Important Announcement: Legendary Tokens Exploit

morph3us

Just going to make a comment that's probably not going to be all that popular, given the torches and pitchforks being waved around at the moment.

Firstly, it seems very unlikely that re-rolling has affected anyone else's token odds, as very nicely reasoned by many posts above, so the general playerbase hasn't been adversely affected by the act of re-rolling itself. It seems extremely likely that token odds are fixed to be random, as displayed in the drop percentages, and it's clear from the exploit itself that the client, not the server, determines the drop.

Secondly, I think this comment by OJSP is actually quite important:

OJSP wrote:

Hanzo0313 wrote:

It's really unfair. I am losing the battle because the developer's coding bugs?

Possibly.. Without knowing who you are personally or your roster, only you know the answer to that for sure.

Which is to say, the only people significantly disadvantaged by the re-rolling exploit are the top level PvPers, who have not been able to compete with a level 450 5*. I have 6 optimally covered 4*s, with several others very close to being optimal now. I primarily play with a 4* roster, and personally I've never competed against any of these max 5* players for position, so their using the re-rolling exploit doesn't affect me in the slightest. It hasn't stopped me from reaching the 1000 and 1300 point progressions in PvP. I don't mean to belittle anyone who does feel like these players have stopped them from reaching 1st in their PvP bracket, but those players who were competing against the exploiters represent a very, very small proportion of the overall playerbase, and not a significant number of players, as the general sentiment would have.

Thirdly, in terms of re-rolling heroics, at a 0.2% chance of pulling a particular 4* that I might want, I really can't imagine that most sane people would try that. I understand that people grind PvE events for Command Points, hell, I do too, but when you've taken the three non-Command Point rewards from a node, you're grinding for a 50% chance of pulling the reward you want. It's nothing like a 0.2% re-roll that sounds like the worst way to spend my weekend.

I take the point that Demiurge probably should have acted sooner, and probably ignored this exploit for too long, but I also do think that conflating this to undermining the whole game is hyperbolic.

Dauthi

Considering the exploit, this was possible with 4*s too, right? So how many players maxed out their 4*s using it? How deep does this go exactly?

***
EDIT

I can't PM you OJSP, so I wanted to let you know your upvote comment made me LOL.

franckynight

I wonder if the banhammer has already been out.. I scrolled through all top alliances and i didnt see many changes.. I ve noticed some have been jettisoned but nothing earthshaking.. Mb all this has just been blown out of proportion.. Im happy not having been aware of this thing.. Tbh i would have used it.. When i think at my 0/50 streaks on LT.. It would have spared me frustration and money.. What this whole thing is telling me is that letting RNG decide high end play was a big mistake and this tokengate showed that..

Bowgentle

franckynight wrote:

What this whole thing is telling me is that letting RNG decide high end play was a big mistake and this tokengate showed that..

We all knew that and have been saying so since September.
Everybody thought so, except the devs.

Polares

Dauthi wrote:

Polares wrote:

Yeah, I don't think they can really know that something has happened, all the 'cheating' is done in the client side, so it is very hard to know. And closing the app a lot doesnt mean you are a cheater (the SO closes the app a lot too when in the background, at least on ios).

The only way they have to know if something has happened is check the % of pulling 5, 4 and 3 for every user and if they are way off then they can suspect something has happened. I guess with 5s it is easier because you can just obtain them with legendaries, and if someone has a 80% or more rate of pulling 5s, that person is a cheater almost for sure. BUT if that person has been clever and he has maintained his ratio under 30% or something like that, devs dont have any way of knowing if he has been extremely lucky or he has cheated, and he would still be way ahead of the competition.

The only way of fixing this is opening the tokens in the server, then the exploit would be closed forever.

I feel like we are all at an impasse. We want/need to know that D3 is actually handling this or bluffing/setting examples. If they are not bluffing, explaining their methods would harm the process however. This forces into not knowing, and hoping for the best.

