Official Balance Changes Feedback Thread [Provide Details]

Lukoil

aesthetocyst wrote:

Lukoil wrote:

They change how scaling works after max level. Boost work just as level gain (and nothing more).
The reason why Cmag was fine is because his power gain per level was not changed after the patch so boosting him (giving him +x levels) change nothing. Doom's abilities scaling on the other hand were changed making him weaker when boosted (every level is weaker and +x levels now is less then +x levels before).

"Changing ability scaling after max level" and "Power of boosted character (+ x levels)" are interconnected.

Right, unbuffed characters appear to be scaling properly, buffed characters do not, therefore buffs appear to be broken, thus, a bug.

Once again....they CHANGED scaling after max level. Changing the scaling will always change power of the boosted character (because boost is just +x levels on top).

If you change scaling from +3 damage per level to +2 damage per level this will make boosted character weaker (+50 levels will give you +100 damage instead of +150). We don't know how scaling was changed and on what characters.

They didn't chnage max level stats. They only change scaling AFTER max level. That why cmag was OK for you. He is still gaining power with level but less then before patch. If they didn't change the scaling your unbuffed championed cmag would do more damage then now right now.

P.S. For some reason I read in your post that CMag was buffed and you still dealing the same damage as before patch and i assumed they didn't change his scaling.

tanis3303

Monged4life wrote:

Jugg's headbutt didn't kill Cap with one hit on my run yesterday either, but I'm confused as to why that is a problem. The forum has been clamouring for his damage to be lowered at the higher levels. If this is a first step towards that I'm all for it.

Headbutt didn't kill Cap because Cap had 1117 hit points. Headbutt does the same 1,100 damage it has always done at level 40, but 2* Cap in this node has higher hit points. I don't know why, but that's what happened here.

D4Ni13

Orti wrote:

I expected a bigger advantage from championing and leveling characters with heavy damage abilities such as Magneto. Magneto blue at 166 (was?) 713 per tile swap, now i have him at 172 and his blue does 723 per tile swap. Whopping 70 healthpoints (1.4%) damage increase for 6 added covers. Quite a disappointment tbh.

I would appreciate an overview on the changes too.

100/6 = 16.67 and 16.67 * 70 = 1166.9. (but probably the rise is not flat, but exponential so it's more than that).

So having ~ 1200+ damage over the current damage ability is not enough for you? That's a 25% increase on damage. How much do you want?

Cartoon Face

Love the champion mechanic but i very much dislike the lack of ISO in the game before and after this update. There needs to be other ways to gain ISO. I understand that rewards from champions give prizes and ISO but in order to get that, you first need to max out said character. This is a task in its self.

Love the fact you get a leg token as the first reward for all champions, very nice feature and pretty generous!

CaptainFreaky

Monged4life wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

Snip

Huh? Juggs headbutt at lvl 40 still hits for 1100. I 1shot that 2* everyday, including yesterday and today.

Did someone upscale your DDQ when you weren't looking?

Jugg's headbutt didn't kill Cap with one hit on my run yesterday either, but I'm confused as to why that is a problem. The forum has been clamouring for his damage to be lowered at the higher levels. If this is a first step towards that I'm all for it.

Juggs damage at level 40 was NOT reduced. Cap's health at level 15 was increased. That's why he no longer fell after the headbutt yesterday. This is the impact of making characters "stronger at lower levels" (soft cappers rejoice).

To the OP - it's extremely clear that boosted character ability damage has been nerfed compared to before - at least for 2* and 3* I can verify this is the case (as have many others). It's clear that level 94 and level 166 characters (at the least) do LESS damage when boosted post R91/Champions then they did pre R91. And, since health for 4* was not really adjusted, this is a pretty major nerf.

Now, we got ZERO helpful communication of this other than a very vague statement about stats changing. What we NEED is for the developers of this game to tell us if that was their intent or if this is a bug - because frankly I've seen both stated but not convincingly. If intent, then I don't agree with it because it basically hurts 4* transitioners significantly, especially when you have just encouraged people to re-invest in 3* characters via championing. If bug, then fine, just let us know what will be corrected and (approximately) when.

