PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

jobob

I don't have the best roster, but I would call it above average... just thought I'd post my goon levels (some people may find it helpful, I dunno):

Top 10 of My Event Roster:
405 - Phoenix - 10 Covers
386 - Iceman - 13
371 - Cyke - 13
339 - XFDP - 13
315 - BiB Spidey - 4
302 - GT - 13
294 - IMHB - 13
293 - Hood - 13
290 - SS - 7
287 - JG - 13

[All my 4*s except for 3 are fully covered, all 3*s fully covered]

Node #3 (after 1 clear)
311 Soldier
312 Shinobi
312 Kishu

Node #4 (after 1 clear)
326 Lieutenant
326 Wolverine
326 Shinobi

Node #6 (no clears)
337 Shinobi
337 Wolvie
337 Kishu

(Essentials are at 293 with no clears)
(I didn't include the wave levels, I don't know how that scaling works)

So... looks like that #6 will be around 400 for the last clear (that gets a reward).

Other thoughts:
-If it's true that the increase is +10 for everyone, that surprises me... sure, going from 340 - 400 for all rewards sucks... but nowhere near as much as for someone with a lower roster going from 150 - 210.
-I miss the "3 easy + 3 harder" setup. I liked having a few nodes that I could play on my phone during the day for a quick break, without having to really focus on it. There are no quick clears now.
-I've said before, I like having a full roster, and actually using it... this change makes that much, much more difficult. There are only a handful of usable support 3*s I would take into this PVP... IM40, IF, SW, Hood... the rest are just too outmatched.
-That said... while it effectively neuters any roster tiers below your current one, it does promote having a well-rounded roster at whatever tier you are on (and at similar covers & levels). The problem with that is that boosted characters can really screw you over if you build your roster that way.
-I feel like D3 broke a cardinal sin of gaming... ramping up the difficulty, roster needs, time investment, healing requirements... without providing a corresponding increase in rewards. I would say that if this format sticks, double or triple rewards should come with it. Can anyone argue that playing that last node 7 times isn't worth 3 CP? ISO too... especially considering that to beat some of these nodes without having my team get shot to hell in the process, I will sometimes use AP boosts... at 200/5 = 40 ISO a pop, if you just use a single +2, and then get the 70 ISO reward, you have actually LOST ISO on the node. That sucks.

Daiches

I started my 6x clear at the start of the event (11pm) and finished at 2pm.





The reason it took so long was in part difficulty of the nodes making it a huge slog to get through, but mostly because I was not having fun playing..


I think something is fundamentally wrong here.

Vhailorx

Nice humble brag jobob!

That roster is fairly awesome. Clearly top 1%!

I see that your essential nodes were starting at 293 in this event. So you remeber what they were in previous events? Is the new starting point +50 levels over the old?

elvy75

Since everyone is giving their peace of mind, Ill do the same.

My roster: 5* 543 OML level 400, 514 SS lvl 290, 112 pheonix lvl 255. championed 4* JG, HB, cyke, xfw, xfdp, fury, carnage, gt. other max covered 4* elektra, sl, kp, failcap, am, iw, thing, px, dino. 18 championed 38, rest max covered.

This looks as it is well diversified roster, but the problem is that I was forced to use just same few characters over and over again.

Second thing this format of PVE is only good if you dont want to play competitive pve ever again. I am someone who plays new character pve hard, and get to t10 in them, while the other ones i do for node rewards and cp progression reward. This new format is going to make lot more people play just for node rewards. Optimal play time with old format was clear every 8 hr, do up to 3hr grind at the end of sub, and was already meaning that we spent too much time in it. New format optimal is play 6 times at start (with increased difficulty) plus 5 (or 6 at the end of sub.... not sure im not there yet). That means that we have to play two grinds at once, each lasting min 3 hrs. Who has time for that? This is not a work, we are not payed to do so, we play games to remove stress from our lives and have fun. This is not fun, and i sincerely hope you will make things different.

