PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

OzarkBoatswain

I don't know what a Join Forces mission is.

Nellyson

Ozark Boatswain wrote:

I don't know what a Join Forces mission is.

It's the loaner node. It's where you're only allowed to use the 3 specific characters that are required. Basically the very first node usually. It's got a yellow circle around it instead of blue or red.

stowaway

So the 10 Command Points for placing top 50? Do those go to people who join a fresh bracket on the last day?

I basically have the same reaction as everyone else who plays PvE competitively. Which is: please no. It definitely looks like a boon for people who are more casual about it, which is a much larger population, of course.

I'll just add that lately, if it's not a new character release, it hasn't even been necessary to get every node to 7/7 rewards in order to place in the top 10 -- as long as you're doing optimal clears. At least not in Slice 3. (I'm 1st place in the Simulator right now, and it feels like people are just handing it to me.) But when it's a new character release, all bets are off, and under this system the grinding will get insane like never seen before.

Overall, it feels like they spent a lot of time building themselves a bandage that was bigger than the problem.

Pylgrim

As others have said, these are great news for casual players, terrible for competitive players. If it's going to be kept, the reward scheme needs to be adjusted as well. The amount of sacrifice and effort necessary is going to be absolutely heartbreaking to everybody who inevitably ends being left out of top 10 and gets no 4*s, even more so than it is now.

Nevertheless, this is just a test, so complaining is worthless right now. I'll be aiming myself for the top-50 CP reward (please, please, PLEASE don't make the top 10 reward one of the highly-sought top 4*s, PLEASE) and see how it goes.

Dayv

In my opinion, none of these changes address the real problem:

Competitive PvE always has been and always will be a bad idea.

All this does is create a new model for "optimal play". A new metagame for placement that has little to nothing to do with how good a player is at winning matches.

PvE can be fun without a leaderboard. Look at The Gauntlet concept (perhaps not its punishing difficulty for minimal rewards), or the Ant-Man and TAHulk special events, or even DDQ.

Stop turning repetition into a game and start rewarding people for passing new challenges. Add in some elements of choice (e.g. branching hard or easy paths where the player may only choose one path to complete). If repetition is to be a factor, do more events in the Galactus model where you play for progression only, and it doesn't really matter whether you arbitrarily did "better" than another player.

But not this. Not the new way or the old way.

kirk justice

Don't know if it's been said already, but I think the devs and David deserve a thanks for communicating this information so well. Knowing the changes ahead of time, and how thoroughly they were explained is greatly appreciated.

Various38

I am one of the more casual players you are all speaking of so I don't mind the change. When you get up passed T50 that's where the competition really kicks in and it becomes heartbreaking and painstaking. I have a lot to do in a day and don't have the time to play a full round every 8 hours so having the points set works for me tremendously.

Will I have to grind my life away to get to T10...Yes.
Will I have to play on a clock every 8 hours...No
Will I still be able to get progression with minimal time played...Yes

To me, it looks like the only thing broken is the bracket placement like many have said. Does it need retooling...that is a resounding YES!!
The next question is, how will this affect alliance play?

These are just some of my random thoughts while I am at work missing a chance to grind down my nodes because none of the times fit any of my schedule. Now if we can get a better fix for PVP matchmaking, we may be going in the right direction.

madok

I applaud you for giving us something different to try but I think you have already gotten PVE almost perfect with Ultron and Galactus.

Those events are all about working as a team towards a larger goal. I would love it if all PVEs were like that so we don't have the grinding stress.

I do look forward to seeing how the scaling changes turn out.

Pylgrim

Also, Anthony, I see you browsing and looking at our reactions. Could I request that you personally post announcements like these and further discussion? David Hi-Fi does well his copying-and-pasting, but it would be much, much appreciated to hear directly from a developer and have some interaction, something that we haven't seen in half a year and especially missed the latest 3 months, after IceIX's departure.

ruyen

Why can't you simply change how new characters are introduced?

I'd say give all 3 covers via progression rewards, like HB was introduced with.

Possible Balance Concerns..

If you're against giving 3 covers in progression because you feel it would be too easy, maybe raise the point reqs if you have to. But honestly, giving 1 of each cover to everyone who puts decent effort is not game breaking at all, it's just the equivalent to the free loaner you get to use in the subsequent PvP.

However you do it, please change it so it's not just an elite few who grind optimally with their magical abundance of free time. This format of new releases has pissed me off for ages. It burns players out, and is just not fun at all.

Uninspired

First, as someone who gave up on PVE to focus on PVP because it offered more flexibility regarding when you play, I think these changes are great. If all I want is progression (which I have to assume can still be done in about 4 clears per sub as before), then I can just do them whenever I feel like it and not feel like I'm disadvantaging myself with early clears. This includes the option to not play immediately after a sub flips, play a quick round while in line somewhere, or even play the fun/less annoying subs 6 times and the annoying (aka Juggernaut) subs once.

