Update: Power Upgrades & Champions Launch

woopie

D4Ni13 wrote:

People who only pay-2-win are worst type of persons, because they ruin the game for everybody. Most of you complain about the gap (the big f*cking gap between the whales and the rest). Who do you think is responsible for that? free-2-play? No.. pay-2-win players! They are responsible for the gap.

The P2W and whales that you seem to hate so much are the ones that are keeping this game free for you to play. Older article, but the numbers don't change much - 60% of mobile revenues come from 0.23% of the player base.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/09/in-mo ... f-players/

Do you compete for top ranking in PvPs? If not, how do whales affect you in a negative way? Hell once you pass 1K in PvP, all you will see is Jeanbuster, Jeanclops, or a 5* team unless the boosted characters are really good. If anything, this cements and enlarges the power gap. Barring a game changing 4* or nerf to the top characters, I can cruise with my roster for the foreseeable future. If someone relatively new has the necessary covers, they could potentially whale 2 characters and be instantly competitive once they pump some ISO. Now? They can whale for a chance to get the covers they need, but likely get a bunch of **** they can't use.

puppychow

wymtime wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Instead of just delaying it can you explain it FULLY.

are you upping command points gained?

Do you realize how uncommon these are?

Do you realize that you've somehow made the value proposition go from "if I had a ton of extra money" to "HAHAHAHHHAHAHA NO."

100 bucks get 7 CP.

100 bucks used to buy roughly 7 4* covers IIRC.

You guys need to step up to plate with communication hardcore.

This is so on point. D3 needs much better communication on major changes like this. It is not just that they are changing the way people play the game but why they feel the currency should change. What is the reasoning behind it. Players will always disagree but many players will be a lot more accepting if they get an explanation of why you are changing they currency and what you are looking tovacomplish by the change. The communication of WHY is more important than the change itself. let the players know where you are trying to take the game and you will get more support than you are currently getting

Allow me to take a stab. This is purely speculation on my part here. As I keep saying, if you wanna figure out what the publisher is doing simply follow the money trail. First, I think we can partly blame the super whales, who obviously had no problem buying 5 covers at 720 cp a pop. That's the only reason why so many players have multiple max covered 5s already. RNG alone wouldn't allow you to have so many otherwise. So if the bean counters see that players are willing to shell out $$$ to indirectly buy 5 covers, wouldn't, by extension, they be willing to buy lower tiers as well?

Second is the issue of power creep. If players can easily max champ 4s to 370, it would devalue the value of 5 s. And once players have a ton of 370s, they won't need to bother spending money getting 5s. It's thorevine all over again, and I think the game dev is trying to avoid that.

Third, I would imagine that sales of cover packs have been lousy lately. After all, if you have unlocked a power already, it would be much cheaper to buy the cover directly than hope RNG will give you another one in a cover pack. So the switch from hp to cp to direct buy a cover would, eventually, force players to buy packs again, particularly for new character releases. It will become MUCH harder to max cover venoms and miles if you can't buy covers via hp anymore.

Again, this is purely speculation on my part. But I can see these as the reasons for the switch to cp as currency to buy powers directly.

PeterGibbons316

woopie wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

People who only pay-2-win are worst type of persons, because they ruin the game for everybody. Most of you complain about the gap (the big f*cking gap between the whales and the rest). Who do you think is responsible for that? free-2-play? No.. pay-2-win players! They are responsible for the gap.

The P2W and whales that you seem to hate so much are the ones that are keeping this game free for you to play. Older article, but the numbers don't change much - 60% of mobile revenues come from 0.23% of the player base.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/09/in-mo ... f-players/

Do you compete for top ranking in PvPs? If not, how do whales affect you in a negative way? Hell once you pass 1K in PvP, all you will see is Jeanbuster, Jeanclops, or a 5* team unless the boosted characters are really good. If anything, this cements and enlarges the power gap. Barring a game changing 4* or nerf to the top characters, I can cruise with my roster for the foreseeable future. If someone relatively new has the necessary covers, they could potentially whale 2 characters and be instantly competitive once they pump some ISO. Now? They can whale for a chance to get the covers they need, but likely get a bunch of **** they can't use.

