PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

TheOncomingStorm

My report after trying new scaling.

1 hour 15 minutes for one clear not counting GR essential with one wipe and no health packs used.

My hardest node (nowhere to run) started at 292. That seems high for a player with my roster. It took me half an hour with help last time to post a screen shot, so I won't effort one. If someone wants to check my roster my ign is HeroPsychoDrmr.

Also, is this the type of information mpq is looking for? What type of feedback would be most helpful to get the scaling dialed in for future pve's?

aa25

I just finish the first round on the first sub. I will try to address what I think about various things one by one.

Roster based scaling
I have to say I kind of like this new scaling. Previously, my luck screwed me over with the two almost useless 5*. Normally, the opponents on the last three nodes are Lv ~170, 190, 210 (I don't remember the exact numbers). With the new scaling, the opponents are now at a much lower level. I don't need to bring the two 5* for tanking(SS) or rage quit(Phoenix) anymore.

Performance based scaling or whatever it called. You know, the thing that makes opponents gain more levels the more you win the nodes.
I don't like the last one. And probably don't like the current one either. Although, I haven't do the second or the third run yet. Don't know what I feel. But one thing I saw it that the opponents in the wave nodes will gain level even if you fail during the wave. (In my case, it's the last wave of that node.) I don't think this is a right way to do it. Also, you gain only a half of the total points of that node.

PvE game play:
When I read the OP, I get the message that the devs want to change the game play mechanic of this mode from time-schedule-based to something more about challenging game play. I really like this idea. However, I think there are many issues which have been brought up so many times both in this thread and many other threads that do not allow this new mechanic to flow as it should. The first and probably the biggest issue that I see is the reward system. Frankly speaking, the most valuable rewards from the event are in the placement rewards. This alone will direct the game play mechanic back toward the old one. I think this new game play mechanic and the reward system do not go along at all. There is another this about the progression reward I want to write about but I want to get a better feeling about it first. I will come back to it when I finish my 2nd and 3rd rounds (if that would be still doable).


Here are results from my run.

My top 16 characters in my roster (included buffed) (and for whatever my luck is, )
Phoenix(100) Lv 270
SS(001) Lv 270
Ms. Marvel (454) Lv 190 buffed from 115
Psylocke (324) Lv 180 buffed from 114
OBW (355) Lv 176 buffed from 115
2*Thor (355) Lv 176 buffed from 115
Quake (111) Lv 153 buffed from 78
4*DP (001) Lv 140 buffed from 70
Moonie (355) Lv 115
SW (515) Lv 115
3*Bulleye (522) Lv 114
Shulk (423) Lv 114
2*Bulleye (553) Lv 104
3*Cap (143) Lv104
Hulk (532) Lv 103
Grocket (332) Lv 102

The opponents
Infiltrated Lv 100 100 75
One of them wave Lv 82-117 without Phoenix fail... Try again with Phoenix as a tank and manage to clear it with Phoenix at about 50% health. Not sure if it is too hard or just getting a bad board (starved for red + SW pink bombs were dud many times).
Protect your neck Lv 116 117 117 no phoenix
Big bad wolverine Lv 131 131 131 no phoenix
Enemy agent wave Lv 138-147 no phoenix
No where to run 155 156 156 no phoenix. (The first time since I don't know when I can beat the last node without two 5*)

Essential nodes (didn't do them yet.)
Ms. marvel 370 = 110 110 110
Ghost 370 = 110 110 110
Beast wave 555 = 44-45

Pants1000

Sounds like I'm in the minority, but I like the changes. It means I can play a little before work, a little on my lunch break, and a little in the evening without worrying about the 8 hour timer.

PVE shouldn't be about who has the time for optimal clears, but more about who can get through the tough rounds without using many health packs. It's been a while since I ran out of health packs doing PVE, and I'm good with it.

As far as being forced to use the same deck always, I disagree with that too. I used at least 10 different cards so far, partially to save health packs, and I ended up doing the best with healers. Rocket/Groot, KK, and my non-max Hulkbuster worked well for me.

I think people also overestimate how many people will do optimal clears. After 12 hours only 2 people in my session have beat each node 6 times, and that will be much easier than the clears at the end.

Uthgarprime

I am calling it right now, all this feed back is going to be ignored because the one and only factor that will determine if this change stays or not will be how much is spent in real money. If the number of boosts and health packs purchased went up by more than a little, this change will be made permanent asap. Just like championing where they made it sound good then nerfed over half the characters to the ground this is a slight of hand as well. This whole change screams bean counter. when 90% of the feedback is negative you would think they would of already responded but they don't care. They just care if sales went up.