However, I do see one potential problem with the 20 point minimum for anyone targetting top placement. This means that the optimal clear is not clear all quick, wait 20 hours, then grind. It's actually better to, after the initial clears for max points, immediately grind the cheapest node to 20 and play it nonstop for 20 hours until the final grind. Even if you average just 10 clears an hour (not hard for the easiest node), you gain 20pts x 10 clears x 20 hours = 4000 points. This is worth about 1 clear, and certainly more than you lose from the early grind on one cheap node. Thus, top placement becomes about the willingness to play the same node non-stop, because those 20 point clears will be enough to set you apart. I think rewarding players for this kind of behavior is moving in an unhealthy direction.

Dragon_Nexus

I can see what the idea was.
Get rid of the clicking-in-every-8-hours aspect of it and simply create a "Clear the nodes 6 times within the life span of the sub event" idea that's much more casual and relaxed. Less regimented. That by itself isn't a bad idea. The obvious thing to do is say "Six clears and that's your lot" so after your 6 clears, the nodes are worth 0 points, but you get the last item drop from it.

The problem is they realised the obvious issue with that. Everyone will do the 6 clears and end up with max points. So they've made this compromise whereby you still gain points, but less than maximum.

And that pulls the grinding right back into play again, only more so and much harder than before. I've casually done PvE for a while now unless it's a new character. I don't grind everything down to 1 because I'm not fast enough or patient enough. I grind a bit and it does me fine, I aim for progression usually. But now the optimal way to play is to bash out those 6 clears ASAP and then hit a 7th to start the 24 hour clock. That's an immense amount of play for a newly opened sub event. That's a good 2-3 hours solid play to do that, at least. And then before the sub closes you need to do another 2 hours of grinding and hope you have enough people left to do the 6 clears again with the new sub event plus the clear to start the 24 hour timer again.

This was a good idea on paper, but I foresee the execution being a really harsh experience.

Nellyson

Ok, let's try this for the 3rd time because I guess this post is inflammatory. And yes, I have edited my sentences to be about actions and not against people. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but I am trying to show that placing in PVE is just PVP.

I would think these changes are fantastic and amazing, if it weren't for one caveat.

These changes ignore the fact that PVE is about placement!!!!

All of these changes only make sense if we were only playing to hit those progression marks. The grind never goes away when we the players have to place in the top XX to get the covers we want. Why do the devs keep ignoring that fact???? Get rid of placement in PVE!!!!!! Any change you make while ignoring this absolute fact will be ignorant and stupid. How can we ever approve of any changes until you learn that the grind is always going to be there to make placements? Get rid of placements and you get rid of the grind. Simple. Learn it.

Get rid of placement. Get rid of the grind.

Ok, say it again.

Get rid of placements. Get rid of the grind.

Ok, last time just to make sure you understand it.

IF WE GET RID OF PLACEMENTS IN PVE, WE ELIMINATE THE GRIND!
New motto that everyone should adopt until we actually get PVE instead of this PVP hidden in a PVE format.

wymtime

A lot of people are talking about the amount of clears people wil be doing and what I will say is unless players are going for top 1-5 maybe 10 it is not going to have that much impact. For PVE I play it regularly. I do all trivial nodes 7 times, essential and normal nodes 3-4 times unless I don't get the CP and then I will focus on those nodes. I don't see the majority of players grinding down nodes 11 times for the new covers. Most people have other commitments other than MPQ and if a full clear takes 20-30 min then it will take 5 and 1/2 hrs a day for PVE.
My bigger concern is for scaling. What will trivial nodes look like now? Will all the nodes start out higher? If the trivial nodes scale up and get harder suddenly you are having to use your boosted characters or 4* for 9 nodes instead of 6. That means more health packs. Also with enemy of the state now we are going to get survival nodes scaling up. That will not be fun at all.

I am interested in seeing these changes. I am a little afraid, but I am also interested to see about taking on nodes differently. Maybe you grind a couple nodes down 6 times then come back q couple hours later and do the same on another couple. This might bring in some different strategies to compete in PVE as well.

Demiurge_Anthony

Hey everyone,

I am going to try and answer any questions about the new difficulty system that's in place for tomorrow's Enemy of the State event. A lot of questions people have asked are questions we don't have answers to yet. We are running this test to find what people think of it and get your feedback. Feel free to ask, but don't be offended if they go unanswered.

What level enemies will I encounter?

