PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

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  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Druss wrote:
    There was a thread recently that showed even with 100 extra levels a 3* adds about 400 damage to its abilities now - against Ares/Jugs etc in the Lv 300+ range with 25k+ health this is meaningless - I think now panther (a top tier 3* imo) needs to cast ROTP 4-5 times to kill a 4* or a boosted Lv300 Dark Avenger - that 60 Black AP - He would be dead long since.

    I think you are referring to my post in the other thread. Here you go:
    atomzed wrote:

    Here are the stats for a max champ sentry.

    Before buff:- level 266 sentry super nova does 1926 base dmg plus 321 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 4815 AOE dmg.

    After buff:- level 360 sentry super nova does 3234 based dmg plus 539 dmg per red tile destroyed. That equate to 7985 aoe dmg. (Roughly 1.6x increase in dmg before buff)

    .

    A max champ is not going to help you with those super scaled enemies
  • nwman
    nwman Posts: 331 Mover and Shaker
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    It sounds like it smooths out a few things except it makes the game harder for everybody. Why are the easy nodes becoming hard?


    This sounds like it's going to ruin competitive pve.

    The timer system seems horrible. Way too many replays once the countdown timer is on in addition to th ones before the countdown begins.

    I've spent a lot of money on this game so as a paying player I'm saying very clearly I'm not liking the sound of these changes.

    Please reconsider this system with some of our feedback before putting it live.
  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,579 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2016
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    wymtime wrote:
    This is where I am and here is the issue with this scaling. PVE is now requiring. To use your 4* or buffed 3* on all nodes instead if just the hard missions. What this scaling is potentially doing is it will really hurt transitioning players who want to play PVE and do well. Why do the Dev's feel starting battles at 195 because it is an even playing field. Now a lo more health packs will be used on what was the trivial nodes. A team PVP teams will be required for PVE too since buffed 3* will be at a disadvantage from the start. Why is this thought to be more fun?

    The whole situation with boosted characters is messed up, a boost should be a benefit to the player rather than a negative so only the base levels of the characters should be considered when it comes to scaling and then the boost would a benefit for having the character.

    nwman wrote:
    The timer system seems horrible. Way too many replays once the countdown timer is on in addition to th ones before the countdown begins.

    Do that many people really grind nodes down to one, simply clearing out all 7 prizes during the 24 hours of a sub puts you within range of t10 anyway so less than 1% of the playerbase are going beyond that point anyway let alone grinding right down to one.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
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    One last thing, is scaling going to penalized the way we currently are by counting boosted levels?
  • ClydeFrog76
    ClydeFrog76 Posts: 1,350 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Crowl wrote:
    The whole situation with boosted characters is messed up, a boost should be a benefit to the player rather than a negative so only the base levels of the characters should be considered when it comes to scaling and then the boost would a benefit for having the character.

    I've never quite understood that either. You gain no advantage from a "boost" if the entire difficulty level of the game takes it into account. May as well not even bother with the feature.
  • RoboDuck
    RoboDuck Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
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    Well see how it works out, but with the removal of the easy nodes, about 70% of my roster just became completely useless. Everyone have fun trying to clear every single node with whoever is boosted this week. Make sure to buy some health packs!
  • Tie El Min
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    This change looks interesting, confusing and a little intimidating) . Won't be making any predictions like "it's cool" or "it sucks". I promise to participate and share their opinions. As long As it was beneficial for the whole community.
    Ah, Yes. Special thanks to the developers for this test.
  • nwman
    nwman Posts: 331 Mover and Shaker
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    crowl wrote:
    nwman wrote:
    The timer system seems horrible. Way too many replays once the countdown timer is on in addition to th ones before the countdown begins.

    Do that many people really grind nodes down to one, simply clearing out all 7 prizes during the 24 hours of a sub puts you within range of t10 anyway so less than 1% of the playerbase are going beyond that point anyway let alone grinding right down to one.