Sandwichboy

As other have said, I think the core idea behind this is sound, and an encouraging sign that the devs are trying to make the game less of a chore for the non-hardcore players with mountains of free time. But this setup simply can not work with the same placement reward structure as pvp. There's really no reason why PvE content SHOULD be using that reward structure in the first place, but it doesn't matter how you shuffle things around, if you still have a system in place where someone can get further ahead by mindlessly grinding more than someone else, then that's what the meta game will continue to be about. As someone who has never been able to grind on that awful 8 hour refresh timer like clockwork, I would really love to see the whole idea of competitive pve just die already. People clearly enjoy the progression based events like the gauntlet, galactus, ant man and Chulk, just make more of that. Please.

fun_and_gun

they're not going to care until the results are in at the end of the event. release the pilot event and then call it a weekend so they don't have to deal with all the negative feedback.

Chief270

2nd post here, now after playing it.

Scaling seems off. Appears that the initial round of scaling should be where the 6/7th clear scaling should be. This has become a major health pack drain.

The increase in difficulty coupled with the impending grind out during sub transitions (not to mention 7 day event) has left me feeling that this is very much a "pass" for me.

I want to like this change. But i cant see myself playing this way even casually.

snlf25

Uthgarprime wrote:

I am calling it right now, all this feed back is going to be ignored because the one and only factor that will determine if this change stays or not will be how much is spent in real money. If the number of boosts and health packs purchased went up by more than a little, this change will be made permanent asap. Just like championing where they made it sound good then nerfed over half the characters to the ground this is a slight of hand as well. This whole change screams bean counter. when 90% of the feedback is negative you would think they would of already responded but they don't care. They just care if sales went up.

I can't really see anybody spending any money to participate in this type of PvE structure so if that is the case it'll fail hard.

puppychow

I took slice 4 and grinded the past 2 hours until my heals were exhausted. So here's my rundown. Highest characters are 4x255s (5 ), then a 190 . I have a ton of 4s that are max covered, purposely left at 181.

One of them: started at 117-167 (trivial), 152-215 after 3 clears (ran out of heals)
Protect Your Neck: started at 166-7 (easy), 277 after 6 clears (and getting the 24 hour timer)
Big Bad Wolverine: started at 186-7 (easy), 203-4 after 1 clear
Enemy Agents: started at 197-209 (normal), 218-28 after 1 clear
Nowhere to Run: started at 221-2 (normal), 241-2 after 1 clear
Beast Essential: started at 63-4 (trivial), 106-7 after 6 clears
Marvel/Ghost Rider Essential: started at 157 (easy), 262 after 6 clears

My friend, with a 2 month old account with lvl 100 2* champs boosted to 140s, had a much easier time. Beast started at 29-30 and ended at 49-50 after 6 clears. Marvel started at 73 and ended at 122.

Normally, I start trivial at 100-120, so I did get a bump in scaling. That said, my scaling hasn't been as horrible as I originally expected. Normally, my scaling on the normal nodes will break 300 after a few clears. Thus, I would say that my scaling curve has flattened rather than widen between low trivial and high normal.

I was certainly taken by surprise that the scaling test includes a fundamental change in pve gaming mechanics. Clearly, game devs are seeking to remove the refresh timer component, and on some level it does make sense and could potentially encourage more casual players to play pve more. On the other hand, the way players are getting punished in scaling for having more powerful rosters would discourage them from spending time in pve if these changes become permanent in the near future. In other words, the devs are seeking to create a more casual environment in pve to widen the player base, just like they did with various changes (i.e. increase in scoring on hits via a change in the formula) in pvp last summer to make pvp more casual player friendly. My main concern, though, is that tilting pve too far toward casuals would discourage vets (especially super whales) from playing pve (especially if your starting node is around 400 because you have max 5s in your roster for example).

Melevorn

My 2 s:


Why should the devs care about committed players who seek high placement in PvE?


Because they're the ones spending the money. Not the 94% of casual players.


As someone who generally varies between Top 10 - Top 50 in every PvE (with far too many #11 finishes!) and who bought yet another Stark Salary last week (largely to get a Quake cover from the Sim vault), I'm with the crowd who think that these changes are... ill-conceived.

I have a job (so I can afford to put $$ into a **** mobile game), a family, and I make enough time to play MPQ moderately competitively. If I'm doing something, I want to feel like I'm doing it well (to me, this means Top 50 and all progression rewards as a minimum, in both PvE and PvP).

I don't have extra time to invest in five (5!) hour grind-fests of PvE. I don't want my few championed 4*'s to be all I use. I also don't want to write off the far-too-much-money I've spent on MPQ. But, I'm close to doing so.

I have plenty of other games to play. My 400+ Steam games have received far too little attention in the last year I've been playing MPQ. I recently got a new laptop for work that'll play most of them. Maybe it's time to retire.

This PvE is certainly pushing me in that direction. Hard.