What i think would be the best solution as some already said is to get rid of timer, increase difficulty after each clear (and don't cap it), and let players decide for how many points they are willing to suffer for. Once the players get to the levels they are not able to beat with any type of winfinite combination they will stop playing. Make difficulty of the nodes be the limit, not the timer and diminished returns.

Warbringa

So this is a long post but worth it I believe from a 3*-4* transitioner who mainly plays PvE.

I came down pretty harsh on my first response and after playing it through twice now, I will give it credit for the fact that it does force you to use more and different team combinations due to increased difficulty and using more healthpacks. I used a 2* boosted Thor (lvl 192) on the last hard node due to the damage I had taken completing the other nodes. I have never used a boosted 2* on hard nodes in the past except for trivial or essential nodes (other than OBW).

I think there are a few things they can do to address the main issues with this new system. This event with the Hand ninja was probably one of the worst events to try it out on (or the best I guess depending on your viewpoint if you wanted to see worst case scenarios). Here is what I would recommend:

1.) Start the difficulty lower and have it scale as is from there (specifically the old trivial and essential nodes) - for example I have a good developed 3* roster and almost all of the nodes started at least at level 130 for me with many at 160-180 (except Beast essential since my beast is only lvl 40 I guess it takes that into consideration and his essential node only had a 50 lvl wave), doable but yeah I am taking decent damage from them and they scale about 10-20 levels per completion - the issue is in about one more clear, I will be having a real hard time clearing all of the nodes due to the damage- the problem with this is that I will end up earning less Iso than under the old system and here is why: under the old system I use to clean out the trivial nodes with ease and each trivial node would net me around 700 iso per node per subevent (200 2x 100 3x 70 and 1standard token assumed to be 100 iso but sometimes 2* or 3* which was nice). There were three trivial nodes so that was 2100 iso easy per each subevent with very little time invested. Then there were the essential nodes - with slightly different reward structures but I estimated around 900 iso each if fully cleared (thank you useless critical boost - should be another 250 iso reward there instead). I would usually clear out all of these nodes each subevent unless the node was particularly not worth the effort so there was an approximate another 2700 iso per subevent. Finally the hard nodes. I would clear them at least 3x each (every 8 hours) and grind to get CP rewards and the 500 iso so I would usually play each hard node 3-5 times per subevent depending on luck and iso would vary depending on how fast I got the CP and 500 iso reward.

So the trivial nodes and essential nodes provided be on average, 4800 iso per subevent, a good portion of part of my iso income. The new system means there is no way I will be clearing out these nodes due to the drastic increase in difficulty. So I will be gaining less iso, which is already one of the biggest problems in the game. I believe the old trivial nodes in my case should start out at level 50 where they used to and scale ten levels per clear from there for example. The essential should start generally lower as well. The hard nodes are actually the most fair compared to the old system as right now they are actually started scaling lower than they used to be for me but after two clears are back to where they were in the old system for me.

2.) Progression rewards will need to be addressed as I envision I will not be clearing all the nodes I used to under the old system. I will not get the CP progression on this event, I guarantee. That is a big problem because you have made the overall scaling of the event more difficult, that means less cleared nodes and less points. I got the CP progression with 3 clears per event and some grinding in the old system (mainly iso grinding as noted above). The 25 CP reward was my main way of getting CP and under this new system I can see where there will be many events I may not be able to now attain that reward.

3.) The last issue I foresee is that the new system while getting rid of the 8 hour time parameters, actually will take more time since all the nodes are more difficult. In addition, for placement, the new optimal grind will be even more time intensive - clear all nodes 6 times at the start of an event (which would take hours and hours if even possible due to health pack restrictions) and then grind at the end of the 24 hour reset and THEN you have the new node that will pop up...

On the plus side I do like not having to do the 8 hour refresh and having to use roster diversity has been fun. I can see this system working but there will need to be tweaks to progression rewards, starting scaling levels and maybe allow a few more regenerative health packs instead of max 10 (maybe 12-15)? The only issue that I am not sure if there is a fix to is the third one, the time issue. I suppose reducing initial scaling would help somewhat but not with the optimal clearing issue.

cyineedsn

Leave things like this and multiply the iso and rewards by like...alot.

