PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

hodayathink

Xenoberyll wrote:

Demiurge_Anthony wrote:

Cover Max. I didn't have time to test with Max champion levels, sorry =/

Why not actual level of the characters? i have a lot of cover maxed 4 stars that are useless against lvl 350+ opponents because i don't have the ISO to level them. Covers mean very little.

I think (or at least hope) he means the pre-championing max levels (i.e. 94, 166, 270), not that he only tested them at a random level at 13 covers.

Unknown

Actually I kinda hopeing it was slightly differing from this can instead it be a little more simplified. For example every first node a player hits is worth 200 points at full and average starting levels are 34 for me. What I was wishing was we get as many runs at this as we wanted but every time you challenged the node the computer difficulty changed by ten levels so the second time I faced them they where 43 then 53 then 63 and so on till I couldn't beat them any longer forcing me to the next node that starts off at average 39 for me. Then the same principal applying as before you ask what about championed characters the enemy I think is championed as well. If not correct me if I am wrong

Bowgentle

Yeah, I was afraid that the scaling "fix" would mean "increase the difficulty of the easy nodes".

Thank you, but that is not the PVE fixes we were looking for.

I recently started playing PVE again because I need more ISO than I can ever get even if I play 24/7, but if I'm out of healthpacks after the easy nodes, I'll just quit altogether.

PVP already is a chore, I'm not going to play Gauntlet-style in every PVE for 70 ISO rewards and critical boosts.

Dauthi

Bowgentle wrote:

Yeah, I was afraid that the scaling "fix" would mean "increase the difficulty of the easy nodes".

Thank you, but that is not the PVE fixes we were looking for.

I recently started playing PVE again because I need more ISO than I can ever get even if I play 24/7, but if I'm out of healthpacks after the easy nodes, I'll just quit altogether.

PVP already is a chore, I'm not going to play Gauntlet-style in every PVE for 70 ISO rewards and critical boosts.

While I agree we should be getting more ISO, I prefer puzzle quest, not grind quest. Mindlessly destroying easy nodes was in no way a "puzzle" or fun, and hard gauntlet style nodes bring skill, strategy, and a full rosters into PVEs.

D4Ni13

DayvBang wrote:

In my opinion, none of these changes address the real problem:

Competitive PvE always has been and always will be a bad idea.

All this does is create a new model for "optimal play". A new metagame for placement that has little to nothing to do with how good a player is at winning matches.

PvE can be fun without a leaderboard. Look at The Gauntlet concept (perhaps not its punishing difficulty for minimal rewards), or the Ant-Man and TAHulk special events, or even DDQ.

Stop turning repetition into a game and start rewarding people for passing new challenges. Add in some elements of choice (e.g. branching hard or easy paths where the player may only choose one path to complete). If repetition is to be a factor, do more events in the Galactus model where you play for progression only, and it doesn't really matter whether you arbitrarily did "better" than another player.

But not this. Not the new way or the old way.

Completely agree with this. MPQ doesn't have PvE right now. Just 2 kinds of PvP

Bowgentle

Dauthi wrote:

Bowgentle wrote:

Yeah, I was afraid that the scaling "fix" would mean "increase the difficulty of the easy nodes".

Thank you, but that is not the PVE fixes we were looking for.

I recently started playing PVE again because I need more ISO than I can ever get even if I play 24/7, but if I'm out of healthpacks after the easy nodes, I'll just quit altogether.

PVP already is a chore, I'm not going to play Gauntlet-style in every PVE for 70 ISO rewards and critical boosts.

While I agree we should be getting more ISO, I prefer puzzle quest, not grind quest. Mindlessly destroying easy nodes was in no way a "puzzle" or fun, and hard gauntlet style nodes bring skill, strategy, and a full rosters into PVEs.

If the nodes are one-and-done, absolutely.
13 clears per sub plus 4 hr grind at the end of sub and new sub, absolutely not.

bobbyfish

Lot of negativity on here, but well done for trying something new, I think it sounds interesting

Plus it's only one event, so if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter!

Pessi

Nice job on the communication on this one - it really helps.