Not only that, but the only reason he can even hit progression rewards in PvP is because the "pay-2-win" players are dropping cupcakes for everybody to boost their scores with. Seriously, if no one spent money on shields in PvP hardly anyone would ever have a shot at top progressions.

D4Ni13

woopie wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

People who only pay-2-win are worst type of persons, because they ruin the game for everybody. Most of you complain about the gap (the big f*cking gap between the whales and the rest). Who do you think is responsible for that? free-2-play? No.. pay-2-win players! They are responsible for the gap.

The P2W and whales that you seem to hate so much are the ones that are keeping this game free for you to play. Older article, but the numbers don't change much - 60% of mobile revenues come from 0.23% of the player base.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/09/in-mo ... f-players/

Do you compete for top ranking in PvPs? If not, how do whales affect you in a negative way?

1. I don't hate whales. I'm just saying that all this complains about the gap between players are the effect of paying-2-win. I don't really mind the gap or whales at all. When I was interested in an event I managed to win the first spot only with 3stars and an 8 hours shield. So, i'm good, no hate.
I was only replying to somebody that said I am a bad person because I don't care of others HP problems, but I care about a few hours delay. (a bit selfish, yes, but a bad person, not quite).

2. The whales are not the only source of money in a game like this. In fact all players that somehow influence the market, or the resources, or the in-game currency, produces real money. What I'm saying is that not only real money produce profit for the publisher, but also the in-game currency and resources that are being earned, spend or traded. That being said, even though I am not a big spender in this game, I am a tiny piece that helps the game economy, because I constantly produce resources and invest those resources in something else (and by resources I mean HP, ISO, CP, etc).

Phaserhawk

Just to quell the fan base.

There is no way they stop the purchase of covers directly, this is more of a monetary conversion then anything else.

Every single F2P game is based on micro transactions. $3 here, $5 there. Those make up more than what the whales fork out. 1000 people paying $3 is more than 20 Whales paying $100.

If they are testing the waters to find the optimal $ to purchase transaction, that's fine, but I can all but guarantee that the current system will be revamped. Take their most popular seller the $19.99 for 2900 HP but gets you 1 CP. That got you 1 4* cover or 2 3* covers. Well at the current price of 20CP for 3* and 120 for 4* it would take you $400 for 1 3* cover? Not likely. They would never do this, unless they want to end the game. All they would do is stop Micro transactions which would sink the game.

What we are seeing her is an economy shift. Many F2P games have multiple forms of currency. Usually a free one that comes with playing, then the rarer one you have to usually buy or play a long time to get. What they are doing is simple. HP is becoming the more common one while CP will be the rarer one you usually have to buy. What I'm seeing is a separation of what is required in game (shielding, roster slots) and power or cover purchasing (more the pay to win side).

Again, this is all conjecture but as I see it, ISO, that's just it's own thing, take that out. I'm seeing D3 moving HP to the normal daily transaction type income and CP being the premium content. Yes if you get short on HP you would have to buy, but my gut is telling me that if HP is going to become more freely distributed, I'm looking at this as a fix for roster slots and shielding costs.

My final thoughts. HP is now for daily stuff, shielding, tokens, roster slots. CP is now for cover purchases. The 2 have been separated. Now the smart and devious part is that with 2 types of incomes you just increased the number of micro transactions without causing too much problem. "oh, I need 1250 HP for my 3*, but need another 1000 HP for roster slot. Purchase 2900 HP for 19.99" Now it will be "oh I need 20 cp for my 3*, but need 1000 HP for roster slot. Purchase 2900 HP for $20, purchase 50 CP for $20" You just spent $40 and got technically the same amount of product per $ you just had to buy it in bulk separately

D4Ni13

Phaserhawk wrote:

Just to quell the fan base.