Timers remain - so the pressure of playing optimally remains. Difficulty has increased, so the depth of my roster (and it's deep) has been devalued. The amount of grinding required to just activate the timers is ridiculous.

If the devs don't realise that their stated objectives and their actual changes are completely misaligned, they need serious help with solutions architectures and systems engineering. How you can trace between the requirement of "not playing by the clock" and the function "use a timer to refresh node points" is beyond me.

Lukoil

I think people missing the fact that "optimal" play will only net you less then 1 full clear value of points (or 2 clears if it is 2 day sub event). So "optimal" play is not the issue.

The issue is the rewards - they are the same! Devs increased the diffuclty and we all gain same critical boosts as before. That is not ok. You made same mistake with ddq and now doing this with pve...Why?
More on that, after initial 7 clears all additional clears will give you zero rewards... ****?
Previous system was better in terms of rewards. 3 8-hour clock clears and final 4 grind clears will bring you near top 10-20 and you'll get all node rewards. right now you clear all nodes and for placement you should do meaningless clears with no rewards AND with increased difficulty... Is that defenition of fun?

Solution? Decrease non-losing points clears to 3 and put 48 hour timer after it. And get rid of critical boost rewards.

zodiac339

What is fun?
1. Relaxing with the Trivial nodes before moving up to the difficult ones that will be more of a challenge to complete.
2. Being able to use my roster of 2-stars and undercovered Legendaries on those trivial nodes, using their underleveled abilities to see how fun they can be to use. The difficult top three are where I expect to take damage and really strategize what I'm doing.

I like the trivial nodes. I like having a place to go that isn't a constant struggle to succeed. I like going to the difficult missions and then going back to the trivial ones to refresh myself, whether by screwing around with things like Ant Man or Mr. Fantastic, or by trouncing the enemy with something really strong so I can smile after getting wiped by an unexpected cascade and a massively scaled attack. Now, there's no trivial. Mission one was chunking out my 2-stars for over two thousand when the Strength in Numbers went off. That's not fun. Why do you think that would be fun?

Bottom line: Leave the challenge where the challenge is supposed to be. If everything is a difficult challenge, that's not fun. It's exhausting.

Xenoberyll

I think the comparison with the Gauntlet is most fitting. It's fun even though some fights are really hard. I like it because you play different lineups and have to be creative for some and most important: you play the nodes ONCE until you win. No grind, no competition about who can schedule his life around the game best and you can get all the rewards if you beat it all while playing on your own schedule. So I like the Gauntlet even though the rewards are mostly lame.

I doubt that anybody played the gauntlet nodes 7 times though, ever!

You got the statistics on that, no test needed and if you'd really read the forums you'd know what changes PVE really needs.

Wolarsen

Scaling has noticeably risen for me; not imposssible but way harder.

A small point: On regular nodes i can track the number of clears by the rewards earned, but on nodes with one-time reward I have no way to know how many times I have done it.

dider152

This has to be the worst conceived idea you guys have ever come up with, and that is saying a lot, from all the **** you have done to the game over the years. The scaling is absolutely horrible, meaning that it will be a slog to get through every node. Nothing drives people to rely on sure things like the Winfinite combo like arbitrary increases in difficulty. And if you wanted to increase difficulty, the least you could do is make node prize collection less random. Getting the CP on those hard and essential nodes is going to be killer if you don't get it on the first try, and I can count on one hand how many times I've gotten CP on the first try. Unless they update the scaling ruleset on this event between nodes, I don't see people doing this event. Personally, I think I'll try my best to collect the CP and aim for final progression, but I really don't see myself going for placement. It's just too difficult.

The whole thing is flawed as well: with the old system, we were making 3 clears and a grind to the end per 24 hours, which would equate to 7 clears. With the new system, you clear 7 times and the score doesn't go down, but the difficulty goes way up. Then, you clear every 8 hours til the end. Seems the feature wasn't tested, because it sucks. At best, now you have to clear about 12 times.

Bulls

After clearing all nonwave nodes opponents lvl seems to be set at 320 for essencial nodes, 327 or 3rd node (one that used to be trivial...) up to 367 on last one. They are doable, but sadly now with that scaling Im FORCED to play certain characters - there's no chance to do it somewhat smoothly without using buffed 4*cyc for me, even tough I like using other chars I simply can't as wolvi can basicly take 3/4 of hp of most of my chars by turn 4.
Now I'll move to wave nodes - wave idea is simply awsome and for that It's most enjoyable part of each sub when they are presented... but just for one clear. I simply can't force myself to repeat them with harder opponents without getting any reward at all. Those are usually ~10min fights that most likely eats 1-3healthpack and award you... nothing. Now when we have 7 rewards for each regular node I really don't see a reason why couldn't we get even same NICE reward from each wave node 7 times as well. C'mon, giving players 6k total more iso for spending hour on repeating same wave node wouldn't put universe in imbalance...