I think running a test like this on a long PVE with several wave nodes is very ambitious though, but I'll enter this with an open mind. I guess because this is popular it makes sense.

I'm a top 20-50 player right now and my 3* roster should be able to deal with this change. I can see myself grinding down all nodes before bed using all available characters rather than previously taking an hour after work to grind down then do the first clear of the next sub.

I'm excited to try this, Enemy of the state is one of my favorites, I just hope it's not scaled to heavily on the first run.

A useful comparison would be the levels of the first sub nodes before and after the scaling changes

Magic

I have mixed feelings about this change. I don't go for placement in PvE for a long time but I needed to grind only 3 times per sub to get 25 CP (or LT token before). Now it seems more and if it's the case - I don't like the change.

I want a real PvE without placement to play at my own pace (and if I have time to grind - I will get great rewards, if not - no worries).

Anyway - I will gladly test something new as the game is in such a stale state any freshness is welcome (and no - new heroes are not a fresheners - they are a pain).

Polares

D4Ni13 wrote:

DayvBang wrote:

In my opinion, none of these changes address the real problem:

Competitive PvE always has been and always will be a bad idea.

All this does is create a new model for "optimal play". A new metagame for placement that has little to nothing to do with how good a player is at winning matches.

PvE can be fun without a leaderboard. Look at The Gauntlet concept (perhaps not its punishing difficulty for minimal rewards), or the Ant-Man and TAHulk special events, or even DDQ.

Stop turning repetition into a game and start rewarding people for passing new challenges. Add in some elements of choice (e.g. branching hard or easy paths where the player may only choose one path to complete). If repetition is to be a factor, do more events in the Galactus model where you play for progression only, and it doesn't really matter whether you arbitrarily did "better" than another player.

But not this. Not the new way or the old way.

Completely agree with this. MPQ doesn't have PvE right now. Just 2 kinds of PvP

Agree.

Points should not regenerate. I think it would be so much better if it was like with Galaktus, so basically you need to play the nodes 7 times every 24 hours, but because it doesnt regenerate points, when it is not important.

Of course if we do it like that, it doesnt make sense anymore to have scoreboards and final position for the event. Just node rewards and progression rewards.


New format is probably worse, having to play for 4-5 hours without stop to maximize points. This is probably going to be a nightmare for new releases :S (and even more for an event with survival nodes like this one).

PS: How many times we will need to clear each node to get all the progression rewards?

simonsez

OJSP wrote:

The problem is, we don't know what works and what doesn't in this experiment.. what outcome do the developers want to get to make this a successful experiment?

Or to put it another way, I wish I knew what they'd consider a failure, so I can go ahead and do that.

rbdragon

If I had my way, here's how I'd implement PvE (assuming the competitive aspect HAD to stay as part of it):

• The 24hr countdown starts as soon as the sub begins. You still get the first 6 clears at full price, but they can be done anytime without a penalty of a countdown after the 6th. Anotherwards, if your sub begins at 2pm, and you clear your 6th time at midnight, the countdown would be at the 14hr mark. This truly allows players to play when they want with no penalty.
• The essential node scaling is based on your essential character's level first, then your roster second.
• The other 6 nodes would be something like this, based on my roster of a lvl 420 5*, 7 champed 4*, etc:
  -Trivial Node (30 - 50) -scales very gently
  -Trivial Node (70 - 100) -scales very gently
  -Easy Node (120 - 150) -scales very gently
  -Easy - Normal Node (180 - 220) -scales normally
  -Normal - Hard Node (250 - 300) -scales normally
  -Hard Node (300 - 350) -scales normally
  This allows us to use our whole roster if we so choose.
• There would be an increase of node prizes to 10 per node (and the 1CP would always be given 1st!)

I'm sure there there's a few other tweaks I'd make, but I'm strictly talking about what's potentially changing.

boldfacedfemme

Um.. I thought the first six plays on a node were supposed to be the same amount of points each? I just played the first node on the 48hr sub, and points went from 200 to 160.

Im confused.

fmftint

boldfacedfemme wrote:

Um.. I thought the first six plays on a node were supposed to be the same amount of points each? I just played the first node on the 48hr sub, and points went from 200 to 160.

Im confused.