Dayv

Basically every post in this thread that refers to boosted character changes is invalid due to the bug.

I'm not sure we can get valid feedback yet with so many players focusing on how boosted characters changed.

chamber44

i did notice in Divine Champions that Ares (boosted for me to 166) doesn't seem to be very strong. His Sunder is only 3129, which seems low. Again, if that's just me misremembering his damage, then feel free to ignore

Malcrof

Many of the posts in this thread have valid constructive points, but we need hard data. If someone would like to create a thread on their general opinions of the change, i would prefer to move posts to that. The other option is rafting them (poof, gone), which is not preferred.

JVReal

The problem I'm seeing is that they did so many different changes in one patch.

In anticipation of Champions, they tweaked stats of various character to increase differently up to their non-champion maxes... grow faster at the beginning, level out at the middle, then hit the same max stats as before up to non-champion max. Benefits soft-cappers, frustrates people midway through leveling because of decreased 'value' for the levels leading up to max (which happen to be the most expensive levels therefore should have more bang for your buck, just like 5th cover gives the big jump). Maxing at that point is only for the benefit of championing. My guess is that the growth curve at the higher end of the levels was reduced so that they just keep it in play for when Champion levels are added... the more levels added, the slower the growth of match damage.

In anticipation of Champions, they changed the way abilities scaled after non-champion max level because they were worried about how higher levels (due to championing) would then scale when boosted on top of the champion levels. They changed the growth rate of abilities (all or specific, we don't know but they do) so even a non-Champion max level character will do less damage boosted than before regardless of champion status. Unfortunately for both us and them, we did not have a chance to get accustomed to this reduced damage output prior to the implementation of Championing so we fail to see the benefits of Championing AFTER the base change in damage scaling from boosts for non-Championed max characters. ((In this respect they have the data, they must, so I am baffled on why they are asking us to tell them what they should already know... and we know that in previous posts they were very defensive that they do in fact have play testers... though what they are doing right now is questionable.))

They implemented Championing feature at the SAME TIME as the other major changes to the core of the game damage dealing system. Therefore, people are making incorrect assumptions that Championing made the damage output worse. False correlations.

People expect Championing to increase damage output when boosted compared to before boosted.
If you look at ability damage of a Championed character versus a non-champion character... the ability damage is increased. When boosted, and when not boosted. So in that aspect, yes the feature is working. But what people are unhappy about is the change in scaled damage, not in the Championing feature... except when they look at the change in scaled damage as a result of the anticipation of championing.

My recommendation is that they keep the scaling the same as before R91 changes through the boosted levels (50, and 100 levels above, correct?), then scale down the growth that occurs AFTER that level. So there is still growth, but not as much. You can program the scaling to be related to the type of boost applied to the character, similar to how you identify the boost by the colored gem above them. A 50 level boost could have same scaling as before R91, but the 100 level boost you could cap at 100 levels from old non-champion max, then scale slower afterwards. This would give the feel of a benefit to championing without the stigma that championing your characters weakened them.

The Champion feature is wonderful. Implementation of an aggressive attack on scaling damage above non-champion max level was not. Implementing them at the same time, disaster.

Malcrof

DrStrange-616 wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Many of the posts in this thread have valid constructive points, but we need hard data. If someone would like to create a thread on their general opinions of the change, i would prefer to move posts to that. The other option is rafting them (poof, gone), which is not preferred.

Why do you need hard data? The devs have all of the data, don't they? What's change and what hasn't isn't up for interpretation. It's simply numbers. Numbers that they already have. So what data do you want from us and why?

They want examples of what you like and don't.. use specific chars, and numbers if possible..

Doom's trap tiles are a good example.. the damage they used to do vs the damage they now do, dislike the change.. etc.. Chars who you would like changed back or one's that were changed for the better, give specific examples...