Or, bring back trivial nodes and stop the increasing levels after every battle. The time it takes to grind the nodes is a deterrant enough, is it really necessary to be fighting all battles against lvl 300 opponents?

Ebolamonkey84

I prejoined s4 last night, and between last night and this morning I hit all non-loaner nodes 6 times. That puts me in 2nd currently.

Roster:
390 OML
357 XFDP (boosted from 277)
355 Classic Cyc (boosted from 275)
351 Iceman (boosted from 271)
286 Phoenix
279 Teen Jean
277 Hulkbuster
271 Beast (boosted from 177)
All 3* champed
other 4* between 160-220

Scaling:
Beast: 91-92 > 99-100 (+8) > 108-109 (+9) > 118-119 (+10) > didn't capture > 140-141 (+22, +11 each) > 152-153 (+12)
Captain Marvel: 226 > 247 (+21) > 268 (+21) > 287 (+19) > 297 (+10) > 309 (+12) > 319 (+10)
Ghost Rider: 226 > 247 (+21) > 268 (+21) > 287 (+19) > 297 (+10) > 309 (+12) > 319 (+10)
One of Them: 169-240 > 184-261 (+15-21) > 201-282 (+17-21) > 219-294 (+18-12) > 238-305 (+19-11) > 259-316 (+21-11) > 281-327 (+22-11)
Protect Your Neck: 240 > 261 (+21) > 282 (+21) > 294 (+12) > 305 (+11) > 316 (+11) > 327 (+11)
Big Bad Wolverine: 268 > 287 (+19) > 297 (+10) > 309 (+12) > 319 (+12) > 330 (+11) > 341 (+11)
Enemy Agents: 282-290 > forgot to record > 304-312 (+22 for two passes, so +11 each) > 315-323 (+11) > 327-334 (+11-12) > 337-345 (+10-11) > 348-356 (+11)
Nowhere to Run: 297 > 309 (+12) > 319 (+10) > 330 (+11) > 341 (+11) > 352 (+11) > 363 (+11)

Thoughts:
- I don't really feel like grinding at the end. I will hit one more time for the 7th full clear and then probably be done. Will only push if pushed by others to stay t10.
- There definitely is a trend with the normal nodes. +20 or so until you hit the 280s, then ~10 added after that
- The scaling on the three traditionally hard nodes isn't too bad for me. Old system would have them eventually be 326/395 by grind time.
- The scaling on the three formally trivial nodes is obviously ridiculously high compared to old way.
- Not sure I like scaling on 2* essential being same as 4*. Hopefully it is because my GR is underleveled.
- This is fine for ones I don't care about; I shudder to think what it would look like for a new character.
- This wasn't too bad because I have 3 of the 4 boosted 4s maxed, but would be rough otherwise.

jobob

Vhailorx wrote:

Nice humble brag jobob!

That roster is fairly awesome. Clearly top 1%!

I see that your essential nodes were starting at 293 in this event. So you remeber what they were in previous events? Is the new starting point +50 levels over the old?

I don't remember exactly where they were, but I would say low - mid 200s for an all-goon node. Probably 225 or so. Usually the last 3 nodes would be up 300+ (I do remember in The Hunt that the Dark Avengers teams were all 311 the last day).

WelcomeDeath

MrTrix wrote:

I am actually quite happy with the scaling changes. I'm a fairly new player, my roster contains mainly 1* and a few 2* characters. But I have a couple of 3* characters (with 2-3 covers) and 1 4* character (1 cover). Before, those 3* and 4* characters used to determine my difficulty level, which meant I was hardly ever able to get very far in a PvE event, as it quickly got too difficult.
This time I was able to actually make it all the way to the end, though by the end, the fights did get considerably more challenging.

So yes, from what I've seen of it so far, this definitely is an improvement to what it used to be.

