Important Announcement: Legendary Tokens Exploit

Linkster79

Dauthi wrote:

If a store forgets or doesn't care to lock down an expensive item, making it easy to steal, does that give you the right to steal it? If (this is assuming your assumptions are correct) they turn a blind eye while you steal it, does that confirm that it is ok, or is it still stealing?

"Everyone was doing it," "It was so easy," or "they didn't care" does not constitute innocence. There are many people who knew but didn't participate, and so many that didn't know what was happening at all.

Comparing digital items to real world items is always a minefield. Ever borrow a CD from a friend and upload it to your own PC and or MP3 player then give the disc back? Still technically theft!

Dwarfsteel wrote:

Yes the devs should be ashamed for leaving this unchecked for so long and I would hope they do something to make amends (wouldn't hold my breath) but it does not excuse those who are taking advantage of it. It's not like anyone of them thought that this was the game "working as intended". They knew they were doing something wrong and continued to do it. If nothing is done they risk alienating the rest of the player base which, at least to me, is a far greater risk to the health and longevity of this game. Who would continue to support a game that does nothing to protect fair play?

Before the release of Legendary tokens many people weren't utilising this exploit as it was worth it with Heroics because chances are it would only yield a 2* character, now there is 4* or higher it makes it more appealing. If the anti cheater team were serious they would have to go back and ban everyone who utilised this exploit since day 1 even if it were just for one token.

Don't be fooled this isn't about fair play or for the health and longevity of the game, this is about money, pure unadulterated money. If they weren't seen to be doing something then the whales would stop spending. Let's talk about health and longevity of the game, lack of new story events, lack of the 20iso reward issue, lack of fixing the exploding crit tile fix, lack of action regarding story scaling, lack of fixing match making in versus, lack of rebalancing older characters. Fixing all of those will improve the health and longevity of the game but will not affect player spending habits.

Howzat

franckynight wrote:

To be honest D3 must be secretly grateful to those guys.. I know, i and many high end players have opened our wallets way beyond what we envisioned first.. But seeing those 5* in all those rosters pushed us to invest to stay ahead of the curve.. Should there not be that exploit i would not have spent that much..

One could argue D3 themselves have exploited their genuine paying customers.

The fact threads are being deleted starts leading me to think their behaviour is more unethical than incompentant.

I really don't care what happens to those that used the exploit, what matters now is the actions of D3 in proving to me, their customer, i should continue to invest time and money in their product.

We've seen more than a few questionable errors or changes in the past but this could be the final straw for many.

NewMcG

Dauthi wrote:

If a store forgets or doesn't care to lock down an expensive item, making it easy to steal, does that give you the right to steal it? If (this is assuming your assumptions are correct) they turn a blind eye while you steal it, does that confirm that it is ok, or is it still stealing?

"Everyone was doing it," "It was so easy," or "they didn't care" does not constitute innocence. There are many people who knew but didn't participate, and so many that didn't know what was happening at all.

Except this isn't "stealing". It's manipulating the system to get a better result than intended. It isn't like taking an item from a store. It's like finding a loophole in "triple coupon day" that lets you legitimately get an item for free. Until that loophole is fixed in the store system, it's going to be fair game to the consumers to take advantage of it. (Although a store will certainly close that loophole hastily, unlike the apparent close to two years this has allegedly been known.)

I'm not defending anyone who's been using this exploit, as it sucks for the rest of us, but it isn't "stealing", and I do understand the counterpoint of "well, if it's been around and the devs didn't feel like it was worth the trouble of fixing it, it's just taking advantage of a loophole, or in this case, glitchy coding".

lukewin

Dauthi wrote:

I blew the whistle right before this, glad to see it helped, even if I got a warning from it. Hacks/exploits running amok will ruin a game, and putting the dirty laundry out in the open puts the spotlight on the problem forcing action.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36126&p=450758#p450758

I would chalk this up to coincidence. Accusing someone of being a cheater (like you did) is one thing, someone posting and bringing attention to the exploit that was likely used to gain 5* from Legendary Tokens (like the OP of the deleted thread) is another thing. So I wouldn't go patting myself on the back just yet. Oh, I guess it's too late for that.

Dauthi wrote:

Vindicated doesn't even cover it. I was ridiculed, warned, and and everyone who pushed against me upvoted, and I was absolutely right. Some even PMed me talking about how they believed these guys were legit. Practicality and reason went right out the window, for whatever reason.