    For new events yes a lot play close to optimal, other events not as many.
  • TheOncomingStorm
    TheOncomingStorm Posts: 489 Mover and Shaker
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    "David wrote:
    Moore"]Hello everyone,

    Beginning tomorrow (Thursday, March 17, 2016) we will be testing out some new scaling adjustments during the Enemy of the State event.

    Here’s word from Anthony at Demiurge:

    Mission Difficulty Adjustment Test

    We will be running a one-event test for the mission difficulty adjustment feature for the story event Enemy of the State this Thursday. We are making a big change to the difficulty and how missions re-play. The main things we are trying to accomplish with this change are improving how mission difficulty is calculated and making missions more about completing challenging-but-fun missions rather than playing missions quickly, at set times during the day.

    Mission Difficulty
    The first thing I want to talk about is how the difficulty of the missions are changing. Previously, the system presented you with opponents based on your characters’ levels. There was a couple of quirks with this system. In some circumstances, it could be disadvantageous to level characters, or to add a high-level character to your roster. Now, the game will take into account both your heroes’ power levels and heroes’ levels into account when establishing the difficulty of the mission.

    Playing When You Want to Play
    The next big change we are introducing is how missions are re-played. Previously, after beating a mission, the strictly optimal strategy was to wait 8 hours and play it again. We wanted to update the system to give you more freedom about when you play the game.

    In the test event, missions will be worth the same amount of points the first six times you play it. Missions get harder each of these times. Once a mission is beaten six times, the difficulty stops increasing.

    After that, each time you beat a mission, it will be worth less points, similar to the old system. The amount of times it takes for a mission to be restored to full points after one play is 24 hours (up from 8). A mission can be beat 5 times (down from 6) until you reach the minimum amount of points a mission is worth, 20 points (up from 1). Our goal with this change is to make Story events more about beating challenging missions rather than having to beat missions quickly at set intervals during the day.

    What’s Next?
    The event after Enemy of the State will return to the original difficulty system. We will be looking at how people did and listen to what everyone is saying about it. Once we are comfortable with our findings, we will touch base with everyone again and let everyone know how it went and what we are planning on doing in the future.

    We’re all pretty excited about the new changes and hope you enjoy them as well. As part of a thank-you for helping us with testing this system, we will be rewarding users who participate in it. Just for playing in the event, you will get three extra Enemy of the State tokens. If you place in the top 50 of your leaderboard you will also receive 10 Command Points. These will be gifted to everyone that participated the day after the event ends.

    Addition info:

    * Mission Difficulty Change (commonly referred to as scaling)
    o Mission difficulty
      - We have changed the way the game determines which level enemies you should go against to be more accurate. Instead of basing difficulty solely on heroes’ levels, it takes your heroes’ power levels into account as well. - Previously, missions increased in difficulty based on your performance within the event. Mission difficulty is now set at the start of the event and does not change for the duration of the event. - In the old system, some players saw a big jump in difficulty between the easier missions in a chapter and the harder ones. That's been smoothed out. - Players at higher levels will begin to see enemies higher than 395. - As your roster gets stronger, you'll see enemies that are relatively easier. (Their levels will still increase, but more slowly than yours do.) - The amount of Power levels an opponent has is based on their level.
        · Opponents at base level or under will only have a single power level for each of their powers. This scales up to the max level which is 13 power levels. · Opponents shouldn’t have more than 13 Power levels at any point.


      o Missions increase in difficulty after beating them
        - After completing a mission, a screen is shown showing how many levels the enemy has gained. - Each mission will increase in difficulty six times. - Typically, Join Forces missions do not increase in difficulty.
      o The amount of points a mission is worth
        - The amount of points you earn while playing a mission no longer changes based on other players’ scores. (This was commonly referred to as rubber banding.) - The first six times you beat a Mission will be worth the same amount of points. - After the seventh time you beat a mission, it will be worth less points.
          · Each time you beat the mission after the seventh completion will increase the time it takes to receive full points by 24 hours · The amount of times it takes for a mission to reach the minimum amount of points it is worth is five times (down from six times)
          - The minimum amount of points a mission is worth is now 20 (increased from 1). - Typically, Join Forces missions decrease in points immediately after playing it once.”