Notamutant and I discussed it a bit, and they likely have stats on 5*s pulled across the player base, but do they have individual records too? It's possible, if so then like Polares says they simply look at the % of 5*s pulled on the account. I also think it depends on how many tokens they have opened. If they have opened a lot, then they should be really close to 10%, and something like a 15-20% ratio would be extremely unlikely (depending on the sample size). On the other hand it is entirely possible for someone who has only opened a small amount to reach high percentages.

It's hard to keep playing a game when you know you are at an unfair disadvantage. Some word from D3 on anything would be great, because I am worried the game might be done at this point, but they obviously wouldn't tell us anything bad.

Thing is the number of possible tokens opened is not that big so percentages above 10% are perfectly possible. I myself have opened around 65 tokens and I have a 20% ratio (and I didnt cheat of course). Even 30% is perfectly possible when just 100 elements are considered. We would need more than 1000, probably more than 10000 elements for the distribution to really reach the 10% for everybody (these distributions reach the limit at infinity). And without considering CPs I think the maximum number of legendaries you could have won is less than a 100 or around the 100.

One thing we can all assume is THIS EXPLOIT HAS NOT AFFECTED PULLS OF NON CHEATERS, as I said this is a client said exploit, and tokens are opened in the client, so it doesnt affect anybody else pulls. I think we can be safe in that regard.

Another positive thing is that I dont think the exploit is as widespread as it could have been, I have just found like 3-4 people with these insane amount of 5s, you can check all top10 alliances and the number is not that big, so or they were instantly sandboxed or the problem is not that big. Annoying yes, but not that widespread (or they just started doing it).

puppychow

franckynight wrote:

I wonder if the banhammer has already been out.. I scrolled through all top alliances and i didnt see many changes.. I ve noticed some have been jettisoned but nothing earthshaking.. Mb all this has just been blown out of proportion.. Im happy not having been aware of this thing.. Tbh i would have used it.. When i think at my 0/50 streaks on LT.. It would have spared me frustration and money.. What this whole thing is telling me is that letting RNG decide high end play was a big mistake and this tokengate showed that..

How would you handle distribution of 5* covers to players, if not via RNG? Whatever method is used, someone will not be happy about it.

fmftint

aesthetocyst wrote:

Spiderham wrote:

Manipulating the odds would not be the correct solution. It would be the lazy one...

When has Demiurge EVER chose a correct solution instread of a lazy one?

20 iso reward
Lazy (ahem, GOLD) character developement
Rng for placement cover disribution
Rng for 4/5☆ progression

Unknown

I would like to say goodbye to staff. After things like that and the game worse, both in luck tokens as gameplay, I don't have more patience to stay in the game. Good fun for those who stay.

fight4thedream

Instead of tearing each other down, why don't we focus on the real issues here and what points we wish the devs to address? There is an exploit that has apparently been used by a segment of the player population to gain an unfair advantage with token pulls, especially Legendary tokens. Our main concern is that the game's integrity has been compromised and the onus is on D3 and Demiurge to restore our confidence. We like this game a lot and want to be able to continue playing knowing that we are not being one upped by someone that took an unfair shortcut. Therefore, we ask that the following questions be answered:

- How do we trust you (D3/Demiurge) again?
- What actions have been taken to fix the exploit?
- What actions have been taken to punish those that have abused this exploit?
- Can this exploit be used for other tokens besides Legendary Tokens? And if so, can you identify players that have abused this exploit for other tokens as well?
- How long have you been aware of the exploit?
- Are the 5* drop rates truly 3.3% per draw (9.9% total since there are 3 of them)?
- Will there be any compensation for those who may have been cheated from rewards by players who acquired strong rosters unfairly?
- How many players have you flagged for using the exploit?

I do believe these are all the questions that have been brought up so far in this thread. Honestly, I think the first three are the most important but I included the other questions because I know that for others these are important issues. As has already been mentioned, it is the weekend so don't expect a response from them until Monday at the earliest. If you feel I missed an important point or question, please feel free to let me know and I will include it. Otherwise, please try to enjoy your Sunday (or Monday depending where in the world you are living lol).

