Important Announcement: Legendary Tokens Exploit

puppychow

Linkster79 wrote:

5. It is our policy to not publicly name any player who may be suspected of cheating.

There is a legitimate reason behind this though. The named player could SUE in court for defamation, and put the onus on the game publisher to prove that the player cheated by whatever standard of proof (more likely than not, beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.) the court requires; the kicker here is that the evidence the publisher has may not be legally adequate. Furthermore, if the player is located outside the U.S., then D3 would have to defend itself in that foreign jurisdiction at tremendous costs. From a cost benefits analysis, it's totally NOT WORTH publicly shaming anyone. Simply ban the exploiter and move on.

puppychow

Dwarfsteel wrote:

As top end players (many of whom are big spenders) leave out of rage you'll eventually be left with mostly the cheaters and free players. All of whom will lose interest much sooner than if the game was run on fair play. The end result is the death of the game way before it should be and the cutting back of staff at Dr.

I'll be honest. Depending on D3's response, there is a VERY strong possibility of the super whales leaving this game, and force MPQ into a slow death spiral.

I've encountered a similar situation when I was playing Archeage. There was a lot of cheating going on via exploits, and even super whales couldn't keep up with the cheaters. This was significant because the end game featured competitive PvP play, and the gear pretty much determined the matches. Thus, players started leaving the game in droves and the population drop forced Trion to cut the game servers by half. I could see a similar situation happening with MPQ if players are not satisfied with D3's response, if any, to this LT exploit.

madok

Is it just me or do they always tend to make announcements that generate a ton of questions/buzz and then drop the mic and walk off the stage?

I understand it is the weekend but if something like this happens at a lot of other companies they don't just pull the plug and pretend nothing happens during the weekend.

I was planning on picking up a Stark's salary this weekend but those plans are definitely on hold now. Guess I should stop telling relatives to get me Google Play gift cards for Xmas.

puppychow

Madok, I don't expect a small company to be having an emergency meeting on a Sunday afternoon to discuss this. In fairness, I'm sure the guys are underpaid and deal w/ a lot of stress, and need the weekend to recharge their mental batteries.

That said, I think the player base will give the publisher this month to see what kind of response D3 comes up with. If it is inadequate, players will leave the game next month, if not sooner.

Linkster79

It is standard operating procedure. Drop a metric tonne of **** and hope it blows away over the weekend. Seriously why fret and deal with it when they can just ignore it for a few days and hope it just goes away?

Dayv

_Vitto wrote:

Also, I think that we should avoid at all costs to suggest compensation. It's a sign that we don't give a damn about what happened. We don't know anything about the number of players involved and the weight of their cheat on the whole game, and the subsequent repercussion on us.

When (and if) these details are provided, we may think IF our faith in the game can be restored or not.

I like free stuff, and if I get some freebies for not being among the minority of players abusing this bug I certainly won't refuse them, but there's really only one kind of compensation I'm interested in: knowing that the players abusing this exploit have been sandboxed away from the honest majority.

I'm not utterly draconian -- I don't care if someone who tried it once or twice but decided it wasn't worth the effort gets punished -- but if they've done it with the kind of commitment it would take to really advance their roster, they should be removed from the game.

I don't see rollbacks as a viable solution. Too complicated, too forgiving.

GurlBYE

OJSP wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

For there to be enough of a change in percentages to change draw it'd need to be higher then 4 or 5 percent. It'd need to be around 20-30-ish, and on top of that, the percentages are once again, not percentages for everyone, or assigned on an individual basis.

If they advertise 10%, some people can hit 0 and others hit 20 and the average would still be 10%.
Once you understand that you'd see that it's take an astronomical amount of covers from 1 person, or a ton of players when you consider the playerbase at large.


Probability isn't set in stone and its not a machine thats saying 10% of the player base will get X.

It's saying on every draw, there is a bag of marvel balls, there is a 10% chance of it being X Y or Z.

In a vault the ball is removed, in a normal draw, the ball isn't. It remains 10 percent.
It doesn't mean 10% of your draws will be X Y or Z, it means that if you drew infinitely your draws AND OTHERS would average around 10% altogether.

So the 40 Legendaries you got don't need to hit 10%. It'd be nice if they did, but thats not how it works.