        1) this a great improvement. Playing your own schedule has been requested forever.

        2) Scaling is an improvement if and only if the increased difficulty is based on a controlled amount, not a variable. Meaning incremental scaling to test skills is good, while scaling based on how well players did on the previous level of difficulty (damage taken) is bad. Players should not receive extra penalties for passing the level of difficulty they were supposed to pass.

        Ex. Node has set increases of 20 levels each time a node is beat is fair and fun. Node that increases by 20, then 50, then 40 based on how player beats each node is punitive and not fun.

        3) A huge "fun" obstacle remains. Players need to be able to use their entire roster. They cannot be forced to use only their best few characters because scaling is based on their top end of their roster. Each node's base scaling should be calculated using only the characters selected for that node attempt.

        This game has an incredibly diverse character base that the development team has devoted a large amount of resources on. The question still remains, when will players new allowed to use more of them aside from the dictations of weekly buffs?

        TL;DR: Great work on improving time consumption and schedule flexibility. MPQ has always had problems with scaling. There had always been a chasm between what the development team has considered fun and fair, and what players have had to overcome for rewards at the expense of an experience that seems more like work than leisure. Therfore, I don't expect scaling to be fixed, although it won't be due to a lack of effort; it'll be due to a continued lack of understanding.
      • fun_and_gun
        fun_and_gun Posts: 120 Tile Toppler
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        hmmm...156k for the 25 cp progression reward
      • Daiches
        Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
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        As a long time veteran PVE player, I just want to say that I hope this system will be tested once and never implemented.

        The optimal way to play this is to clear 7 times right at the start and 6 times at the end. That's not play when you want. That is do 2 grinds. Even worse when at sub flips, because then you will do the 6 att the end and the 7 for the new sub. 13x 9 nodes (average) is 117 clears. Do you know how long that takes? Do you know how insanely long that takes in EOTS?

        In my current slice (the only one that works well), those 117 clears would need to happen round 11pm. I would be playing non stop till 2am at least..

        I'm. NOT doing that. If these changes get implemented, I'm quitting PVE.

        You should never want your customers to quit playing. It is bad for the health of the game.
      • Azoic
        Azoic Posts: 269 Mover and Shaker
        edited March 2016
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        I quit trying to be at the top of pve long ago due to the time requirements. Now you are ever increasing max progression, AND increasing time to be competetive. So essentially, you are fixing pve by just pushing people entirely away from that aspect of your game, or entirely, since pve was at least a good source of iso.

        I was excited when I saw the bit about 6 clears worth same points...now, maybe take away them refreshing at 24 hours. At least that would be a start to ending the grind. All nodes starting at such higher levels...I had fun playing with teams in the trivial nodes.

        I wish scaling could somehow be based on teams you use on the node. I have a high oml now. Most of the 3* are fully unusable even boosted. Even if just using 4*, need hp all the time. So basically every pve and pvp battle requires oml. Not a lot of fun

        The grind just burns people out. Pvp is so much more enjoyable and fun, well, until it is time to hop.
      • truxcer
        truxcer Posts: 9
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        if PvE scaling based on number of covers in my roster, doesn't it encourage selling every character that i'm not using and keeping only 1 cover of it for essential nodes? And how stimulating selling of collections works for health of game based on collecting?
      • theo199
        theo199 Posts: 79
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        Sounds perfect to me.
        I hated pve because of the go-get-a-life 8h system.
        Great!
      • TheOncomingStorm
        TheOncomingStorm Posts: 489 Mover and Shaker
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        Question: If all the levels of difficulty are relatively equal based on each player's roster, then in theory, players are facing equal challenges to complete the hardest scaled node.

        Why then is the reward structure arbitrary?