RWTDBurn

fight4thedream wrote:

Instead of tearing each other down, why don't we focus on the real issues here and what points we wish the devs to address? There is an exploit that has apparently been used by a segment of the player population to gain an unfair advantage with token pulls, especially Legendary tokens. Our main concern is that the game's integrity has been compromised and the onus is on the D3 and Demiurge to restore our confidence. We like this game a lot and want to be able to continue playing knowing that we are not being one upped by someone that took an unfair shortcut. Therefore, we ask that the following questions be answered:

- What actions have been taken to fix the exploit?
- What actions have been taken to punish those that have abused this exploit?
- Can this exploit be used for other tokens besides Legendary Tokens? And if so, can you identify players that have abused this exploit for other tokens as well?
- How long have you been aware of the exploit?
- Will there be any compensation for those who may have been cheated from rewards by players who acquired strong rosters unfairly?
- How many players have you flagged for using the exploit?

I do believe these are all the questions that have been brought up so far in this thread. Honestly, I think the first three are the most important but I included the other questions because I know that for others these are important issues. As has already been mentioned, it is the weekend so don't expect a response from them until Monday at the earliest. If you feel I missed an important point or question, please feel free to let me know and I will include it. Otherwise, please try to enjoy your Sunday (or Monday depending where in the world you are living lol).

This is a very good list of questions. I'd like to add the following, just for clarification as the answer would greatly impact your 5th question on your list regarding compensation.


- Are the 5* drop rates truly 3.3% per draw (9.9% total since there are 3 of them)?

If in the off chance they are actually using a global vault system for draws (which I highly doubt they are) then the "Drop rates are per draw" statement in the information screen for legendary tokens is a lie. The drop rate per draw percentages would be in constant fluctuation based on the number of 5*s already pulled globally so these cheaters would be lowered the percentage for everyone else. Stating inaccurate odds on anything that involves real world money is serious and can lead to legal action against them. As someone that has spend a few hundred dollars on this game and has only drawn 3 5*s out of 75 Legendary Tokens I sure as hell would want some of that action if someone filed suit. Again, I seriously doubt they would do this but there needs to be some transparency here. In the off chance that they actually are using a global vault system then the only compensation that could keep them out of a courtroom would be to give random 5*s to everyone based on the number of 5*s they currently have acquired through Legendary Tokesn and the number of Legendary Tokens that they've used so that their percentage is equal to or higher than their advertised rate of 9.9%

lukewin

If I wouldve known about it, or how to do it, I would've re-rolled twice, both times I've seen that purple flash. Unlike most people, I don't want any 5* yet, and I'm saying that as someone who is over 80% done with covering my 4* to my preferred specs. The OML red wouldn't be dead weight occupying a 1k HP roster slot giving the PVE initial level/scaling formula an inflated average level of my top characters that isn't indicative of my roster. The single Phoenix green wouldn't be sitting in my queue waiting to be rostered within the next 3 days.

I wonder if I'd have been considered for punishment if I did so, since it doesn't seem like they cared about the exploit til people were using it on LT to get 5*.

The rerolls would've probably resulted in covers I'd apply to my dupes anyways but better than single covers for different 5*. I'd probably feel different about 5* if they weren't only available by lucky token pulls or an absurd amount of Command Points to purchase one after you've had the luck to pull one.

Colognoisseur

fight4thedream wrote:

Instead of tearing each other down, why don't we focus on the real issues here and what points we wish the devs to address? There is an exploit that has apparently been used by a segment of the player population to gain an unfair advantage with token pulls, especially Legendary tokens. Our main concern is that the game's integrity has been compromised and the onus is on D3 and Demiurge to restore our confidence. We like this game a lot and want to be able to continue playing knowing that we are not being one upped by someone that took an unfair shortcut. Therefore, we ask that the following questions be answered:

- What actions have been taken to fix the exploit?
- What actions have been taken to punish those that have abused this exploit?
- Can this exploit be used for other tokens besides Legendary Tokens? And if so, can you identify players that have abused this exploit for other tokens as well?
- How long have you been aware of the exploit?
- Are the 5* drop rates truly 3.3% per draw (9.9% total since there are 3 of them)?
- Will there be any compensation for those who may have been cheated from rewards by players who acquired strong rosters unfairly?
- How many players have you flagged for using the exploit?