Using your theory.. If 1 exploiter is getting 100% 5*s from their Legendary Tokens.. For each cover that player gets, 9 other players have lost their chance. (because (100% + 9x0%)/10 = 10%)

That's a lot of players being cheated on an important cover. (Even their other Alliance members can be affected by this)

GurlBYE wrote:

If that were the case you should expect a 4 star for every 1,000 or so standards.

Why is that? the odds for Standard tokens have never been published, so how did you came up with 0.1%?

#1 its not a theory. Its probability in how I've learned it in every instance it's been taught to me in schooling and beyond.

#2 The number was random and an example.

Using your theory.. If 1 exploiter is getting 100% 5*s from their Legendary Tokens.. For each cover that player gets, 9 other players have lost their chance. (because (100% + 9x0%)/10 = 10%)

Isn't how probability works.
First That is too small a sample size.

Second You can't selectively take random players to make the numbers work out how you want.

The draws are not based on a collective vault. (unless there is some fantastically sophisticated coding going on that shift probabilities for every draw {hint there isn't or this exploit wouldn't be possible because the server would need more checks}{hint2 the listed percentages wouldn't be displayable or would update)
A new player getting a 4 star from a heroic doesn't lower another players chances.

A friend drawing a StarLord from a legendary before me does not lower my chances of starlord If I draw after him.

A lot of this forum operates on the assumption that the probability is entirely based on 1 person, or that they are tracked and observable at small numbers.

If this was stated by a dev somewhere fine, but it's not quite how it works.

_Vitto

DayvBang wrote:

I like free stuff, and if I get some freebies for not being among the minority of players abusing this bug I certainly won't refuse them, but there's really only one kind of compensation I'm interested in: knowing that the players abusing this exploit have been sandboxed away from the honest majority.

I'm not utterly draconian -- I don't care if someone who tried it once or twice but decided it wasn't worth the effort gets punished -- but if they've done it with the kind of commitment it would take to really advance their roster, they should be removed from the game.

I don't see rollbacks as a viable solution. Too complicated, too forgiving.

Everybody love free stuff. My point was that we cannot be satisfied with some tokens as a compensation, and just close our eyes after all this has happened for 2 years. We know nothing, we cannot establish a proper compensation.

I want to know the amount of the minority you talk about, and I want to be sure that the abusers are punished once and for all (as you do).

GurlBYE

Phaserhawk wrote:

Interesting how this thread has gone from serves the cheaters right to anger at D3.

Both fight and Malcrof make good points. What's being done and man I wish I could have.

Having slept on this, I have come to what I feel a fair compensation and moving forward type of view

To the re-rollers, no sandboxed penalty but you are rolled back to at least pre Legendary token roster or perhaps a little more. You are not as much to blame and your cash flow is why this wasn't done sooner

To D3. An apology and the real reason. Plus a legendary token for every $20 a player has spent on your game, a heroic for every $5 for all those who didn't cheat

My faith would be restored and wallet open again

Whats funny is I could care less about his opinion on whether he or anyone else wanting to cheat. And I refuse to judge people who want to in a game. I'm so far behind the normal meta that I'm just staring at people fighting to get further in the distance while the devs continue to add more to make ruffle more feathers there. This along with everything they added, just slightly widened the already wide gap.

The people who did this likely paid money in one way or another so they are likely in a very awkward place.

I know d3 isn't exactly the type to give things away for free, especially when this will lose them some future dollars regardless of their choice.

Just btw guys, malcrof is a normal player, he's not paid to moderate here nor does he get anything from the dev team, nor is his 'moral fiber' weaker for playing a video game.
Comparing his ideals to trump just shows a lack of the severity of things in real life for you, and a frightening disconnect for you, not him.

Ideally he wouldn't want to have his draws reward more 4 and 5 stars (weird when you don't demonize the actual topic at hand right?) but alas he seems to be like the rest of us in a game that currently makes paying to advance the only assured way.

DrStrange-616

GurlBYE wrote:

Whats funny is I could care less about his opinion on whether he or anyone else wanting to cheat. And I refuse to judge people who want to in a game.

