Important Announcement: Legendary Tokens Exploit

ammenell

13 pages, and i still have to use google to get details on that exploit.

i just wasted the time for at least a full sub clear to read about a bunch of guys calling each other names.

franckynight

ammenell wrote:

13 pages, and i still have to use google to get details on that exploit.

i just wasted the time for at least a full sub clear to read about a bunch of guys calling each other names.

pve clear is a waste anyway.. so thats kind of a wash for you to have read this thread. at least it was entertaining to go through all this controversy.. reminds me of the golden days of the old xmen/venom/shield clash.. damn, i have played this game way too much.. (sigh)

puppychow

OJSP wrote:

All will be revealed soon enough.

I doubt it. This too shall pass!

evil panda

As a day 710 player who somehow never knew about this cheat until this thread, I find myself unable to be too angry at D3 for letting this go on. I think the most important - no, critical - thing is what they do in response.

Pinko_McFly

I am vaguely familiar with how the exploit was done due to the original post, but I still don't understand why there is this blanket assumption that people would not have used it on every single gold token that they used.
Yes, hunting down a specific 4* would be tedious, sure, maybe even hunting down 4*s. But would the time it take to turn say 10 gold tokens into at least 3*s and go from 2500 iso for selling them to 5000 for selling them be as tedious as trying to earn 2500 iso in PVE/PVP. I'm going to guess the exploit is/was quicker in this regard, so I wouldn't limit its effect on earlier tokens.

evil panda

aesthetocyst wrote:

evil panda wrote:

As a day 710 player who somehow never knew about this cheat until this thread, I find myself unable to be too angry at D3 for letting this go on. I think the most important - no, critical - thing is what they do in response.

See the OP. What about it gives impression that "further action" is forthcoming? It states that response is ongoing, and what that response is.

Well, to start, the second sentence. "We're updating Marvel Puzzle Quest to address this issue as quickly as we can."

Beyond that, some transparency about what was done to take action against cheaters would be very important for credibility. I don't see any definitive reports of any action having been taken at all...yet

Did I really need to spell all that out? Everyone's been eagerly waiting for D3 to post with an update, as far as I can tell, so I really thought that the "response" I was waiting for (I never wrote "further action") was self evident

Dayv

aesthetocyst wrote:

This "announcement" should have been in "News & Announcements" ... my guess is it is either here to give people a single place to vent (thereby heading off another thread-splosion), or by oversight.

Like most D3Go announcements, it was posted both in News and in General -- one gives a clean, just-the-facts place to quickly see the big news, while the other gives a spot for discussion of those announcements.

aesthetocyst wrote:

Technical details of any fix will not be forthcoming. Specific accounting of actions taken will not be forthcoming. The pitchfork crowd will not be fed, nor should they.

But, never know, right? We could be surprised.

The one detail I'd like would be a general number of how many accounts were sandboxed over this. I neither want them to nor think they should name even a single user specifically -- not because of fear of legal repercussions (I'm no lawyer, but that feels pretty paranoid to me), just because doing so is a bit tawdry and would violate the spirit of their own ban on calling players out.

Wobby

My two cents:
I understand why people would cheat to get ahead. They're damaged people. I've been playing online games for decades and this goes back to things like aim-bots in Counterstrike or giving yourself more farms in Warcraft.

What I've never understood is the POINT. How damaged are you that you have "fun" by cheating to beat other people in a game when there is no actual prize? You weren't getting good kill-to-death ratios through skill. There's no thrill or excitement for going on a run -- so why do it at all except because you're a jerk and like bringing other people down?

Earning covers IS the game. I've been sitting on almost 20,000 HP for months because I see no reason to max out any characters right now. What would be the point of just buying all the Iceman or Cyclops covers instead of continuing to try winning them? That's just me -- I don't begrudge folks who want to buy every cover of every character. Even THEY are still having to go out and earn them through competition in the release events.

I played 21 attempts at beating Doom with Mr Fantastic and 8 at beating IMHB with Cyclops until I won. That wasn't exactly "fun", per se... Especially the former... But it's actually the most thinking I've done in this game in months.


Yes, all the cheaters should be immediately and swiftly boxed.
But let's not forget to feel incredibly sorry for the people for whom life is so sad that their idea of "fun" is so twisted and warped.

BlackSheep101

Looks like I picked a good time to switch to MtGPQ. I initially skipped the majority of the thread, but had to go back when I saw all the flames. Anybody posting what Malcrof wrote would have stirred up a firestorm of resentment and hurt feelings, whether or not they were a moderator. It was offensive to essentially describe the entire player base as hypocrites and would be cheaters. I'm very grateful to the person who brought this issue to light here, as without attention and action, the game would very quickly become known as CPQ.