I agree your experience is probably better, but that's a result of your scaling being dastically broken all along due to roster in higher characters. I'm glad they fixed this issue for people like you. People are complaining more about the max levels of each mode. Used to be your roster would "graduate" past each node and it would become "trivial", max out at level 70, then 90, then 100 and so on. This was nice for vet players and a sign of progression. Now that's gone. No matter how high you develop your roster, the game will remain the same relative difficulty. So what's the point of leveling anymore?

froZy

a new system of no interest are not brought into play, but only sickens the game, and the constant passage of one and the same time a dozen missions. 8 through 8, the system has more flexibility. and now with such a large number of passes of the same without any awards for it - reduces the interest in the game. in the end it turns out that you need to play a lot more without getting any rewards for it. as a result it is not interesting.

Banjo

I think that part of the problem is that developers are a bit confused about the terms PvE & PvP.

None of the PvE events except the Gauntlet are actually PvE - as rewards are based on your performance against other players.

Just have progression rewards in PvE & be done with it. Then you can forget all about having to deal with "rubber banding". Just make every PvE event "complete x number of nodes to clear & receive x number of rewards". PvE really shouldn't be so complicated.

MaxxPowerz

Has there been any word as to whether or not they will be doing some tweaking or fine tuning as the event is running? I for one can not see myself sticking with this for a whole week in it's current condition, but I do applaud the developers for trying something new, as misguided as it may seem.

Aslo, if we could just get some more variety in the missions to break up the overall monotony of PVE. The occasional Gauntlet or Galactus event every couple of months just isn't doing it for me. And where has the Ultron event been? I had sit through that terrible movie, I feel like I deserve something from it.

Warbringa

Banjo wrote:

I think that part of the problem is that developers are a bit confused about the terms PvE & PvP.

None of the PvE events except the Gauntlet are actually PvE - as rewards are based on your performance against other players.

Just have progression rewards in PvE & be done with it. Then you can forget all about having to deal with "rubber banding". Just make every PvE event "complete x number of nodes to clear & receive x number of rewards". PvE really shouldn't be so complicated.

Agree 100%. Include the the current placement rewards into the progression rewards and extend the progression (but not unreasonably, for example don't change the 25 CP placment). Dump a generic 500 iso progression for a 3* cover. Add another 3* cover right before the CP reward. Add another 3* cover after the CP and the 4* cover at the very end of the progression, making it difficult to obtain but available. Add some CP, HP and ISO increase throughout the progression to roughly equal out what could be obtained through placement but backload toward the end of the progression so you still have to work to get it.

Marine8394

Sorry Devs, you missed on this one. I was going to wait until the end to give my opinion, but uh, I have time now. Maybe this has been mentioned, but one thing that to me is never considered is bracket balance. I usually shoot for t100, t50 if possible, anything better is suger on a cookie. But only 2.5 hours into yesterday's start and I saw it was mission impossible.

Checking the leader board I see once again I am bracketed with leviathans. I don't what they have. In fact I am grateful there are spenders like that. But I cannot give an accurate assessment about competition when there is none on my part. The controlled scaling still climbs beyond my roster. And competition against those who have all maxed five stars, plus maxed dupes, plus maxed 4*, championed. Well I am done at the line.

Mainly it still scales too far up. Before I could still achieve goals. Last EOST I finished 28th overall. Not even close to that again. For me the change is a crippler. Plus a top heavy bracket. I will play, but I vote against this change. If you keep the points, try only five point jumps or less I would try again. Oh yeah, and a guarantee that now roster is EVER locked with system, might change my mind.

firethorne

Banjo wrote:

None of the PvE events except the Gauntlet are actually PvE - as rewards are based on your performance against other players.

Also Growth Industry and Amadeus' Inferno. But, I agree that overall there is far too little of this kind of content.

I loved Growth Industry. Inferno was okay too. Not quite as good with that Galactus node and Cho being lackluster. But I'd love more like Growth Industry.