I have no problem judging people who cheat/steal. It's wrong. It. Just. Is. These are not Jean Valjeans stealing loaves of bread to feed their sister's families. These are people looking to scam the game and their fellow players. It stinks on ice.

The people who did this likely paid money in one way or another so they are likely in a very awkward place.

Not awkward at all if you have ethics.

I know d3 isn't exactly the type to give things away for free, especially when this will lose them some future dollars regardless of their choice.

Free stuff to the non-cheaters feels like a payoff for silence. But we shall see what happens. D3 has shown they are rather tone deaf regarding these things, so I don't expect anything - admission or compensation (not that I feel that's right way to go).

Just btw guys, malcrof is a normal player, he's not paid to moderate here nor does he get anything from the dev team, nor is his 'moral fiber' weaker for playing a video game.

This is disingenuous. No one is accusing him of having weak moral fiber for playing a video game. We all play, but we don't all cheat and we don't all feel it's okay to. Apparently, he does.

Comparing his ideals to trump just shows a lack of the severity of things in real life for you, and a frightening disconnect for you, not him.

Trump is in a class by himself. This subject might make people angry, make them feel betrayed, but it's nothing on the scale of things --> out there.

Ideally he wouldn't want to have his draws reward more 4 and 5 stars (weird when you don't demonize the actual topic at hand right?) but alas he seems to be like the rest of us in a game that currently makes paying to advance the only assured way.

Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China. We all wish odds were better. We all wish we could progress faster. But not all of us are willing to cheat to do it. He admits he probably would. Others have. D3 knew they were and let them. And here we are.

GuntherBlobel

Malcrof wrote:

Here is my take on this exploit... 99% of the people i see are posting because:

A. they are jealous [...]
B. Sadness because [...] they didn't get a chance to use it [...]
C. Someone who cheated kicked their tinykitty in pvp [...]

I've hadn't posted prior to this because I'm more bewildered by this situation rather than outraged. However, the above post has brought me in.

I remember when this exploit was brought to the attention of the Devs/Forum with clear instructions on how to do it (a video no less). I remember the same poster complaining how it hadn't being fixed despite being a known issue. I guess I've know about this exploit over a year now and I haven't used it. I assume that many of the regulars on this Forum are in exactly the same situation. So, the above comments aren't true in addition to being unnecessarily provocative. So here I am posting why I am disappointed: it's not A., B., or C. and I doubt that I'm part of some rarified 1%.

Reason D. is excruciatingly simple: fairness. The Devs always always point out that they play the game just like everyone else because they know damn well that fairness is important to people. Preventing cheating is essential to their credibility. I wan't affected by all this, but this issue makes me want to play MPQ less, regardless. I legitimately feel bad for players who payed $1000s to get access to 5* content, knowing that others are playing by another set of rules. That feeling is compounded by the knowledge that this was a known issue that the Devs have not fixed in all this time.

I'm similarly disappointed with the Galactus force quit issue. They need to maintain credibility or people will go play something that seems more fair. Jealousy and sour grapes won't be the only reason that people quit buying.

Pongie

Just heard about this but I don't know the exact exploit so correct me if I'm wrong. I assumed the exploit only allowed you to re-roll the token in hopes of getting the better rewards (gold for standard and 5* for legendary etc)? But it doesn't actually let you get specific covers.

If this is the case, I think it's time to remove the jackpot from the tokens and just have tier specific tokens. Bronze - 1*, Standard/Silver for 2*, Gold for 3* and legendary/Purple for 5*. That will eliminate the ability to re-roll as you're just going to be getting a random cover of that tier anyway.

Why no token for 4*? Because the placement rewards should simply be specific 4* covers like before. Top placement, 1k & 1.3k progress rewards, DDQ clash of titans etc. This will help 4* transition much better than the random pull.

Then how do you actually earn the legendary tokens? Have a month long gauntlet that gives out one for completing it, every month. If this is too slow, perhaps leave one in the various vaults for those feeling lucky. Then you can give out tacos for the whales who purchase 40-packs.

Not sure how the Command Points should be done but I'll say the 700 cost to get a specific 5* can remain. Just adjust the 25 point to something that lets you get a specific 4*. Don't use the legendary token here. Plenty of threads, discussing this already.