There is no way they stop the purchase of covers directly, this is more of a monetary conversion then anything else.

Every single F2P game is based on micro transactions. $3 here, $5 there. Those make up more than what the whales fork out. 1000 people paying $3 is more than 20 Whales paying $100.

If they are testing the waters to find the optimal $ to purchase transaction, that's fine, but I can all but guarantee that the current system will be revamped. Take their most popular seller the $19.99 for 2900 HP but gets you 1 CP. That got you 1 4* cover or 2 3* covers. Well at the current price of 20CP for 3* and 120 for 4* it would take you $400 for 1 3* cover? Not likely. They would never do this, unless they want to end the game. All they would do is stop Micro transactions which would sink the game.

What we are seeing her is an economy shift. Many F2P games have multiple forms of currency. Usually a free one that comes with playing, then the rarer one you have to usually buy or play a long time to get. What they are doing is simple. HP is becoming the more common one while CP will be the rarer one you usually have to buy. What I'm seeing is a separation of what is required in game (shielding, roster slots) and power or cover purchasing (more the pay to win side).

Again, this is all conjecture but as I see it, ISO, that's just it's own thing, take that out. I'm seeing D3 moving HP to the normal daily transaction type income and CP being the premium content. Yes if you get short on HP you would have to buy, but my gut is telling me that if HP is going to become more freely distributed, I'm looking at this as a fix for roster slots and shielding costs.

My final thoughts. HP is now for daily stuff, shielding, tokens, roster slots. CP is now for cover purchases. The 2 have been separated. Now the smart and devious part is that with 2 types of incomes you just increased the number of micro transactions without causing too much problem. "oh, I need 1250 HP for my 3*, but need another 1000 HP for roster slot. Purchase 2900 HP for 19.99" Now it will be "oh I need 20 cp for my 3*, but need 1000 HP for roster slot. Purchase 2900 HP for $20, purchase 50 CP for $20" You just spent $40 and got technically the same amount of product per $ you just had to buy it in bulk separately

Finally, someone who understands how a micro-transaction game works.

woopie

D4Ni13 wrote:

woopie wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

People who only pay-2-win are worst type of persons, because they ruin the game for everybody. Most of you complain about the gap (the big f*cking gap between the whales and the rest). Who do you think is responsible for that? free-2-play? No.. pay-2-win players! They are responsible for the gap.

The P2W and whales that you seem to hate so much are the ones that are keeping this game free for you to play. Older article, but the numbers don't change much - 60% of mobile revenues come from 0.23% of the player base.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/09/in-mo ... f-players/

Do you compete for top ranking in PvPs? If not, how do whales affect you in a negative way?

1. I don't hate whales. I'm just saying that all this complains about the gap between players are the effect of paying-2-win. I don't really mind the gap or whales at all. When I was interested in an event I managed to win the first spot only with 3stars and an 8 hours shield. So, i'm good, no hate.
I was only replying to somebody that said I am a bad person because I don't care of others HP problems, but I care about a few hours delay. (a bit selfish, yes, but a bad person, not quite).

2. The whales are not the only source of money in a game like this. In fact all players that somehow influence the market, or the resources, or the in-game currency, produces real money. What I'm saying is that not only real money produce profit for the publisher, but also the in-game currency and resources that are being earned, spend or traded. That being said, even though I am not a big spender in this game, I am a tiny piece that helps the game economy, because I constantly produce resources and invest those resources in something else (and by resources I mean HP, ISO, CP, etc).

1) Fair enough, but the fact that you were able to get 1st with 3 stars and a single shield either means a last minute join in a fresh bracket, or you're still in the noob brackets. Calling someone a bad person for the way they choose to play their game is just dumb whether they're F2P or P2W.

