Important Announcement: Legendary Tokens Exploit

puppychow

Pinko McFly wrote:

I am a bit skeptical that they actually have a way to detect this unless they can actually distinquish forced closes from crashes. Using the logic fed to us in the past, players can argue a string of good luck.
Maybe the rng on every client runs off the same seed and they can check the current rng value in the client vs the number of tokens used.

You raise a good point. Last nite, my game LITERALLY crashed after every match for some reason, for like 4 matches in a row. Hopefully D3 won't think I'm cheating and sandbox me.

Moon Roach

Dauthi wrote:

DrLemniscate wrote:

The player in question from that screenshot is just taking a break. Their alliance is hardcore, so was kicked until they return. This has been confirmed by other alliance members.

Really? Yeah, I guess it was a coincidence right when they crack down on the exploit. After spending 20k dollars on 5*s I would quit for awhile too.

If a player was kicked from an alliance, his individual points on the players leader board would still be visible. I believe sandboxed players don't appear on the leader boards.

smkspy

Personally way more pissed at devs for allowing this to happen for 2 years and not care enough to change it. I really do not blame people that used this exploit. Video gaming is all about using exploits, and if for two years this exploit has been around, then it's not an exploit. It is a feature of the game same as the chances of pulling 20 iso.

Polares

Pinko McFly wrote:

I am a bit skeptical that they actually have a way to detect this unless they can actually distinquish forced closes from crashes. Using the logic fed to us in the past, players can argue a string of good luck.
Maybe the rng on every client runs off the same seed and they can check the current rng value in the client vs the number of tokens used.

Yeah, I don't think they can really know that something has happened, all the 'cheating' is done in the client side, so it is very hard to know. And closing the app a lot doesnt mean you are a cheater (the SO closes the app a lot too when in the background, at least on ios).

The only way they have to know if something has happened is check the % of pulling 5, 4 and 3 for every user and if they are way off then they can suspect something has happened. I guess with 5s it is easier because you can just obtain them with legendaries, and if someone has a 80% or more rate of pulling 5s, that person is a cheater almost for sure. BUT if that person has been clever and he has maintained his ratio under 30% or something like that, devs dont have any way of knowing if he has been extremely lucky or he has cheated, and he would still be way ahead of the competition.

The only way of fixing this is opening the tokens in the server, then the exploit would be closed forever.

wuweird

Flare808 wrote:

Would this exploit have a negative effect on everyone else's draws?

That would require a level of server-side coordination that I've never seen from MPQ. If the token RNG was happening server-side, this exploit wouldn't be possible.

Pinko_McFly

Polares wrote:

The only way of fixing this is opening the tokens in the server, then the exploit would be closed forever.

Or feed you twenty rng values at a time (similar to PvP matches). If the client requests another 20 values and is reporting only 2 tokens opened. Red flag.

You're welcome Demiurge, ill send u a list of 4*s I'd like as payment.

wuweird

snlf25 wrote:

So if it's extremely easy to tell who cheated then the converse is also true.

Given their apparent inability in the past to tell who have and haven't been impacted by event bugs, leading to "tokens for everyone, it's the only fair way!" results, I wouldn't hold my breath that they can do any kind of accurate detection of who has been naughty or nice.

Remember, this is a game that doesn't even do any centralised account storage of your roster, requiring you link to a 3rd party service for that basic functionality. At best they have a heap of logs they can sift through, which not only requires 100% accuracy on logging (again, not likely given how often issues like scores & tokens not registering come up), but thorough data-mining of a sort they've never been able to accomplish before.

Unknown

Unfortunately it is normal for online games take place these types of things. Poor competitors need to fraudulent methods to compete equally with others. This is one reason why not spend money on online games. I wonder who played honestly more than two years and spent a lot of money in the game. Unfortunate it! If it were me I would feel harmed as a consumer and not spend more money in the game. I hope to have this fixed as soon as possible by banning corrupt the game. This could ease the situation of consumers involved and the loss of credibility of the game.

Dauthi

lukewin wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I blew the whistle right before this, glad to see it helped, even if I got a warning from it. Hacks/exploits running amok will ruin a game, and putting the dirty laundry out in the open puts the spotlight on the problem forcing action.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36126&p=450758#p450758

I would chalk this up to coincidence. Accusing someone of being a cheater (like you did) is one thing, someone posting and bringing attention to the exploit that was likely used to gain 5* from Legendary Tokens (like the OP of the deleted thread) is another thing. So I wouldn't go patting myself on the back just yet. Oh, I guess it's too late for that.