Finally, all 20 ISO rewards should be replace with the Bronze token. This will help new players progress much quicker as well as increase the amount of ISO earned for everyone else. This will also have a small effect on roster slots, as no one really need to keep a full roster of all 1*s and 2*s. With the bronze and silver tokens being readily available, players can rotate them as necessary.

I believe all these changes would require minimal coding effort as they are simply a rework of prizes and odds. A new types of token should not be too hard either.

wuweird

Did anyone else notice the weasel words in the official announcement (emphasis mine):

We are aware of an increase in players using an exploit involving Legendary tokens.

This seems to be tacit admission that they've known about the exploit and didn't care that it was being used until general awareness hit a critical level and threatened to scare all the whales away.

fnedude

re: posting offenders

I'd **LOVE** to see a list, but I can understand how someone upstream said that they might sue because of defamation. We, as legit players, should be at least given a ROM (rough order of magnitude) how many people we doing this. Was it 100, 1000, 5000, 10K, etc. Just how wide-spread did it finally take for D3 to get off it's third point? (But i'd guess that'd be embarrassing, so it won't happen though).

But as a legit player, who's seen so many worthless draws, and so many players get what they wanted by cheating... It's frustrating as all hell knowing that they possibly cheat, and should be "probably cheated". But can't know for sure because names can't be named. So I guess now I'll (and I guess others), will just have to guess, "Hmm, awesome roster dude/dudette, guess you cheat" for anyone that has an awesome roster.

puppychow

fnedude wrote:

re: posting offenders

I'd **LOVE** to see a list, but I can understand how someone upstream said that they might sue because of defamation. We, as legit players, should be at least given a ROM (rough order of magnitude) how many people we doing this. Was it 100, 1000, 5000, 10K, etc. Just how wide-spread did it finally take for D3 to get off it's third point? (But i'd guess that'd be embarrassing, so it won't happen though).

But as a legit player, who's seen so many worthless draws, and so many players get what they wanted by cheating... It's frustrating as all hell knowing that they possibly cheat, and should be "probably cheated". But can't know for sure because names can't be named. So I guess now I'll (and I guess others), will just have to guess, "Hmm, awesome roster dude/dudette, guess you cheat" for anyone that has an awesome roster.

Let's tackle the second paragraph first. According to the latest Forbes survey (March 2015), there are 1,826 USD billionaires in the world. And it's quite possible there maybe someone from this list who plays MPQ. So a person with multiple 450s on his roster isn't necessarily cheating via reroll exploit to get that awesome roster. The owner of the account could be a billionaire who blew big bucks buying LTs.

I'm not sure a ROM would be meaningful in the way that you want it to be. I think we can safely assume that a person wouldn't try to get 450s on his roster unless he is playing competitive pvp. A pve player would be at a severe disadvantage due to scaling at 395 constantly. So the focus should be on pvp events. Did players obtain 450s via the reroll exploit and obtain an unfair competitive advantage in pvp play? If D3 is able to identify and sandbox such exploiters in time to remove them from season rankings, I think it would go a long way toward mitigating the effects of these exploiters on rule abiding pvp players; the guys shelling big $$$ to field competitive teams for pvp care A LOT about their individual and alliance season placements. By removing the cheaters from the scoreboard, it would restore, to some extent, the legit players to what their rankings should have been in the absence of these cheaters.

GothicKratos

Okay, so, first, I'm going to touch on this side conversation real fast, then reply to the reply to my last response.

First and foremost, the joke edit was exactly that; it was a joke. It was completely harmless and if you want to get offended by a harmless edit, well, I think Tumblr is calling your name. It was also my idea, so get mad at mean ole me. Malcrof said something on Line about someone PMing him about the mention of him in this thread, and I said, having saw it previously, it would be pretty funny if you edited the post or split it off as a joke, since I assumed the jab was mostly in jest. You're getting more upset about it than the person that actually got the edit. Sorry I tried to encourage something we could have maybe laughed off, I forgot we've all about the pitchforks. Next time I'll be sure not to be light hearted around here (since that's what I'm known for, right?! ). Or maybe I'll do it next time.