Here was one i posted:

Malcrof wrote:

LDaken, @ 173, has yet to even get +1 to his strike tiles. Do they scale at all?

Simple, straight forward, this character's strikes seem to not scale at all, which may be a bug, and something i think should be changed.

Malcrof

chamber44 wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

DrStrange-616 wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Many of the posts in this thread have valid constructive points, but we need hard data. If someone would like to create a thread on their general opinions of the change, i would prefer to move posts to that. The other option is rafting them (poof, gone), which is not preferred.

Why do you need hard data? The devs have all of the data, don't they? What's change and what hasn't isn't up for interpretation. It's simply numbers. Numbers that they already have. So what data do you want from us and why?

They want examples of what you like and don't.. use specific chars, and numbers if possible..

Doom's trap tiles are a good example.. the damage they used to do vs the damage they now do, dislike the change.. etc.. Chars who you would like changed back or one's that were changed for the better, give specific examples...

Here was one i posted:

Malcrof wrote:

LDaken, @ 173, has yet to even get +1 to his strike tiles. Do they scale at all?

Simple, straight forward, this character's strikes seem to not scale at all, which may be a bug, and something i think should be changed.

unless i'm missing something, why would any of us like any type of nerf at all? why would we want Doom (to continue your example) to do less?

Not all went down, in fact, Champion Psylocke is starting to do the type of damage she should have been doing all along, very positive change, the uppage in match damage to 4*s across the board, a common complaint , that 3*s shouldn't be tanking over 4*s, another very positive change, the power increase in match damage is more clear now at each * level.

Also, Champion She-Hulk has become a certified tank now, her health is increasing nicely, aoe damage could be upped some (it did not go down, and is scaling slowly ,but her tiles she steals are being strengthened more.

No hidden meanings here, just let us know which characters and abilities you have noticed changed in, and which are positive and which are negative. If you have exact numbers, please use them!

chamber44

Stax the Foyer wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Not all went down, in fact, Champion Psylocke is starting to do the type of damage she should have been doing all along, very positive change, the uppage in match damage to 4*s across the board, a common complaint , that 3*s shouldn't be tanking over 4*s, another very positive change, the power increase in match damage is more clear now at each * level.

Also, Champion She-Hulk has become a certified tank now, her health is increasing nicely, aoe damage could be upped some (it did not go down, and is scaling slowly ,but her tiles she steals are being strengthened more.

No hidden meanings here, just let us know which characters and abilities you have noticed changed in, and which are positive and which are negative. If you have exact numbers, please use them!

This post makes it sound like there was a balance pass done, where different characters within tiers were adjusted relative to one another. Was that the case? If so, I don't feel like that was communicated in any of the flurry of last-minute announcements about the patch.

Had that happened, some people may have been much more selective about who to champion.

right. Also, you've mentioned two toons that not too many people play with unless they're buffed. I know I haven't touched either since the update. I did sell a Psylocke cover because i hadn't planned on championing her until i had gotten my 4's up to level (read: never). Had I known she received a positive update, i might have bumped her up to 166.

GrumpySmurf1002

DrStrange-616 wrote:

Since I didn't have the PC stats memorized, I'd only be guessing and have to hunt stuff down. Why don't you provide me with the before and after stats, and I'll tell you which ones I like and which ones I don't. So much easier for everyone and they'll get commentary on all of the changes not just the ones we happen to piece together using our super duper forensic abilities.

So much this.

I couldn't tell you the ability damage numbers on all these characters at various levels. Nor would I particularly notice on someone like Nick Fury whose damage numbers on yellow aren't even in the game description. Is his yellow + green doing more now? Less? I'm not leveling him by one, playing a match, leveling by one, playing another match, etc...to figure out if he's scaling ok. Even if I were, I have no data to compare it to.

It does appear that a 166 2* does the same match damage as a 166 3*, which does the same as a 166 4*, which if it could scale that low, would probably be roughly 1/2 what a 166 5* would do. Balancing the bottom 3 tiers against themselves and leaving 5* at FU levels isn't good for balance.