2) Of course whales aren't the only source of money in the game, but they're definitely the primary source of money for the game. The whales that have emerged since the introduction of CP aren't spending $100 a month, they are spending $200-$1,000 depending on the buyers club they join. So that means a single buyer's club can provide $4,000 to $20,000 for D3. It's going to take a lot of tiny transactions to make up for that.

D4Ni13

woopie wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

woopie wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

People who only pay-2-win are worst type of persons, because they ruin the game for everybody. Most of you complain about the gap (the big f*cking gap between the whales and the rest). Who do you think is responsible for that? free-2-play? No.. pay-2-win players! They are responsible for the gap.

The P2W and whales that you seem to hate so much are the ones that are keeping this game free for you to play. Older article, but the numbers don't change much - 60% of mobile revenues come from 0.23% of the player base.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/04/09/in-mo ... f-players/

Do you compete for top ranking in PvPs? If not, how do whales affect you in a negative way?

1. I don't hate whales. I'm just saying that all this complains about the gap between players are the effect of paying-2-win. I don't really mind the gap or whales at all. When I was interested in an event I managed to win the first spot only with 3stars and an 8 hours shield. So, i'm good, no hate.
I was only replying to somebody that said I am a bad person because I don't care of others HP problems, but I care about a few hours delay. (a bit selfish, yes, but a bad person, not quite).

2. The whales are not the only source of money in a game like this. In fact all players that somehow influence the market, or the resources, or the in-game currency, produces real money. What I'm saying is that not only real money produce profit for the publisher, but also the in-game currency and resources that are being earned, spend or traded. That being said, even though I am not a big spender in this game, I am a tiny piece that helps the game economy, because I constantly produce resources and invest those resources in something else (and by resources I mean HP, ISO, CP, etc).

1) Fair enough, but the fact that you were able to get 1st with 3 stars and a single shield either means a last minute join in a fresh bracket, or you're still in the noob brackets. Calling someone a bad person for the way they choose to play their game is just dumb whether they're F2P or P2W.

2) Of course whales aren't the only source of money in the game, but they're definitely the primary source of money for the game. The whales that have emerged since the introduction of CP aren't spending $100 a month, they are spending $200-$1,000 depending on the buyers club they join. So that means a single buyer's club can provide $4,000 to $20,000 for D3. It's going to take a lot of tiny transactions to make up for that.

Your right. But the game needs both parties. The game needs a bunch of whales, so they can make a standard, an maximum objective that other players tend to push to.
And in the same manner needs the other players to sustain the in game economy. Whales don't really support the game economy, because they tend to get the easy way to obtaining something, meaning they won't produce resources necessary for the economy to stay as intended. Everybody has his role.
And the latest updates are intended to bring those 2 parties closer. And like somebody said earlier, it is a monetary change.

woopie

Quote snip

D4Ni13 wrote:

Your right. But the game needs both parties. The game needs a bunch of whales, so they can make a standard, an maximum objective that other players tend to push to.
And in the same manner needs the other players to sustain the in game economy. Whales don't really support the game economy, because they tend to get the easy way to obtaining something, meaning they won't produce resources necessary for the economy to stay as intended. Everybody has his role.
And the latest updates are intended to bring those 2 parties closer. And like somebody said earlier, it is a monetary change.

When you say 'in game economy' are you still referring to ISO, HP, CP? If so, the whales are the ones generating MOST of the in game resources. Whales don't just max characters and sit on the sidelines. The whales and the hard core players are the ones generating all of the points in PvP so you and I can find 75 point targets throughout our climb and get the higher tier progression awards. In exchange they take the higher placement rewards, but PvP placement rewards are grossly out of date anyway.