Secondly, even if I don't agree with how he phrased himself (his post was mightily embellished imo), and some of the accusations (well any of them really were unnecessary), I find it hard not to agree with the sentiments of his post. 100% of games have cheaters. 100% of games cannot stop this. Activision can't stop this. Blizzard can't stop this. Bungie can't stop this. Sony can't even stop hackers from brute forcing their servers....twice. I agree that people compulsively want the easy way out. I agree with that wholeheartedly. If there's two options and one's the "right way" and one's the "easy way" and they met the same ends, people will choose the easy way most of the time. People avoid cheating in games for the same reason normal people avoid stealing; they're afraid of the repercussions. Not because it's wrong, but because they don't want to get banned. Yes, some people are Almighty and resist the urge to cheat a digital good simply because of the virtue of the matter, but I gotta say you're probably kidding yourself right on over to Pirate Bay. That's just my opinion of society. It's not a reflection of any individuals and if you choose to take it as such you probably need to look into that yourself.

Thirdly, none of that matters. He's allowed to have an opinion. You're allowed to have an opinion. I don't mind if you want to debate whether or not he's right, even though it's a pointless debate of morality, but there's no debate on whether or not he has the right to an opinion (and to voice said opinion). We do not work for D3 or Demuirge. We do not represent them in any fashion. We are volunteers. If Malcrof took it upon himself to, say, move a specific user's posts around a lot, now that, that would be a poor reflection on himself and the moderation staff, because that is him in his "Demuirge Uniform", so to speak, and that would not be okay, but when we're writing posts, especially those containing our own opinions, those are not representations of anyone but ourselves.

Going forward, anyone deciding to personally attack Malcrof because of his differing opinion will receive a warning from me. Feel free to tell him he is wrong, that his post was in poor taste, and why you think so, but personal attacks are not tolerable. [EDIT]And for the "well he's attacking people first!"/"if a non-mod was doing this..." his post was in the same vein as the type of threads that call out Alliances for cooperating on Line or those that try to vilify buyer's alliances - you're allowed to say you think things vague groups of people are doing are immoral/wrong/whatever - you're not allowed to say Malcrof's an ****.

DrStrange-616 wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

DrStrange-616 wrote:

Why do you assume people weren't using it to game the system before legendaries? If I understand it correctly, it wasn't hard to do and you could easily just fish for 3s or 4s you needed, again and again.

It is really easy, but getting a desirable pull is umpteenth times harder because the pull pool is much larger. People use exploits because they are lazy; they want a quick fix. They don't want to spend seven hours rerolling Torchs, Yelenas, IMs, and Things to try and pull something useful. This is exponentially so since cheating otherwise is insanely easy.

The only upside is it "wasn't detectable", and if you're lucky, twelve hours later, you'll have a few good 3*s partially covered.

Think of how many times people will do a node for one lousy command point. I think you are vastly underestimating the lure of the "possibility" of getting what you want need. It was easy enough to do, so people did it. They could watch tv and do it. It's time consuming, but people sink oodles of time into this game for less.

My tinfoil-hatted head says this was used moderately and gave some an unfair advantage. D3 knew but these shills/rabbits didn't hurt their bottom line because players had to try to keep up with them, but spending actual ducats. Once the cheaters started exploiting the expensive 5*s, they cared and it became obvious to casual observers because it's so hard to get them legitimately.

Talked about this a little on Line, and it was mentioned in this thread by Stax too, I think? But the only token that was really worth it to reroll on was those 4* reveal PvPs, because they had really high draw rates for usually desirable covers.

I don't disagree that there were likely a small pocket of the community that was using this to their advantage this whole times, but I don't personally feel like it would have been impactful most of the time. What're we rerolling for exactly? JG, HB, Bobby? They've really damn good, but they're not meta warping - at least not in the magnitude 5*s are. Prior to LTokens it was a lot of effort for not exactly a lot of return, which is why I don't think very many people were using this exploit prior to their release. Maybe some people did it for Sentry? He was pretty impactful. Maybe they did it for HB when he came out? He was pretty impact then. I doubt it, but if they did, the number was likely so small and their individual impact on the game's ecosystem was likely so small that it was a non-factor in the long haul.

It's a big deal right now because a max cover partially leveled 5*, let alone more than one, is one Hell of a scarecrow on defense, and you're going to be eating other teams like they're seed teams. Nothing else has been this strong in the history of MPQ. Sentry, pre-nerf Magneto, "-buster" teams were extremely effective on offensive, but they were always pretty manageable on defense. 5*s aren't. They're a new breed.