SnowcaTT

simonsez wrote:

Pending further word, the competitive integrity of this game as been completely compromised, potentially irreparably.

We'll only know this if folks stop spending and the game dries up. I know "SpendClub" is still happening.

Why anyone would spend a shiny dime on this game at this point is beyond me. Why spend anything on the cow when there are others out there getting the milk for free?

mrflopwelligan

Yikes, if this isn't the craziest thing I've seen in a while. Oh, well, it's the internet - wait 2 seconds and something else will get you riled up.

A few things:

1. I don't entirely disagree with Malcrof's points.

2. Malcrof's a moderator, but guess what - he's a player, too! I think a mod should be allowed to post as a mod AND a player. A moderator moderates. He polices the forums. He's not an expert at video game law. It was his opinion, nothing more. He's not an employee of Demiurge, he signed no employee contract. He doesn't speak for them. Moderators are not company spokespeople.

3. Let me say, I have only a vague idea of how this exploit worked, so I may be going on false information. I'm sure that if I am I will be berated endlessly. Anyway, there's a big difference between an exploit - a known glitch - and actively hacking the game files. Personally, I don't see exploiting a glitch as cheating - IF YOU DO, THAT'S FINE.

4. The same thing happened on another game I play. Guess what, nobody freaked out, nobody screamed for refunds. Everyone said: 'Well that was fun until they fixed it. Moving on.' And before you ask, yes people used it to their advantage, yes people got rewards that helped them surpass everyone else in the game. It was an exploit - not a hack.

5. Whatever D3 does with regards to compensation (if anything) I can definitely say that not everyone will be happy, some people will quit, many more people will SAY they quit - but, really, how's that any different than how this game has been going?

simonsez

mrflopwelligan wrote:

Anyway, there's a big difference between an exploit - a known glitch - and actively hacking the game files. Personally, I don't see exploiting a glitch as cheating - IF YOU DO, THAT'S FINE.

i think a distinction has to be drawn when it comes to what it takes to exploit the glitch. For example, in another game I've played, there was a glitch that involved vaulting characters and then restoring them to your active roster. If you followed a particular sequence, you could duplicate attributes of one of the characters. So you take 1 buffed character and 9 weak ones, move them in and out, and you get 10 buffed characters. Was this cheating? Hell yeah. Were people banned? Hell no. They were just using in-game functions that led to unforeseen benefits. This is VERY different from force-quitting and switching devices. Those are NOT part of normal gameplay, the way vaulting and recalling are in that other game.

This is more analogous to another cheat scandal in that other game. People were able to duplicate items and characters by triggering trades and then disabling their internet connection. Client side thought the trade went through and added the item to your inventory, and server side thought the trade was still pending. Rinse and repeat. Were those people banned? Hell yeah. There's a difference between exploiting a glitch via gameplay and exploiting a glitch via screwing around with your devices.

Phaserhawk

One thing that dawned on me. We all talked about how it wasn't a big deal before LT, but then as I was looking at DDQ I realized the huge problem there.

Before even LT, you could have re-rolled for 1000HP and 4* covers, not to mention 12 250HP's. Given it recycles every 5 days, but that's 10 Tacos that could give you.

3000 HP or
Top 3 prizes before was 3 4*'s = 2500 Hp and those 4* covers.
But now, you could literally walk away with a 5* from the LT, and 3000 HP every 5 days.

This is absolutely game warping, essentially re-rolling and DDQ could provide you with infinite HP, ISO and LT's.

Think about it, you could have every day grabbed 1000HP and 10,0000iso every day, then reset the vault. 50,0000 in free ISO plus 1000HP every 5 days. Before the tokens switched over.

DDQ could have essential gotten you all the HP needed to max cover your 4*'s assuming you had 1 in each for free, plus ISO to level them up

While this obviously is a 1/300 chance it wouldn't take very long over the course of 5 days to do this.

This really pisses me off, the fact they knew and did nothing, yet they will probably be able to fix this in less than a week (basically they have to fix the force close or the token is pre-assigned before you open it, thus negating the force close trick) either way it wasn't until it became a economy warping problem because I'm guessing the majority of the cheaters were high spenders, and not until the lots of non-high spenders got involved did they choose to intervene.