This change only helps F2P players when it comes to new releases. For existing characters, you better hope RNGsus really likes you because you can no longer guarantee that your 11 or 12 cover HB will get the covers he needs to be useful. Instead you have to buy tokens and hope that they give you what you need. This makes the entire end game luck based which makes progression a joke

GrumpySmurf1002

Phaserhawk wrote:

Now it will be "oh I need 20 cp for my 3*, but need 1000 HP for roster slot. Purchase 2900 HP for $20, purchase 50 CP for $20" You just spent $40 and got technically the same amount of product per $ you just had to buy it in bulk separately

The reason why I don't think this is quite the direction they're headed is because they specifically said they didn't want people whaling 5*, which was followed by "oops, but well more power to them if they want to spend $20k to do so"

Something like 50CP for $20 would reduce whaling a 5* down to $2880. 25 for $20 obviously double that, and whatever the equivalent stark (say 300CP for $100) would reduce it down to $2400. For the tier below "I have stupid amounts of money and don't care," that becomes a more manageable number. Even more so for that group that's already sitting at 6-8 covers already and can now target purchase the last few.

With 5* so out of balance, this would be a devastating edition for current game state, and likely future state as well.

PeterGibbons316

woopie wrote:

Quote snip

D4Ni13 wrote:

Your right. But the game needs both parties. The game needs a bunch of whales, so they can make a standard, an maximum objective that other players tend to push to.
And in the same manner needs the other players to sustain the in game economy. Whales don't really support the game economy, because they tend to get the easy way to obtaining something, meaning they won't produce resources necessary for the economy to stay as intended. Everybody has his role.
And the latest updates are intended to bring those 2 parties closer. And like somebody said earlier, it is a monetary change.

When you say 'in game economy' are you still referring to ISO, HP, CP? If so, the whales are the ones generating MOST of the in game resources. Whales don't just max characters and sit on the sidelines. The whales and the hard core players are the ones generating all of the points in PvP so you and I can find 75 point targets throughout our climb and get the higher tier progression awards. In exchange they take the higher placement rewards, but PvP placement rewards are grossly out of date anyway.

This change only helps F2P players when it comes to new releases. For existing characters, you better hope RNGsus really likes you because you can no longer guarantee that your 11 or 12 cover HB will get the covers he needs to be useful. Instead you have to buy tokens and hope that they give you what you need. This makes the entire end game luck based which makes progression a joke

I agree. There is very little "in game economy" because none of the in game resources get traded. Everything is acquired and given back to D3. The only thing that really gets traded are the points. and these are only generated in excess when people shield. Most F2P players earn their rewards and their HP and they spend it on roster slots and themselves. The people buying the most shields are the whales.

Quebbster

puppychow wrote:

First, I think we can partly blame the super whales, who obviously had no problem buying 5 covers at 720 cp a pop. That's the only reason why so many players have multiple max covered 5s already. RNG alone wouldn't allow you to have so many otherwise.

Sure it would. 720 CP gets you 29 legendary tokens, and statistically speaking you should get around 3 five-star covers from those tokens. So when you are still building your five-star roster, it's definitely more worthwhile to just get as many legendary tokens as you can. As usual, it's best to outright buy just the last cover(s) you need to get the build you want instead of relying on random luck.

Mercurywolf

puppychow wrote:

First, I think we can partly blame the super whales, who obviously had no problem buying 5 covers at 720 cp a pop. That's the only reason why so many players have multiple max covered 5s already. RNG alone wouldn't allow you to have so many otherwise.

Don't forget there was also that exploit from not-too long ago that pretty much let people re-roll the tokens if you knew how to do it, which countered the effects of RNG.

JVReal

Jonah 1 (NIV)

1 The word of the [Devs] came to [the Forumite] son of [D3go.com]: 2 “Go to the great [game] of [MPQ] and [play] against it, because its [Meta] has come up before me.”

3 But [the Forumite] ran away from the [Devs] and headed for [D3go.com]. He went down to [General Discussion], where he found a [thread] bound for [incoming changes]. After [reading] the [thread], he went [away] and [opened up Line] to flee from the [Devs].