Personally, what I don't get is why this wasn't patched going into the LToken's release. If we're still assuming that dev's were actively watching this exploit at that time, you would assume they'd want to patch up this hole before such a good token was released. Personally? I think that the bug was very far off their radar at that point and they didn't realize the implications (or didn't think it would get as widespread as we think it did/as impactful as it was). If it were me in Demuirge's shoes, prior to LTokens, I probably wouldn't have cared much the exploit was there until it's actually impacting the game's ecosystem. If someone wants to game the system to get a stupid Loki cover, go for it. It becomes a problem when either a) a crapload of people start using it so it floats the economy with covers or b) something comes out that's incredibly strong and getting it becomes an inheritable advantage.

Now, don't get me wrong, having a max covered dude for PvE Essential or for their PvP is an advantage, but I personally don't feel like it's incredibly measurable in the grand scheme of things.

Bottom line; I think these guys should all get boxed because they cheated. It was an obviously unintended interaction they had to go way out of their way to do. The only leeway I think there should be is with users with low recurrences (say under five?) because there are a lot of player's that do legitimately play between devices, so this might happen on occasion accidentally....but not enough times to cover something. If anything, personally I think we should be harder on the whales out of principle. You don't rob a bank and not get arrested because you paid a car loan with them.

I don't honestly think we, as legitimate players, deserve some kind of compensation, but all things considered, it would be pretty nice to see a couple LTokens/CoPs and/or a bag 'o' Hero Points as an offering of good will either. It's a small gesture that would go a long way.

scottee

People are justified in getting outraged, but you're getting outraged at the wrong thing.

One might seem like it's going to break the forums, but the other might snowball into the demise of the competitive player base.

GothicKratos

OJSP wrote:

Personally, I think if we don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.

....but that's censorship! Oppression! Fascism!

Todzilla

I don't post on here ever. I'm on day 590 and i think this is my second post. One of those long time listener first time caller things, but i had to voice my opinion on this.

In regards to the whole mod thing hardcore garners know forum rules but the casual consumers may not. People are kind of dumb nowadays. But i can understand where someone looking for some tips on google would click onto a link that directs them to d3go.com might assume that a mod represents the company when the name of the company is in the website title. That explains that debate and why it began in the first place so move onto the bigger point.

Consumer confidence. As far as this game is concerned is at an all time low. Someone above me said that this should have been fixed before releasing something as powerful as a 5* legendary token and THIS IS THE BIG DEAL. This is the straw that will break many a camels back. I was already going to wait until January to see what this new cover trade system or whatever would bring us and if it helped me i stay if it is a waste my days are over, but this exploit announcement and the fact that they knew about it since practically the beginning of the game and still released the legendary token without fixing said exploit has crushed consumer confidence in the company as a whole. What exploits will this new system bring us that will be swept under the rug.

And they just released mtg:pq and i was enjoying that game. But my consumer confidence in d3go is at an all time low right now that i want to uninstall that game right now as well. This is the message the devs need to hear right now if they view the forums. This will bleed into mtg:pq and you will lose a huge chunk of multiple year players and purchasers.

I don't know what the answer is here to regain consumer confidence or if its possible at this point, but in the future whether it's with d3go or another company do not release any gamebreaking content if you know that an unfixed 2 year old exploit can cause an unfair advantage among players. Players that have invested alot of time to earn a single legendary token and now we look back and figure why. Sure those players will be sandboxed but what about the 3 months or whatever of time we have all invested. How much higher could i have placed without those guys in the mix? You guys took time away from Fallout 4 and that's saying alot.

Pongie

Todzilla wrote:

And they just released mtg:pq and i was enjoying that game. But my consumer confidence in d3go is at an all time low right now that i want to uninstall that game right now as well. This is the message the devs need to hear right now if they view the forums. This will bleed into mtg:pq and you will lose a huge chunk of multiple year players and purchasers.

You do realise that even though mtg:pq is released by the same publisher, it is in fact, developed by a different studio. So technically speaking, any bugs or issues that are existing/fixed in one doesn't really reflect on the other.