I guess it was a coincidence that anonymous poster continued to push my point right after me?

D3 was acting before this announcement, too. I claimed there was rampant hacks, as it should have been obvious there couldn't be that many people with 5*s running around. A week or so later D3 announces their is a rampant exploit going around and they are cracking down. Hmm.

Dauthi wrote:

Vindicated doesn't even cover it. I was ridiculed, warned, and and everyone who pushed against me upvoted, and I was absolutely right. Some even PMed me talking about how they believed these guys were legit. Practicality and reason went right out the window, for whatever reason.

Don't worry, I am positive there is no rule about linking locked threads. Then again, I didn't know that I would get tossed warning for addressing a serious and obvious issue. I quote Fight4thedream in my PM why I was warned: "You were given a warning for posting a thread making baseless accusations of rampant hacking." I'm not in the loop, I don't know that me accidentally leaving the last piece of their alliance was that bad, but I do know the average player couldn't get anything from it. It's impossible by searching the term in game.

But, you may have a point, sir.

What OJSP was trying to tell you was to alter your original post/picture in the locked thread, since that's one of the reasons it got locked in the first place. Your thread got also locked for another reason, because there is a process for reporting cheaters. You thought it better to go another route and the mods decided to go with the established process.

No, I was told that I was being warned for exactly what I posted, "rampant hacking claims."

Did anyone actually PM you or did they just respond to your initial PMs, like I did, after your thread got locked? You still believe that you're absolutely right, but that's a baseless claim as well, since there's no proof of it. In your locked thread, you offer no proof / a base for your claim, that the player was cheating/hacking.

The proof was there, you just ignored it, and I feel like you may be a little salty about that. Take it from Phaserhawk:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Wow, is all I can say. You know I had wondered the other day how so many top alliance members had multiple OML's, SS' maxed. It blew my mind. If if one opened 100 LT's that would only amount to 10 5* covers. I knew something was a miss, I had reported a few players to D3 cheating because I couldn't figure out how I was possible. My final straw was when I saw a player with a maxed Ghost Rider on day 2. Day 2!!! Slice one wasn't done, there was no possible way to do this unless one won the luck lottery or dropped about $10,000. Since neither of those seemed possible I knew there was something else I just didn't know what until now.

It was obvious to those who chose to see it for what it was.

Calling out the mod by name, probably isn't good form either, and you've done that as well. Italicizing accidentally in your post, alludes to it being intentional. The average player couldn't get anything from it, but the average player doesn't read the forums. The average forum reader, probably could put together the clues you accidentally left.

Calling out the mod by name? He said he was warning me in the thread. I italicized it to put emphasis that it was an accident, and that is why I was not being warned for it. Whether the average forum reader could figure it out is debatable too, because everyone in my alliance didn't know.

fight4thedream wrote:

Dauthi,

I understand why you feel upset but I am going to ask you to try not to make this a personal matter. Yes, it appears your hunch was correct but as stated previously the post you made in regards to your suspicion was inappropriate.

The reason we frown on hacking posts in general is because they breed suspicion and false accusations amongst the community which is frankly not in a position to pass judgement on the issue. Those of you that have been on the forum long enough will remember there was a time when one of the top alliances in the game was often the target of such claims until finally one of its members publicly revealed that yes, they happen to spend a significant amount of money on the game.

With that said, ConcernedCitizen took an acceptable route to shining light on the issue. They made their post in the bugs and technical issues forum since that's basically what the problem is about. They also avoided mentioning any player or alliance names in their post. The thread was removed because it outlined the process in which one could use the exploit which I believe is reasonable but ConcernedCitizen will not be warned or punished, and I feel if anything they should be commended for coming forward with legitimate information that affects the game.

But please be aware, if you do make such posts that outline exploits they will be removed and if it is determined that you posted such information with less than honorable intentions, you will be banned. This is not to discourage people with genuine concern for the game's integrity from providing information on exploits, by all means do so, but just be clear with your intentions for providing such information and know that if you do choose to post it on the forum it won't remain there for long but will be seen by the people who should know about it, the developers.

It's no problem, i'm just happy that something was finally done.

I admit that I took an agressive route, but it certainly does feel effective. A lot of folks were reporting these guys and nothing was getting done. I hope that my effort spurred ConcernedCitizen to take up my mantle and keep the spotlight on the issue forcing a change for the better. My thanks to them as well

lukewin

Dauthi wrote:

I guess it was a coincidence that anonymous poster continued to push my point right after me?