I do believe these are all the questions that have been brought up so far in this thread. Honestly, I think the first three are the most important but I included the other questions because I know that for others these are important issues. As has already been mentioned, it is the weekend so don't expect a response from them until Monday at the earliest. If you feel I missed an important point or question, please feel free to let me know and I will include it. Otherwise, please try to enjoy your Sunday (or Monday depending where in the world you are living lol).

My biggest question even before the ones you've asked is this:

How do we trust you (D3/Demiurge) again?

This was a known exploit from day one. when I started playing MPQ about two weeks after it was released over two years ago there was a post on how to improve your initial token drop by using pretty much the same exploit used for the LT. This has been hard coded from day 1.

You implement one of the most overbearing changes in the game while you were fully aware there was a way to game the system. How could you not think this was going to happen?

The way you handle this and how transparent you are about it will go a long way towards mending the fences. I hope you do not spend days coming up with the appropriate response. The longer this goes on the more likely the answer to my question will be "We can never trust you again."

The Bob The

puppychow wrote:

How would you handle distribution of 5* covers to players, if not via RNG? Whatever method is used, someone will not be happy about it.

Marvel Puzzle Quest: Whatever Method is Used, Someone Will Not Be Happy About It

The Bob The

lukewin wrote:

If I wouldve known about it, or how to do it, I would've re-rolled twice, both times I've seen that purple flash. Unlike most people, I don't want any 5* yet, and I'm saying that as someone who is over 80% done with covering my 4* to my preferred specs. The OML red wouldn't be dead weight occupying a 1k HP roster slot giving the PVE initial level/scaling formula an inflated average level of my top characters that isn't indicative of my roster. The single Phoenix green wouldn't be sitting in my queue waiting to be rostered within the next 3 days.

I wonder if I'd have been considered for punishment if I did so, since it doesn't seem like they cared about the exploit til people were using it on LT to get 5*.

The rerolls would've probably resulted in covers I'd apply to my dupes anyways but better than single covers for different 5*. I'd probably feel different about 5* if they weren't only available by lucky token pulls or an absurd amount of Command Points to purchase one after you've had the luck to pull one.

I haven't cared too much about this discussion so far - I don't cheat, and I have a skip button for when I encounter a fully leveled 5* - but THIS. Every time I see that damn purple screen (granted, it's only been three), my gut just drops because things are about to get harder again. Amazing that avoiding the game's highest prize is the one thing that leads me to consider cheating.

Linkster79

fight4thedream wrote:

Therefore, we ask that the following questions be answered:

- What actions have been taken to fix the exploit?
- What actions have been taken to punish those that have abused this exploit?
- Can this exploit be used for other tokens besides Legendary Tokens? And if so, can you identify players that have abused this exploit for other tokens as well?
- How long have you been aware of the exploit?
- Are the 5* drop rates truly 3.3% per draw (9.9% total since there are 3 of them)?
- Will there be any compensation for those who may have been cheated from rewards by players who acquired strong rosters unfairly?
- How many players have you flagged for using the exploit?

I can answer these for you now.

1. We are unable to divulge that in the interests of preventing people from finding and exploit to fix the exploit.

2. We have been aware for a while and have been looking for a fix.

3. The drop rates for all tokens are as stated in game.

4. We do not have the resources to do this, blanket compensation for all who logged in during the last x days will be 100HP and a Heroic Token. This will then be case closed.

5. It is our policy to not publicly name any player who may be suspected of cheating.

All generic answers to important question and of no real value. I am being very generous with compensation mind and in reality not expecting even that. This exploit is too old and the development team really won't be bothered to look through months of versus events and leader boards to cross reference players.

Another reality is this exploit won't be dealt with at all and all this posturing is just scare tactics to try and prevent it happening again in the near future. Expect another outcry in 12 months, assuming the lights haven't been switched off before then.

On a side note I know moderators are players too and have their own opinions but their conduct really should be whiter than white.

Dwarfsteel

First off I'd like to mirror other's comments by saying Malcrof's comments were rather unacceptable. Yes, he does have the right to his own opinion, but as a person in a position of some authority this is not the place to express it. Someone in that kind of position more or less condoning the use of an exploit is poor form.