CaptainFreaky

Here's my feedback based on evaluation of others rosters (who have added quite a few covers already to their champions):

For 3* (what I focused on): ability damage and match damage have flattened incredibly from level 166 to at least level 185. Basically we're talking about ability damage increases of <5% and also negligible/no increase in match damage. That means the only real benefit to Championing a 3* (for the first 16 covers) is the LT given out after the first extra cover and some incremental health for each cover (for a 10K health character like R&G or SHulk, in the range of 60-65 HP per cover). This needs to be balanced against the upfront ISO cost of activating Champion status for players to decide if it's worth it.

I think most of us believed that Champion match & ability damage would increase on a similar scale to what we were used to with boosted characters. It appears however that with R91/Champions that both ability and match damage scaling has been flattened quite a bit beyond 166 (at least for 3*).

With the "so-called" bug effecting boosted levels in play, further analysis is kind of asinine because we don't know the scope and nature of the so-called bug vs what the dev's intended.

Buret0

The IW 4* DDQ fight today was still a challenge at level 170 (ish), but thankfully boosted 3* ability damage was nerfed, so I could take two supersonics without dying. Thanks devs for making the hardest 4* DDQ a bit easier.

Marvelfamily

I'm fine with this, because the whole system is running on new levels now. There are not only the 2* who are getting stronger now, the hardcore player are leveling their 3* and 4* too. With our "old" damage scores everything would reach scores straight up to the moon, it's okay when everything is a little bit more balanced.

I love the new game mechanic!

Buret0

I can say that the significant match damage boost for championed 5*s is going to take them into an entirely different class with a very clear mandate being set: this game is pay to win, and win easily. This game was not built for match 4 damage to do more damage than the ability you save up the AP to use. Doing ~4,800 damage with a match four and doing ~18,000 damage with a crit match 4 at the higher match damages we see from some of the sandboxed accounts is stupid and makes me seriously wonder why you didn't listen to us when we told you 5*s were too powerful when they were launched... so you said, "let's make them much more powerful." Then you said, "let's make them easier to acquire for people who spend a lot of money," so you gave free LTs to people who bought 40 packs. Then you said, "the top spending alliances should be much more powerful in order to create arms races between them," so you gave huge command point bonuses to alliances who spent money.

Everything you have done in the last four months has completely upended your game.

You want balance change feedback? Stop making the game more unbalanced with every decision you make. Bring the 5*s closer to the 4*s so that there is a natural progression of power between 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5. A boosted 3* (was before the champion nerf) able to be used with a maxed 4* roster. A max boosted 4* is not even a close substitute to a halfway covered 5*. Then when you add a significant damage curve increase for champions (with all of the issues of making 5*s so much easier for paying customers to obtain), you have a broken system and a broken game.

Edit:

Sorry, I was a little light on the match damage. A maxed out champion OML would be doing between 18,480 and 35,344 damage on a crit match four black and between 5,968 and 10,184 damage on a regular match four black.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33359&start=80#p469886

xellessanova

I had a great post but the boards ate it; collecting this data requires that I click into alliances known to have "hardcore collectors", click into individual accounts, scroll through their 75+ roster looking for a particular character, record this data and then perform mathematical calculations.

So I'm not doing that again. You'll have to take my word for it or PROVIDE ACTUAL DATA AND DO THE MATH YOURSELF, DEVS.

1. Psylocke ability damage scales slightly below the percentage rate of Luke Cage and Iron Fist but her power curve may decrease with added covers (gain between 188 and 208 is less than between 166 and 188 than 2 levels would indicate). This is roughly between 9.3-9.6% for 42 levels gained.