They were acting before this announcement, too. I claimed there was rampant hacks, as it should have been obvious there couldn't be that many people with 5*s running around. A week or so later D3 announces their is a rampant exploit going around and they are cracking down. Hmm.

Probably the last post of yours I'll reply to, so enjoy it. Yes, I will believe it was a coincidence. Because the anonymous poster didn't push your point at all. If they would've pushed your point, they would've just kept claiming people were cheating, but giving no reason other than I can't figure out how, but they are, so it has to be real. The anonymous poster outlined a method that was likely used and gave D3 Go! and Demiurge cause to investigate.

The more believable timeline, is that on Thursday, at 7:04 PM EST, the poster made their post. When it became public knowledge, and D3 Go! and Demiurge had to act. On Friday, at 2:40 PM EST, D3 Go! makes their official announcement.

If you want to believe that your mantle was picked up, that's up to you, but unlike you, with most things MPQ, I don't expect people to believe what I believe and I don't have a problem if they believe something else. If you want to say you don't expect anything, then I'll leave this quote from you below, since it kinda proves my point. link goes to post

Dauthi wrote:

No responses or upvotes to my well written response? Everyone just walks away and ignores I said anything? I feel like the red headed step child on the forums. *sigh*

Cypr3ss

Dauthi wrote:

I hope that my effort spurred ConcernedCitizen to take up my mantle and keep the spotlight on the issue forcing a change for the better.

I'm certain it didn't, as there was no mention of you, your post, or anyone that you've mentioned in his OP, but you go on and keep patting yourself on the back for an imagined job well done.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

Dauthi

lukewin wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I guess it was a coincidence that anonymous poster continued to push my point right after me?

They were acting before this announcement, too. I claimed there was rampant hacks, as it should have been obvious there couldn't be that many people with 5*s running around. A week or so later D3 announces their is a rampant exploit going around and they are cracking down. Hmm.

Probably the last post of yours I'll reply to, so enjoy it. Yes, I will believe it was a coincidence. Because the anonymous poster didn't push your point at all. If they would've pushed your point, they would've just kept claiming people were cheating, but giving no reason other than I can't figure out how, but they are, so it has to be real. The anonymous poster outlined a method that was likely used and gave D3 Go! and Demiurge cause to investigate.

I would have done the same if I knew the exact details (should have been obvious since I assumed it was a hack), however me nor anyone I knew used this or knew about it. I did what I could (including messages to Ice and David).

If you want to believe that your mantle was picked up, that's up to you, but unlike you, with most things MPQ, I don't expect people to believe what I believe and I don't have a problem if they believe something else. If you want to say you don't expect anything, then I'll leave this quote from you below, since it kinda proves my point. link goes to post

Dauthi wrote:

No responses or upvotes to my well written response? Everyone just walks away and ignores I said anything? I feel like the red headed step child on the forums. *sigh*

A personal attack is a little unlike you. I will respond to defend my person though.

It was a joke in a discussion about Jean. Instead of continuing the discussion after I made my point, everyone left it instead

Cypr3ss wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I hope that my effort spurred ConcernedCitizen to take up my mantle and keep the spotlight on the issue forcing a change for the better.

I'm certain it didn't, as there was no mention of you, your post, or anyone that you've mentioned in his OP, but you go on and keep patting yourself on the back for an imagined job well done.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

I would be surprised if they mentioned me even if I had anything to do with their decision. Regardless we had the same intentions and I do hope that I had something to do with their decision.

You have crushed that hope with your comment now though, as intended. I am going to go cry now.

Unknown

Cool story, bro.

fight4thedream

Please keep this thread on topic. I ask that you cease any further discussion of the matter regarding Dauthi. I do believe enough information is readily available for people to draw their own conclusions and any further discussion is doomed to devolve into personal attacks. There are much more important issues regarding the exploit; let's focus on them please.

Hanzo0313

It's really unfair. I am losing the battle because the developer's coding bugs?

So how does the bug work? I want to give a try before D3 restore everybody to some restore point! lol

dudethtsawesome

So is this how certain players have fully covered 5*s and 4*s just after release?

Dauthi

Polares wrote:

Yeah, I don't think they can really know that something has happened, all the 'cheating' is done in the client side, so it is very hard to know. And closing the app a lot doesnt mean you are a cheater (the SO closes the app a lot too when in the background, at least on ios).