Cunneryn

Here are my overall thoughts about this test, separated in Pros and cons:

PROS:
- No need to schedule your life around MPQ since there is no 8h refresh for the first 6 go through (although this also lead to a con)
- More gradual scaling (although maybe the easy nodes could be easier (its still a test so the numbers can get tweaked))
- It allows for a more challenging experience (although maybe too much)

CONS:
- Competition is now impossible. I used to do 5 clears per day and was able to get into top50 most of the time. However, if i continue with this same system, everyone having done 5 clears will have the same amount of points and I'm not sure how placement is decided in those situation. how do you discrimnate the placement for everyone doing less than 7 clears (which I think is more than 75% of the players)
- A lot more time consuming if you want to get top placement rewards
- Scaling increases to fast and starts to high (at least for the "easy" nodes)
- Slices are now useless for most people considering you can play anytime anyway. Its only important for people grinding the nodes
- The rewards are not relevant regarding the difficulties of the nodes

On another notes, I'm not sure how scaling works. I'm playing usually with a friends that has a better roster than me (his 3 higher characters are higher than mine), but I'm still facing hegher level ennemies and the difficulty increases by more level than him. Regarding the previous achievements in earlier events, I skipped the hope simulator altogether whil he played to the 5 cp. And the event before that he had better placement despite me having way more points than him. So I'm not sure why my scaling is so atrocious

Banjo

firethorne wrote:

Banjo wrote:

None of the PvE events except the Gauntlet are actually PvE - as rewards are based on your performance against other players.

Also Growth Industry and Amadeus' Inferno. But, I agree that overall there is far too little of this kind of content.

I loved Growth Industry. Inferno was okay too. Not quite as good with that Galactus node and Cho being lackluster. But I'd love more like Growth Industry.

I knew there were a couple of others, but my mind went blank! Goes to show how few & far between they are.

If devs want people to be able to "play when they want" then they NEED to remove the placing rewards. How can I play when I want if I know I'm competing for rewards with other players? When I want to compete with other players I play PvP - THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR!!

Clyve

I'm generally ok with scaling eventually becoming too difficult to keep up with (though maybe the scaling growth rate needs to be toned down a bit), but it made me realize that it may be impossible to obtain the 1 CP reward for some of those nodes. If you have bad luck and end up having to beat the node 7 times to get it, you might end up being unable to do so which would be disappointing. Even if you are able to clear it with the help of boosts and health packs, you might feel you're wasting a lot of effort when you could be gaining more points by completing easier nodes. Almost makes me wonder if the amount of points you receive should scale with each node completion...

Druss

Just encountered another issue:

I have an hour to play.

Completely locked out of Prologue
PvP timings mean I don't wish to join yet or I end up endlessly shielding so cant play PvP.
I don't start shield Sim until last 4 days or so or get offered the usual maxed 4* teams for 17 points etc.
All my good 4*'s are dead & no-one else stands a chance in PvE

Absolutely locked out of all content

Surely this is not what was intended?

jobob

Banjo wrote:

firethorne wrote:

Banjo wrote:

None of the PvE events except the Gauntlet are actually PvE - as rewards are based on your performance against other players.

Also Growth Industry and Amadeus' Inferno. But, I agree that overall there is far too little of this kind of content.

I loved Growth Industry. Inferno was okay too. Not quite as good with that Galactus node and Cho being lackluster. But I'd love more like Growth Industry.

I knew there were a couple of others, but my mind went blank! Goes to show how few & far between they are.

If devs want people to be able to "play when they want" then they NEED to remove the placing rewards. How can I play when I want if I know I'm competing for rewards with other players? When I want to compete with other players I play PvP - THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR!!

Agreed... They should also give us the equivalent of a "dungeon delve" group PVE. Similar to Galactus or Ultron but replayable and available all the time, and lasts only for like 12 hours... You queue it up, and once 20 (or 40, or 10, or whatever) have queued, the battle starts and you have a set amount of time to whittle him down and everyone gets the rewards.