208 Psylocke RK 1240 base, 247 Strike, 296 Attack
166 Psylocke RK 1131 base, 226 Strike, 270 Attack
9.6% increase base damage, 9.3% Strike increase, 9.63% Attack increase over 42 levels

2. Cage and Fist gain about 9.25-9.83% on their abilities for the same 42-level spread (Cage is 13.44% on Yellow over 55 levels which is about 9.73% over 42, Fist is 9.25% / 9.76% / 9.83% over 42)

224 Fist K (552 Attack)
166 Fist K (486 Attack) increase of 66 over 58 levels, 1.13 attack per level, 13.58% increase over 58 levels

3. Cage and Fist don't seem to lose their gainz over higher levels since their average gain per level is the same (and I found higher-leveled LC and IF than Psylocke).

What this means is that high-tier 3*s get better with more covers than low-tier 3*s because they start off doing more damage, scale slightly better with covers, and their rate of increase stays the same the more covers you add.

Pylgrim

DrStrange-616 wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

DrStrange-616 wrote:

Since I didn't have the PC stats memorized, I'd only be guessing and have to hunt stuff down. Why don't you provide me with the before and after stats, and I'll tell you which ones I like and which ones I don't. So much easier for everyone and they'll get commentary on all of the changes not just the ones we happen to piece together using our super duper forensic abilities.

So much this.

I couldn't tell you the ability damage numbers on all these characters at various levels. Nor would I particularly notice on someone like Nick Fury whose damage numbers on yellow aren't even in the game description. Is his yellow + green doing more now? Less? I'm not leveling him by one, playing a match, leveling by one, playing another match, etc...to figure out if he's scaling ok. Even if I were, I have no data to compare it to.

It does appear that a 166 2* does the same match damage as a 166 3*, which does the same as a 166 4*, which if it could scale that low, would probably be roughly 1/2 what a 166 5* would do. Balancing the bottom 3 tiers against themselves and leaving 5* at FU levels isn't good for balance.

Why was my post quoted above removed? It's a fair question and a much more logical way to go about getting feedback.

A post of mine was deleted too. Apparently mods are erasing all posts that point out how difficult is this guessing game for us when we have a extremely limited amount of data plus a very vague hint that there is a bug (so we cannot even know whether we are drawing correct conclusions or not). Here's what I said

Pylgrim wrote:

DayvBang wrote:

Basically every post in this thread that refers to boosted character changes is invalid due to the bug.

I'm not sure we can get valid feedback yet with so many players focusing on how boosted characters changed.

What?? Don't you understand that the problem is that we don't know the nature of the bug!? Boosted characters are the only indication we have right now about how characters may look when fully championed, as it will probably be months before someone gets one. Are boosted characters' values different from unboosted champions of similar levels? Is that the bug? We don't know and we have no way to guess whether it is a correct assumption. So, as asked, we are giving feedback on what we can see based on the appallingly sparse information we've received.

Anyway, in the hopes of mods sparing this post I will provide exactly what they're asking for: My 2* Black Widow has been championed to 112. From those 18 levels, her match damage has gone up by 9 and the additional damage per match with Espionage has gone up by 18. Do I like it? Er, sure, I guess, but hard to say whether I'll keep liking it at the later stages if that increase in values goes down or if 144 BW (or whomever) end not being nearly as powerful as the pre-R91 level 150. There, this is all the feedback I'm able to provide with what little I know. Helpful, uh?

The opening post says that suggestions are also permitted so here's one: Give us more information and you'll receive better, more focused feedback.

Warbringa

The reduction in abilities damage in many 3* characters is a side effect that I didn't anticipate. I thought championing was great until I realize now that many of my characters are no where near as good as they use to be as a player attempting to transition into 4* land. While I welcome the quick one time increase in LT tokens for championing maxed 3*, I have found the decrease in ability power (Dr. Doom purple especially) to be a huge loss as he is one of my go two purple users along with Blade and IF. I am concerned that now my transition to 4* land may be even longer as I run into plenty of 4* teams on PvP (who seemed to benefit from the changes). While I haven't compared numbers yet, 3* Thor seems less impressive after using him recently, was his ability damages significantly nerfed as well?