The only way they have to know if something has happened is check the % of pulling 5, 4 and 3 for every user and if they are way off then they can suspect something has happened. I guess with 5s it is easier because you can just obtain them with legendaries, and if someone has a 80% or more rate of pulling 5s, that person is a cheater almost for sure. BUT if that person has been clever and he has maintained his ratio under 30% or something like that, devs dont have any way of knowing if he has been extremely lucky or he has cheated, and he would still be way ahead of the competition.

The only way of fixing this is opening the tokens in the server, then the exploit would be closed forever.

I feel like we are all at an impasse. We want/need to know that D3 is actually handling this or bluffing/setting examples. If they are not bluffing, explaining their methods would harm the process however. This forces into not knowing, and hoping for the best.

Notamutant and I discussed it a bit, and they likely have stats on 5*s pulled across the player base, but do they have individual records too? It's possible, if so then like Polares says they simply look at the % of 5*s pulled on the account. I also think it depends on how many tokens they have opened. If they have opened a lot, then they should be really close to 10%, and something like a 15-20% ratio would be extremely unlikely (depending on the sample size). On the other hand it is entirely possible for someone who has only opened a small amount to reach high percentages.

It's hard to keep playing a game when you know you are at an unfair disadvantage. Some word from D3 on anything would be great, because I am worried the game might be done at this point, but they obviously wouldn't tell us anything bad.

STOPTHIS

Man, the further I got into this thread the more upset I became.

Started off being a mix of slightly amused and mildly annoyed at cheaters exploiting a system. It sucks, but not something I would post over. But then come to realize this has been a problem, one people have discussed, since before I even started playing and I'm on day 415. And it was only when an outline on how to do it was posted that it was addressed. The ****?

I was feeling pretty good about my roster recently too. I've got every 3*, most covered well, and all but 2 4*s. Now I find out this whole time that I've been at the mercy of RNG on multiple levels, others just rerolled their way to a better roster? I'm actively pissed. Banning people doesn't even begin to fix this.

It also kind of throws a cloud over the whole game. I used to just assume anyone with a good roster worked or payed for it, but now I'm going to be wondering how many people cheated to get there.

puppychow

Dauthi wrote:

It's hard to keep playing a game when you know you are at an unfair disadvantage. Some word from D3 on anything would be great, because I am worried the game might be done at this point, but they obviously wouldn't tell us anything bad.

I think we'll find out soon enough via the metrics on daily players next month. If players are dissatisfied with whatever solution, if any, that the game dev comes up with, players will simply leave the game and move on.

Unknown

I feel extremely let down and cheated by all this and my desire and excitement for all these future improvements seem to not matter that much to me anymore, let alone want to even play because of this recent incident. I really love marvel and have enjoyed this game, but D3, for every step forward you take, you seem to take two steps back. For Pete's sake listen to your damn customers!! Isn't that one of the reasons we have the forums? Not to delete, ignore, and shuffle topics everywhere. That's all it looks like as of late. At this point me continuing to play this game is very dependent on how this is resolved and am sad to say it looks bleak. I'm pretty sure other players are in the same boat.

I'm really not sure how this is gonna be fixed though. It's seems that they allowed for this to happen for an extremely long time. Not one assumption is a positive one for D3 right now. From letting this happen for so long to promoting legit players to spend more money "catching up", to even percentages for everyone else's pulls to be horrible etc. While these may not have all been their intentions, it has no doubt affected all this hearsay to an extent. Especially the odds in which the token draws are fubar for everyone across the board.

The comment on buying a pack/box of baseball cards was pretty good. It really is like having several crates of them distributed to stores and clerk some how scans or identifies the high profile packs containing the super rare cards, removes them and fills the boxes so the are full, seals them back up and stocks the shelves. And your naive butt finally has the chance to go and buy some of those packs or boxes and assume you just have bad luck and keep getting the same doubles.

I'm not even sure I'll believe that they will ban everyone that has cheated. Who's to say they have done it but still left certain players alone or some have slipped through the cracks. I'm very torn by the integrity of the company due to it knowing about it and ignoring it!! Can immediate, just damage control and communication still let D3 rebound from this? Or like many of the remarks on complaints I see on the forums say, this to shall pass and players will play as normal?

What ever the resolution is I hope it's one that has me continuing to play. I think it's very small but I do hope. Again, right now I feel let down and cheated.