Lastly I think it is naive to assume this only affects the top tier of play as stated by others and that this has only had a recent effect on the game. One use may have little effect over all, but the aggregate of continued use over time would absolutely result in a ripple effect that touches every single player to some extent. The devs decisions are absolutely somewhat based on player performance. Point rewards are based off of past performance, no? Even a slight unfair skewing affects everyone to one degree or another.One of the more appealing aspects of this game is the collection of characters. I believe it is safe to assume there have been enough incidents of this exploit being used at all levels of play since it has apparently been around for almost 2 years. Those who have been using it more than likely applied it to all tiers of their roster so that they have the full collection. Also, have to agree that those who utilized this exploit would absolutely sit there and repeat it until the desired result was achieved. It would be far less frustrating grinding the exploit for guaranteed desired results than grinding the game for vastly uncertain odds like the majority of the player base. Buy a heroic pack and there's 10 or 40 covers towards what you need.

Sure these people may be short term "whales" but at a certain point their spending will end as they reach a point where spending is no longer much of a requirement. Not taking action will upset the remaining spenders likely resulting in many dropping the game. As top end players (many of whom are big spenders) leave out of rage you'll eventually be left with mostly the cheaters and free players. All of whom will lose interest much sooner than if the game was run on fair play. The end result is the death of the game way before it should be and the cutting back of staff at D3.

Phaserhawk

Interesting how this thread has gone from serves the cheaters right to anger at D3.

Both fight and Malcrof make good points. What's being done and man I wish I could have.

Having slept on this, I have come to what I feel a fair compensation and moving forward type of view

To the re-rollers, no sandboxed penalty but you are rolled back to at least pre Legendary token roster or perhaps a little more. You are not as much to blame and your cash flow is why this wasn't done sooner

To D3. An apology and the real reason. Plus a legendary token for every $20 a player has spent on your game, a heroic for every $5 for all those who didn't cheat

My faith would be restored and wallet open again

morph3us

Dwarfsteel wrote:

Lastly I think it is naive to assume this only affects the top tier of play as stated by others and that this has only had a recent effect on the game. One of the more appealing aspects of this game is the collection of characters. I believe it is safe to assume there have been enough incidents of this exploit being used at all levels of play since it has apparently been around for almost 2 years. Those who have been using it more than likely applied it to all tiers of their roster so that they have the full collection. Also, have to agree that those who utilized this exploit would absolutely sit there and repeat it until the desired result was achieved. It would be far less frustrating grinding the exploit for guaranteed desired results than grinding the game for vastly uncertain odds like the majority of the player base. Buy a heroic pack and there's 10 or 40 covers towards what you need.

As far as I understand it, the exploit applies to single token packs, not 10 or 40 packs (due to the need to exploit the client-server sync issues between multiple devices). A person could have hoarded a number of single Heroic tokens, but not purchased a 10 or 40 pack to exploit it.

I definitely take your point about the nature of the game and collection of characters, but if we have a look at single Heroic token drop rates, we get the following percentages:
- for 4* characters, the drop rate for a specific 4* is 0.2%. If you pull that 4* you desire, there's a 1 in 3 chance that it will be the colour cover that you want, so the actual specific drop rate for a desired colour cover is actually extremely low (0.06%)
- for 3* characters, the drop rate for a specific 3* is 0.6%. Again, if you pull that 3* you desire, there's a 1 in 3 chance that it will be the colour that you want, so the actual specific drop rate again is extremely low (0.2%)

As such, I still maintain it's extremely unlikely anything but the most persistent fringe of players would try and reroll using Heroic or Event tokens (event tokens have a drop rate of 0.7% for the featured 4*, so 0.23% for a specific cover). You could potentially make a case for a 4* debut PvP, where the drop rate is in the order of about 2%, but you're still looking at 0.7% or so for a specific cover.