This is obviously speculation, but there are 3 reasons why people general do things sex, money, power. They are also reasons people don't do things, but you can add laziness or apathy to that pile. I can pretty much rule out sex and power since none are really obtained, which means the reason none of this was fixed priory was due to money, laziness or apathy. I can understand the 1st the other 2 would tick me off more.

Polares

simonsez wrote:

mrflopwelligan wrote:

Anyway, there's a big difference between an exploit - a known glitch - and actively hacking the game files. Personally, I don't see exploiting a glitch as cheating - IF YOU DO, THAT'S FINE.

i think a distinction has to be drawn when it comes to what it takes to exploit the glitch. For example, in another game I've played, there was a glitch that involved vaulting characters and then restoring them to your active roster. If you followed a particular sequence, you could duplicate attributes of one of the characters. So you take 1 buffed character and 9 weak ones, move them in and out, and you get 10 buffed characters. Was this cheating? Hell yeah. Were people banned? Hell no. They were just using in-game functions that led to unforeseen benefits. This is VERY different from force-quitting and switching devices. Those are NOT part of normal gameplay, the way vaulting and recalling are in that other game.

This is more analogous to another cheat scandal in that other game. People were able to duplicate items and characters by triggering trades and then disabling their internet connection. Client side thought the trade went through and added the item to your inventory, and server side thought the trade was still pending. Rinse and repeat. Were those people banned? Hell yeah. There's a difference between exploiting a glitch via gameplay and exploiting a glitch via screwing around with your devices.

I get your point, but in this exploit you are not really messing with something, just closing the App, and then using another device. You don't need to alter any savegame, or make your connection slower or any other thing, you don't mess with the game, you just use the sync option to your own advantage.

Another famous exploit quite similar to this one is the one you could do in the second Raid in Destiny, it involved knowing which player was the server and then in an exact moment of the game that player just needed to close the game (force quit), and the you were able to kill the final raid boss without problems. Bungie needed like a month to fix the exploit. Did they ban anybody? Of course not, because it was THEIR mistake.

The big difference is that Destiny is more cooperative than competitive (because multi was equalized for different levels and equipment), so the equipment that you got in the raid was just helping you and your team-mates, not affecting that much matches against other people. In this case 5s are something really big and give you a big advantage against your rivals, but if the exploit is two years old more reason to be JUST DEVS FAULT.

So I agree with all that say that players need to be time-warped to before 5s were introduced.

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

mrflopwelligan wrote:

Anyway, there's a big difference between an exploit - a known glitch - and actively hacking the game files. Personally, I don't see exploiting a glitch as cheating - IF YOU DO, THAT'S FINE.

i think a distinction has to be drawn when it comes to what it takes to exploit the glitch. For example, in another game I've played, there was a glitch that involved vaulting characters and then restoring them to your active roster. If you followed a particular sequence, you could duplicate attributes of one of the characters. So you take 1 buffed character and 9 weak ones, move them in and out, and you get 10 buffed characters. Was this cheating? Hell yeah. Were people banned? Hell no. They were just using in-game functions that led to unforeseen benefits. This is VERY different from force-quitting and switching devices. Those are NOT part of normal gameplay, the way vaulting and recalling are in that other game.

This is more analogous to another cheat scandal in that other game. People were able to duplicate items and characters by triggering trades and then disabling their internet connection. Client side thought the trade went through and added the item to your inventory, and server side thought the trade was still pending. Rinse and repeat. Were those people banned? Hell yeah. There's a difference between exploiting a glitch via gameplay and exploiting a glitch via screwing around with your devices.

spot on simon

Here's an example of an okay glitch.

Mario Kart 64--There was a glitch in the game where if you timed your jump right you could cut a corner in the mud course. Is that cheating? No, unintended for sure but it became a skill to do it, and sometimes glitches become more fun. Now what if during that game where you can do random character or course and I purposefully manipulate the game by pulling the game out and putting it back in really quick to always get the best character suited for the course. Is that cheating, I'm just exploiting the pull out glitch. Yes, because you are gaining an unfair advantage. Sure the game still works, sure you could still beat me with your less than ideal character for said course, but I have an advantage.