One of the biggest questions I am seeing is that people don't have an idea on while level enemies they will be playing against. Over the past week I have been testing this and are some of my findings:

NOTE: These are all numbers you'll be able to see tomorrow when you see the event for yourself. I am just giving you the information a little early

2* Roster (all 2 Star characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 71
Caps at 120

Hardest Mission
Starts at 107
Caps at 179

3* Roster (all 3* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 125
Caps at 209

Hardest Mission
Starts at 186
Caps at 295

4* Roster (all 4* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 193
Caps at 299

Hardest Mission
Starts at 285
Caps at 350

5* Roster (all 5* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 362
Caps at 427

Hardest Mission
Starts at 413
Caps at 478

My Personal account (1 level ~350 5*, 3 Championed 4* and a handful of championed 3-Stars and under)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 195
Caps at 300

Hardest Mission
Starts at 286
Caps at 351

CrookedKnight

This is great for PvEs where I just care about progression and tokens (since I doubt there will be 301 people per bracket pushing for max progression and CP, getting the former should also give me the latter) but for all the reasons stated above it's terrible for events where I actually need the placement covers, i.e. new character releases. The system of 6 clears at full points and then a 24 hour clock is going to make for a hellish situation where optimal play involves grinding the start and end of every sub -- clear seven times ASAP to start the point-regenerating clock, then five clears per fight (or as close as you can get it) at the end. At which point it's time for another seven clears because the next sub just started. At least under the current paradigm there's only one grind!

It'll be interesting to see how many people will actually subject themselves to that nightmare. I'd abandon any hope of PvE placement and just get my covers from tokens and PvP, rather than try it. But the fact that such behavior is incentivized at all is a problem with the rewards model, and any shift to "play when you want" must address it.

Also, it's a comparatively minor point but if the EOTS tokens are going to be for a vault then the bonus tokens should be given at the beginning of the event, not the end, so we can actually use them in the vault.

Phumade

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I am going to try and answer any questions about the new difficulty system that's in place for tomorrow's Enemy of the State event. A lot of questions people have asked are questions we don't have answers to yet. We are running this test to find what people think of it and get your feedback. Feel free to ask, but don't be offended if they go unanswered.

What level enemies will I encounter?

One of the biggest questions I am seeing is that people don't have an idea on while level enemies they will be playing against. Over the past week I have been testing this and are some of my findings:

NOTE: These are all numbers you'll be able to see tomorrow when you see the event for yourself. I am just giving you the information a little early

2* Roster (all 2 Star characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 71
Caps at 120

Hardest Mission
Starts at 107
Caps at 179

3* Roster (all 3* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 125
Caps at 209

Hardest Mission
Starts at 186
Caps at 295

4* Roster (all 4* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 193
Caps at 299

Hardest Mission
Starts at 285
Caps at 350

5* Roster (all 5* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 362
Caps at 427

Hardest Mission
Starts at 413
Caps at 478

My Personal account (1 level ~350 5*, 3 Championed 4* and a handful of championed 3-Stars and under)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 195
Caps at 300

Hardest Mission
Starts at 286
Caps at 351

Txs this is actually really useful and meaningful info. Much appreciates

Dragon_Nexus

From where I am, that looks to me like the easiest mission has become quite a lot harder and the hardest mission is about the same.
That's...unpleasent.

Nellyson

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Hey everyone,

I am going to try and answer any questions about the new difficulty system that's in place for tomorrow's Enemy of the State event. A lot of questions people have asked are questions we don't have answers to yet. We are running this test to find what people think of it and get your feedback. Feel free to ask, but don't be offended if they go unanswered.

What level enemies will I encounter?

One of the biggest questions I am seeing is that people don't have an idea on while level enemies they will be playing against. Over the past week I have been testing this and are some of my findings:

NOTE: These are all numbers you'll be able to see tomorrow when you see the event for yourself. I am just giving you the information a little early

2* Roster (all 2 Star characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 71
Caps at 120

Hardest Mission
Starts at 107
Caps at 179

3* Roster (all 3* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 125
Caps at 209

Hardest Mission
Starts at 186
Caps at 295

4* Roster (all 4* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 193
Caps at 299

Hardest Mission
Starts at 285
Caps at 350

5* Roster (all 5* characters at max level)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 362
Caps at 427

Hardest Mission
Starts at 413
Caps at 478

My Personal account (1 level ~350 5*, 3 Championed 4* and a handful of championed 3-Stars and under)
Easiest Mission
Starts at 195
Caps at 300

Hardest Mission
Starts at 286
Caps at 351

So question and hopefully you're still around, but does this mean that all the nodes start with the absolute lowest one at 195 for you? If so, I'm kinda sad cause now I can't use my level 70 and below characters anymore. I used to use them for the first 3 as I gained covers just to play test them for myself. Is this disappearing now?

ClydeFrog76

I like the changes, but I'm a casual player now and never go for high ranks. They don't make sense if you're keeping the current competitive nature of PVE.