4 Then the [Forumites] sent a great wind on the [forums], and such a violent storm arose that the [forums] threatened to break up. 5 All the [players] were afraid and each cried out to his own god. And they threw [their HP] into the [game] to lighten the [blow].

But [the Forumite] had gone [home], where he lay down and fell into a deep sleep. 6 The [Alliance mates] [PM'd] to him and said, “How can you sleep? Get up and call on your [Devs]! Maybe [they] will take notice of us so that we will not [suffer].”

7 Then the [players] said to each other, “Come, let us cast lots to find out who is responsible for this calamity.” They cast lots and the lot fell on [the developers]. 8 So they asked [them], “Tell us, who is responsible for making all this trouble for us? What kind of work do you do? Where do you come from? What is your [logic]? From what [reality] are you?”

9 [They] answered, “I am a [Redname] and I worship the [Devs], the God of [Puzzles], who made the [game] and the [meta].”

10 This terrified them and they asked, “What have you done?” (They knew he was [working for] the [Devs], because he had already told them so.)

11 The [forum] was getting rougher and rougher. So [the rednames] asked [each other], “What should we do to make the [forums] calm down for us?”

12 “Pick [a new date] and throw [it] into the [forums],” [they] replied, “and it will become calm. [We] know that it is [our] fault that this great storm has come upon [us].”

13 Instead, the [rednames did] their best to [ignore the forum]. But they could not, for the [forums] grew even wilder than before. 14 Then they cried out to the [Devs], “Please, [Devs], do not let us [suffer] for [making] this [big change]. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent [game], for you, [Devs], have done as you pleased.” 15 Then they took [a date (Jan 13)] and threw [it into the forum], and the raging [forum] grew calm.

16 At this the [players] greatly feared the [Devs], and they offered a [thanks] to the [Devs] and made vows to [them].

t4ng

Personally, as a player who doesn’t buy specific covers, I don’t care too much whether they charge hp or cp for covers. I think only time will tell whether the hp/cp change will have a positive or negative impact on the in-game economy and overall user experience.

Regardless of what your personal stance on this change is though, you should care about the way d3 planned to go about implementing this change because it is grossly dishonest and dangerously close to being fraud.

Imagine going to a big box store and buying gift certificates. At purchase, you’re informed that the gift certificates can be applied to anything in store. You go back at a later date to use your gift certificates, only to find that they’ve changed their minds and your gift certificates can only be used in the automotive department. Well what if I didn’t want anything from the automotive department??

The ~24 hours notice they initially gave players is not sufficient, and let’s not forget that no in-game announcement was ever made. So any player who isn’t a forum user still, presumably, knows nothing about this intended change. Assuming the forum hadn’t called fouled yesterday, the feature would have gone live today, and those players wouldn’t have found out until it was too late.

Crowl

Phaserhawk wrote:

Every single F2P game is based on micro transactions. $3 here, $5 there. Those make up more than what the whales fork out. 1000 people paying $3 is more than 20 Whales paying $100.

Actually, any numbers known for f2p games do not back up your claim at all, it is the whales that cover far more of the costs with figures ranging from 60-90% of total revenue coming from them.

CrookedKnight

I really think they're expecting people to start buying tokens en masse thanks to the Champion system. As of this evening EST, vets can use 2* covers again. I don't even have the whole set of 2* characters in my roster and I won't be back to selling every silver-backed cover I get until I've collected 400 of the things for use on my champion characters. 3* covers will take many many more than that. That makes heroic/event tokens a way better value for me than ever before.

evil panda

Gonna reiterate my request (and join the chorus here) for a more comprehensive discussion of where you are going with this. You guys aren't going to just give up the revenue stream from cover sales without trying to capture it somewhere else. So where is the game going?

woopie

Only thing that I can see is that they're hoping people buy more packs because they (D3) loves randomness. Get more covers and champion more characters!

JVReal

They should give CP when you buy a roster slot.