That's the difference. There's exploiting a glitch and cheating with a glitch. A glitch explotation was when Vision's dmg tile boosted attack tiles, but doing this to get better characters is glitch cheating.

fight4thedream

Mod note: Malcrof's posts and posts reacting to it were split from this thread since they were derailing this thread. If you believe your post was erroneously moved, please contact me or another mod and we will move it back here. The split thread can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36663#p454996

jffdougan

fight4thedream wrote:

Instead of tearing each other down, why don't we focus on the real issues here and what points we wish the devs to address? There is an exploit that has apparently been used by a segment of the player population to gain an unfair advantage with token pulls, especially Legendary tokens. Our main concern is that the game's integrity has been compromised and the onus is on D3 and Demiurge to restore our confidence. We like this game a lot and want to be able to continue playing knowing that we are not being one upped by someone that took an unfair shortcut. Therefore, we ask that the following questions be answered:

- How do we trust you (D3/Demiurge) again?
- What actions have been taken to fix the exploit?
- What actions have been taken to punish those that have abused this exploit?
- Can this exploit be used for other tokens besides Legendary Tokens? And if so, can you identify players that have abused this exploit for other tokens as well?
- How long have you been aware of the exploit?
- Are the 5* drop rates truly 3.3% per draw (9.9% total since there are 3 of them)?
- Will there be any compensation for those who may have been cheated from rewards by players who acquired strong rosters unfairly?
- How many players have you flagged for using the exploit?

I do believe these are all the questions that have been brought up so far in this thread. Honestly, I think the first three are the most important but I included the other questions because I know that for others these are important issues. As has already been mentioned, it is the weekend so don't expect a response from them until Monday at the earliest. If you feel I missed an important point or question, please feel free to let me know and I will include it. Otherwise, please try to enjoy your Sunday (or Monday depending where in the world you are living lol).

I'll clean up my quote later, but presently on mobile.

The current probability for a 5* is 3.3333333333% per - it's a total pool of 10% for all 3, divided evenly. IceIX did an explanation of something similar back when they boosted the chance of a 4* in heroic tokens.

DrStrange-616

How do we trust Demiurge/D3 again?

This is the question, isn't it? My trust in them was already shaky before this fiasco. I've been asking myself what it would take for them to win me back, and I'm not sure. I doubt they'll fire themselves. I am, however, fairly sure, what it would take won't happen. Their MO has been basically to ignore problems and complaints. Unless the ghost of Christmas future shows them what life will be like this time next year (RIP, MPQ), I doubt much of substance will happen.

Omega Red

Months ago I actually discovered by accident the glitch that enables this exploit and it never ocurred to me to use it to optimize the outcome of my tokens. I guess I'm too naive and well-intentioned because I really never thought I could use that to control what covers I got.

From a TECHNICAL point of view, this is not hacking which involves tampering with the code or the infrastructure that runs said code. It's not a cheat under the context of a dev leaving intentionally some secret codes that unlock certain game items. It's an exploit. The system works as intended, but if used in a certain way that was not meant to be used, it produces system-breaking results. This is an important distinction to make because it helps to understand who carries the weight of responsibility here, named: the developing team.

Closest real life example I can come up with is an ATM machine. Imagine one of those giving away money without charging it to your account if operated certain way. Now imagine said machine operating with that exploit during two full years, giving away some free money to some lucky, unsuspecting users. Whether it knows about the exploit or not, the bank is fully responsible for the money lost. Whether users abused the exploit or not is besides the point, the first and sole responsible is the bank that allowed the exploit to exist for so long.

In my opinion, the integrity of the game has been compromised beyond repair. I agree that the actual impact in game scores and rankings must be minimal and mainly among the highest elite, but consider this: the exploit has been sitting there forever, who knows how many 3* and 4* were obtained this way? And now it has tampered with three months of purchases worthy of thousands of dollars.

I won't vilify those who abused the exploit. Most of them probably still spent a lot of money to buy all those tokens, shields, etc. I don't know what could be appropiate punishment. Sandboxing seems too much as technically they didn't tamper with the code, they just played a exploit, a big one since it affects the economy and finances of the game but still only an exploit nevertheless. On the other hand, a rollback to what they had in their accounts prior to legendaries seems too forgiving. Regardless of what is done to them, demiurge should refund every penny spent by those players. It would be the only way to recover any sense of credibility.

I agree with what others have said in regards to compensation. I don't think you can put a price to trust and credibility.

**** hit the fan this time.

DrStrange-616

Omega Red wrote:

Now imagine said machine operating with that exploit during two full years, giving away some free money to some lucky, unsuspecting users.

I'm with you except for this part, and it's an important one. People who used the exploit repeatedly were not remotely unsuspecting. They knew they had to do the token hokey pokey at the ATM again and again to get those crisp new 20s. They knew it wasn't right, it wasn't their money, but they knowingly did it. They cheated and they knew they were.