Wolarsen wrote:

A small point: On regular nodes i can track the number of clears by the rewards earned, but on nodes with one-time reward I have no way to know how many times I have done it.

Well... after clearing it 6th time you'll see 24h timer to get full point value of that node, so until that just keep hiting it

WEBGAS

MY two cents here:
- 8 hours refill gone : I'm ok with it. It should give us the chance to play at our own free time, anytime we like.
BUT YOU FAILED when you create a system that force us to clear 7 times a single node in a few hours and then
grind again in order to maximize the points gained and should be able to get in top 10 rewards.
This completely screw our life. If before we should have cleared the nodes 3 times at 8h interval and then grind,
NOW WE ARE forced to clear 7 times plus the final grind : IT'S A SECOND JOB !

- SCALING : I know you would like to make the gameplay more challenging but the increase difficulty should be
made on 3 clears and not 6...this way is not fair and we were forced to use only a restricted bunch of characters.

So this is my proposal: eliminate the 8h refill but give the same amount of points only for the first 3 clears.
let the increase scaling be only for the first 3 clears. Anyway review the reward System. Make it 3 covers for the 1-5 ranked, 2 covers for 6-15 ranked and 1 cover for 16-30.

Am I asking too much? I love this game, but if this is the way you are going, I'm sure I'll be forced to quit because it's not fun anymore

ElAkkra

Registered after reading 17 pages of negativity.

For me, this was much, much, much better. The scaling was reasonable (120-170 on first clear), I only required one health pack for that first clear and didn't have to rely on the top 2 or 3 characters in my roster. My second clear is no longer at the mercy of poor bus-provided wifi, and the timing flexibility is enormously helpful. I've hit the Beast essential 4 times so far and even there the scaling isn't ruinous (I'd normally only hit the trivial nodes more than the 3 times and leave the normal/hard nodes alone, unless I've got healthpacks to burn or they turn out to be easy; this one seemed to be a fraction under-leveled compared to the rest of the nodes).

For reference, my roster is 4 x 5 s with 1 or 2 covers, 5 x 3 champions (Cap, Cyc, Storm, Vision, Daken) at around level 170, the rest of my 3 s at around level 120, about a third fully covered and the rest at about 10 covers (except for poor languishing Punisher), and all the 2 s championed (and most of the 4 characters at 1 cover except for XForce Wolvie who's just about keeping up with the 3s). I normally just about manage to reach the end of the progression with 3 clears plus some soft grinding, but won't ever win a 4 character from PVE. I'm on day three-hundred-and-something (wherever the blue Invisible Woman cover is).

I'm not sure how these new rules are going to play out with 48 hour subs (I presume we're supposed to hit the nodes all 6 times to get the equivalent amount of points as 3 clears is never going to trouble you with the countdown timer), and something seriously needs to be done about the rewards/refreshes on Survival nodes (partial clears shouldn't count against your 6 clear limit, there should be some sort of reward for subsequent clears, even if it's 70 ISO per wave), but otherwise this is looking like a vast improvement.

Wolarsen

by Bulls » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:21 am

Wolarsen wrote:
A small point: On regular nodes i can track the number of clears by the rewards earned, but on nodes with one-time reward I have no way to know how many times I have done it.

Well... after clearing it 6th time you'll see 24h timer to get full point value of that node, so until that just keep hiting it

Yes! When in doubt, brute force!!!!

ammenell

seems like having no 5*s makes that somehow playable.
since i ignore/sell every 5* and have no useable 4*, my highest character is a 178 hulk.
my last node (wolvie, kishu, shinobi) is now lvl 262 after the 6th clear (can see the timer now)

my problem:
i have no ghost rider and refuse to roster cpt marvel, so i dont even try for any kind of placement.
after getting the second CP from the wolverine/hands node i see no point in doing it again for the last reward of 100 iso.

so, while not having the immense scaling and being able to hit most nodes several times and still have health packs left, there is no motivation for me to keep playing.
the rewards are a joke, i get 70/100/250 iso from playing a single seed team in any pvp and that takes one minute.
here i play a wave node with increasing probability of wasting health packs for like 10minutes for the same reward.

[...]
In some circumstances, it could be disadvantageous to level characters, or to add a high-level character to your roster. Now, the game will take into account both your heroes’ power levels and heroes’ levels into account when establishing the difficulty of the mission.
[...]

really had to double check if we are talking about the same game or if i somehow got lost in the MtGPQ or ATPQ boards.
i didnt.
still not sure if we play the same game. clearly i have an easier time with my 5*-free roster than most people are describing with 5*s and well developed 4*s