more points are available for anyone that clears them faster than you do. So as far as competitive play goes, it is not a more flexible system. If you want to win the bracket, you HAVE to play each node to the timer upon subs opening, then grind them down at the end. You have to, or the other 9 guys will. I'm not saying its healthy ...but that's how it works in the t10 of PvE.

It sounds to me like you are saying that getting first place out of 1000 players is hard. It should be.

It also sounds to me like the new system puts a higher emphasis on clearing nodes fast (actual strategy), as oppose to emphasizing exact optimal time clears (meta-strategy), which allows more opportunity for better players to excel, separating the men from the boys.

Slarow

DaveR4470 wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Hell, I'm perfectly willing to accept a rational, logical argument as to how this new format benefits ANYONE, but two weeks into this tinykitty, I still haven't seen one. All of this "I can play on my own time" nonsense is complete tinykitty. You can already do that if you're not looking for a high rank. If you ARE looking for a high rank, then you still can't play on your own time. It's not tinykitty rocket science.

Here's the argument, then: your statement only works if you have ample time to play, and/or some measure of flexibility.

Say it takes me 20 minutes to clear an entire board for a given sub. And say I have an hour, and ONLY an hour, to play.

• Under the new system, I know I will get the point equivalent of 3 optimal clears of the board, because points don't drop until I hit run #7.
• Under the timer system, I would need to do (I think) at least 5 clears of the board to get the point equivalent of 3 optimal clears. But that would take more time than I have, so I can't do it. Under the old system, I earn (guesstimate) no more than about 75% of the points I'd earn under the new system.

And max progression levels -- which, if you are not competing for placement must be, of necessity, ALL you care about -- are based on a multiple of optimal clears for the event (usually at least 3-4 clears per sub).

Not coincidentally, I have a pretty fixed amount of time per day that I can play. I haven't hit a PvE progression in months. I hit the last one easily. Why? Because in my fixed amount of play I could hit that 4x optimal clear point total level by min/maxing the various nodes to get the optimal amount of points for the given time I had to play. That's simply not something I can do under the timer system -- to hit top prog levels, I have to play at least in two of the 8-hour refresh periods to get the top point values in each node. I WOULDN'T have to do that if I had enough time to grind each node down to zero in one sitting.... but I don't.

So the new system is HIGHLY advantageous for me, because it makes the progression rewards more achievable given my fixed amount of playing time.

If I'm in a small minority of people benefitting from this, and a larger swath of people do not, so be it. It is what it is. But you don't seem to be able to see how the new system could be better than the old one. Well, here you go.

Exactly this. The difference for me is that I have been hitting max prog, but at the expense of family/life/other time. The new format allows me to hit max prog without having the "how long till next clear, and when exactly can I slot it in between all the other things going on" thought every 8 hours.

GrumpySmurf1002

Slarow wrote:

And what if I want to play competitively, but not "grind each node to 1 point on the exact optimal schedule" competitively? I shoot for top 100, but that requires playing every 8 hours on the old system. It does not on the new system.

Playing whenever I feel like, I've finished as high as 8th in the old system, and consistently finish top 50-100. Bracket placement >>>>>> Timer

That's Simon's point. Unless you're playing for top rank, the fact that things are worth max points means very little other than the psychological benefit of seeing 'Full Points".

The effort required in the 2nd test to get to max progression was considerably less than normal, but that was a function of the rubberbanding system that allowed people playing optimally to slingshot others doing the first two clears. As that won't be the norm, the effort in both old system and new system to finish in the 50-100 range should be identical (assuming they figure the stupid scaling out)

With identical effort required for 'casual' play, it stands to reason the most complaints would come from the drastic difference in competitive requirements, and thus from the players most likely to play under those conditions.