It's a different odds scenario, when you're looking at Legendary Tokens, particularly in the first two months. There was a 10% chance of pulling a 5*, and a 5% chance of pulling specifically OML or SS, so a 1.6% chance of pulling a specific colour cover. In this case, though, it appears that the rerollers were happy to roster duplicates, so we're probably looking more at the global 10% reroll rate. The exploit process, as was briefly published, was extremely manual, due to the need to use two devices, and as such, I'd speculate that the exploit was mostly applicable Legendary Tokens, and therefore extremely high end play.

_Vitto

Phaserhawk wrote:

Interesting how this thread has gone from serves the cheaters right to anger at D3.

Both fight and Malcrof make good points. What's being done and man I wish I could have.

Having slept on this, I have come to what I feel a fair compensation and moving forward type of view

To the re-rollers, no sandboxed penalty but you are rolled back to at least pre Legendary token roster or perhaps a little more. You are not as much to blame and your cash flow is why this wasn't done sooner

To D3. An apology and the real reason. Plus a legendary token for every $20 a player has spent on your game, a heroic for every $5 for all those who didn't cheat

My faith would be restored and wallet open again

I don't get how can you define good what Malcrof wrote. That's literally the worst adjective to describe his thought. And it's even worse considering he's a mod.

Also, I think that we should avoid at all costs to suggest compensation. It's a sign that we don't give a damn about what happened. We don't know anything about the number of players involved and the weight of their cheat on the whole game, and the subsequent repercussion on us.

When (and if) these details are provided, we may think IF our faith in the game can be restored or not.

fmftint

morph3us wrote:

Dwarfsteel wrote:

Lastly I think it is naive to assume this only affects the top tier of play as stated by others and that this has only had a recent effect on the game. One of the more appealing aspects of this game is the collection of characters. I believe it is safe to assume there have been enough incidents of this exploit being used at all levels of play since it has apparently been around for almost 2 years. Those who have been using it more than likely applied it to all tiers of their roster so that they have the full collection. Also, have to agree that those who utilized this exploit would absolutely sit there and repeat it until the desired result was achieved. It would be far less frustrating grinding the exploit for guaranteed desired results than grinding the game for vastly uncertain odds like the majority of the player base. Buy a heroic pack and there's 10 or 40 covers towards what you need.

As far as I understand it, the exploit applies to single token packs, not 10 or 40 packs (due to the need to exploit the client-server sync issues between multiple devices). A person could have hoarded a number of single Heroic tokens, but not purchased a 10 or 40 pack to exploit it.

I definitely take your point about the nature of the game and collection of characters, but if we have a look at single Heroic token drop rates, we get the following percentages:
- for 4* characters, the drop rate for a specific 4* is 0.2%. If you pull that 4* you desire, there's a 1 in 3 chance that it will be the colour cover that you want, so the actual specific drop rate for a desired colour cover is actually extremely low (0.06%)
- for 3* characters, the drop rate for a specific 3* is 0.6%. Again, if you pull that 3* you desire, there's a 1 in 3 chance that it will be the colour that you want, so the actual specific drop rate again is extremely low (0.2%)

As such, I still maintain it's extremely unlikely anything but the most persistent fringe of players would try and reroll using Heroic or Event tokens (event tokens have a drop rate of 0.7% for the featured 4*, so 0.23% for a specific cover). You could potentially make a case for a 4* debut PvP, where the drop rate is in the order of about 2%, but you're still looking at 0.7% or so for a specific cover.

It's a different odds scenario, when you're looking at Legendary Tokens, particularly in the first two months. There was a 10% chance of pulling a 5*, and a 5% chance of pulling specifically OML or SS, so a 1.6% chance of pulling a specific colour cover. In this case, though, it appears that the rerollers were happy to roster duplicates, so we're probably looking more at the global 10% reroll rate. The exploit process, as was briefly published, was extremely manual, due to the need to use two devices, and as such, I'd speculate that the exploit was mostly applicable Legendary Tokens, and therefore extremely high end play.

You assume a reroller is looking for specific covers not just 4☆s. Heroic packs have a 4.5% chance to pull a 4☆ cover. And like LTs the pull animation is different from tier to tier. They weren't lookong for specific covers, they were lookong for a favorable animation