Is it the loaner node? They said those would decay on the first play

boldfacedfemme

Oh, OK. I seemed to have missed that part in the initial post. I don't remember reading that. Thanks.

Wolarsen

I have always disliked having to play "on the clock", and I will thank any initiative trying to ease that.
Let's see how new rules unfold, but on 1st sight I fear we will still have heavy grinding for placement (at the start and end of each sub instead of each 8 hours). So, why regenerate points at all? Make it a lower, fixed amount for clears after 7th (20 seems too drastic, btw!); you will still be forcing people to grind for placement, but at least it will be REALLY clock-free

But then you shouldnt have people grinding for miserable amounts of points; I would also like to have PvE free of competition; I just love gauntlet, Ultron and galactus events because of that. Hard last nodes are usually healthpack crackers, so developers should not fear decreasing pack sales because of removing competition (if they do so).
So remove placement prizes, extend progression reward list (so you do not hurt advancement of non PvP players), make last nodes harder to reward dedicated/skilled players and best rosters.

Linkster79

Before anything else I would like to say thanks to Demiurge_Anthony for taking time to answers questions, even if it was to simply state that he doesn't know. Community Managers take note, this is how it should be done.

Back on topic. As somebody who works long shifts I could never hope to be competitive in story events so the refresh changes are good for me to actually get progression rewards, my main concern though like others is that my characters aren't under levelled by choice but by lack of ISO and we shouldn't be punished by scaling for this shortage. D3 Go! keep using the mantra that they want players to be able to use the whole breadth of their roster and not just rely on an A or B team, well when there is a system in place that actively restricts being able to get characters to a useable state then we should not be put in a situation where we have to rely on just a few characters.

JamesV

Entered Enemy of the State.

First non-loaner node in the Sub (survival node) started at 142ish. Champ'd Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Blade all needed health packs post fight as there was no way to stop the sheer damage from the turn to smoke tiles.

Second node starts at 185 which is higher level than all but the 19 characters on my roster (of 89) which is not a good feeling when starting a sub.

nwman

I'm pretty sure I'm skipping this event. It sounds so horrible if this is the future of pve I think I'm giving up pve altogether, except maybe the cp nodes. I may do one clear to be more objective and give it a shot but it sounds terribly more time consuming on a game mode that is already way too time consuming.

The difficulty keeps getting turned up in every enjoyable mode. Ddq is harder and now trivial nodes are going away.

Is this just a blatent attempt to sell more health packs? Because that is all it seems like to me.

SnowcaTT

I have long been on record with my stance "PVE is the devil". The change to no more 20 ISO has been greatly appreciated - I run the trivial nodes x7 for ISO and I run the two CP nodes if possible until I get the CP. Let's check in today, shall we?

First try for Ghost rider essential (I have a very low GR, this would be tough anyway) - 212/213/212. This is going to scale up each time I try it? Pass.

Second node (a wave one, used to be trivial): 159-225. Again, this is going to scale up? Let's test....second time would be 173-245. So I won't be grinding -THAT- wave node.

Here are the things I found useful out of PVE before:
Getting easy Iso, without wiping my best characters which I'll need for PVP.
A bit faster of a path to get CP (two a day, rather than three a week if you place high in PVP).
Not having to use health packs, which I'll need for PVP. So for instance - yep, I have a 290 and I have a Champed Cyc that would be great in every node. I think I'll be using him elsewhere.
Using new characters! I could use the 2*'s again! The "bad" 3*'s! The 4*'s I didn't have covered yet!

Here is what I see this change did to PVE:
No more easy ISO for you! (It's not like you need ISO for anything, right?)
No more easy CP for you! (It's not like CP will help you advance in the game, right?)
No more not using health packs for you! (It's not like you need health packs somewhere else, right?)
No more using a healthy variety of your roster! (It's not like you got bored of using the same ones over and over and over in PVP, right?)

Here is how I see this change for effecting me:
No more PVE running for me! Back to a PVP only game, like it was before.
-ANOTHER- slow down of any roster progress
Even more tedium in using only a very, very few character. I guess it's winfinite or the max 4*'s in every node now.....why do I have these 40 3*'s again?!?