        Let me try to explain. Instead of being based on the game skill of each player overcoming their in game obstacles to determine success, the players who get the best rewards are those that can overcome their obstacles and in addition life obstacles. Players with less life responsibilities are the ones that win. So if someone has no kids, or is willing to sacrifice time from work or wife/friends/family/etc., they have a better chance of placement than others.

        Therfore, instead of being based on game obstacles, the rewards structure is also largely based on factors not at all related to the game.

        If a player is going to spend about 3 hours per day (or 1/8th of their entire day) and overcomes every game obstacle (defeats every level node difficulty), how are they unworthy of 1st place rewards simply because they had to change a diaper, finish a report, or help their spouse after a difficult day?

        It's time the game gives rewards that reflect the time and effort put into those rewards. It's time for progression rewards.

        Anyone that disagrees, I challenge you to defeat every level difficulty of each node, then tell me your level of time, effort, and accomplishment does not merit top rewards.

        TL;DR: Games should be about game challenges, not life challenges. Rewards should reflect this principle.
      • ammenell
        ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
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        "David wrote:
        Moore"][...]
        What’s Next?
        The event after Enemy of the State will return to the original difficulty system. We will be looking at how people did and listen to what everyone is saying about it. Once we are comfortable with our findings, we will touch base with everyone again and let everyone know how it went and what we are planning on doing in the future.
        [...]
        im really excited for this one.
        dont really care how that change plays out, whats way more important is there is a change to begin with.

        even more important: letting everyone know.
        i dont believe it until i see it, but all the other details are irrelevant - as long as there is communication at all.
      • TheOncomingStorm
        TheOncomingStorm Posts: 489 Mover and Shaker
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        Daiches wrote:
        As a long time veteran PVE player, I just want to say that I hope this system will be tested once and never implemented.

        The optimal way to play this is to clear 7 times right at the start and 6 times at the end. That's not play when you want. That is do 2 grinds. Even worse when at sub flips, because then you will do the 6 att the end and the 7 for the new sub. 13x 9 nodes (average) is 117 clears. Do you know how long that takes? Do you know how insanely long that takes in EOTS?

        In my current slice (the only one that works well), those 117 clears would need to happen round 11pm. I would be playing non stop till 2am at least..

        I'm. NOT doing that. If these changes get implemented, I'm quitting PVE.

        You should never want your customers to quit playing. It is bad for the health of the game.


        My question is if you had 54 nodes to beat in a 24 hour period (with when played not mattering), would that be palatable if the rewards were progression based (so no grinding)?

        Let's face it grinding and scaling are the most demoralizing parts of pve.
      • Gryffle
        Gryffle Posts: 25 Just Dropped In
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        A lot of **** going on as usual but this sounds like a great change to me. PVE has always been the most fun when it's about taking on a challenging team and having to figure out the best team to oppose them with, what colours to prioritise, who to target first etc. Gauntlet was always great for this. I'll wait and see, but hopefully there'll be some change to fighting endless combinations of Dark Avengers?

        At any rate, looking forward to trying the new format!
      • Xenoberyll
        Xenoberyll Posts: 647 Critical Contributor
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        Cover Max. I didn't have time to test with Max champion levels, sorry =/

        Why not actual level of the characters? i have a lot of cover maxed 4 stars that are useless against lvl 350+ opponents because i don't have the ISO to level them. Covers mean very little.

        Also if nodes are regenerating points over a 24h period starting when you hit a node the 7th time, the optimal time to hit them would be as soon as possible. That means the "Play when you want" intention is a failure before launch.
      • Quebbster
        Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
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        I Think this change will suit me well since none of the PvE end times suit me well for a long grind at the end. Now I can just pick slice 2, grind as much as I want in the evening and then see where that takes me, placement-wise. I do like the HP from placing top 50 though, so it will be interesting to see how much effort it takes to Place there.
        On the other hand, I will miss being able to grind trivial nodes with two-stars and grossly underleveled fourstars...