Don't worry, I am positive there is no rule about linking locked threads. Then again, I didn't know that I would get tossed warning for addressing a serious and obvious issue. I quote Fight4thedream in my PM why I was warned: "You were given a warning for posting a thread making baseless accusations of rampant hacking." I'm not in the loop, I don't know that me accidentally leaving the last piece of their alliance was that bad, but I do know the average player couldn't get anything from it. It's impossible by searching the term in game.

But, you may have a point, sir.

What OJSP was trying to tell you was to alter your original post/picture in the locked thread, since that's one of the reasons it got locked in the first place. Your thread got also locked for another reason, because there is a process for reporting cheaters. You thought it better to go another route and the mods decided to go with the established process. Did anyone actually PM you or did they just respond to your initial PMs, like I did, after your thread got locked? You still believe that you're absolutely right, but that's a baseless claim as well, since there's no proof of it. In your locked thread, you offer no proof / a base for your claim, that the player was cheating/hacking. Calling out the mod by name, probably isn't good form either, and you've done that as well. Italicizing accidentally in your post, alludes to it being intentional. The average player couldn't get anything from it, but the average player doesn't read the forums. The average forum reader, probably could put together the clues you accidentally left.

And if it is true, that the person you accused of cheating is taking a break and not sandboxed, then your "whistleblowing" was nothing more than a false accusation. Keep at it though, even a broken clock is right 2 times a day.

Cypr3ss

Linkster79 wrote:

using exploits is certainly one way and is vastly different to cheating

This came up in 'the thread that was deleted'... you used to be able to view it here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36483&p=454227#p454227 (that's a link directly to my post I wanted to show a friend... guess how that worked out )

So I'll explain it again here for those that missed it, using exploits is cheating.

As a reminder, to cheat is to: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Further to this, Shield Hopping is not an exploit, and the "winfinite combo" is also not an exploit. These two are examples of utilising game mechanics to your advantage, not exploits.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

puppychow

Linkster79 wrote:

Comparing digital items to real world items is always a minefield. Ever borrow a CD from a friend and upload it to your own PC and or MP3 player then give the disc back? Still technically theft!

It IS theft. There is no technically about it. To be fair, Demiurge isn't the only publisher with an issue re: player exploits costing revenue.

Part of the reason why I quit playing Archeage, despite being a founder, was because of how Trion failed to mind the store. There were duplication exploits where valuable, hard to obtain items were easily recreated, giving these exploiters an extreme advantage comparable to max 5 rosters in this game. Player accounts were also hacked and in game purchases were made on these stolen accounts (setting off alerts at financial companies); the hackers then sold the digital goods for real money and if the player was stupid enough to use a debit card for the account then he's out of the $$$ spent on these unauthorized purchases.

Add: this is why I passed on beta testing Devilian, because Trion lost my trust and I will not touch any more of their games.

Stanley71

It's similar to another "exploit" I had more than a year ago:
I usually play mpq on an iPad. But I prefer to pay via iPhone...
I bought a Stark salary with my iPhone and recieved 20k HP!
Switched back to iPad and all HPs were gone
I took me more than a month to get my HP!
I'm sure that D3 must have known this exploit!

Konman

Linkster79 wrote:

<snip> If the anti cheater team were serious they would have to go back and ban everyone who utilised this exploit since day 1 even if it were just for one token. <snip>

First, I would hope most of us are on the "anti-cheater team", and yes, if you cheated, you should be banned. There is no, "He cheated worse than I did" defense. You did or you didn't willingly subvert the rules of the game, treat the categories accordingly.

Unknown

Personally I am glad that D3 has decided to take action on this matter.

There are many players who spend a lot of money on this game in order to stay competitive and thus it is necessary to ensure that those spending on the game have surety that the playing field is level when it comes to draw rates etc.

With respect to the current case of events, in terms of the exploit, if D3 were not to fix the problem I believe many competitive alliances with players who did not partake in the cheating would immediately withdraw from playing and quit. How would you feel if you spent annually 5-10k + on MPQ only to find out the guy beside you spent a fraction of that and had an unfair advantage from utilising an exploit. Would you feel comfortable dropping a further investment of $$$. Absolutely no. The whole point of this exercise is to ensure that the playing fields is level - effort or expenditure = increased chance of being competitive within the game.

I highly commend D3 for being so rigorous in taking action on this issue. It sends the right message.

A Concerned Citizen

lukewin

ConcernedCitizen wrote:

Personally I am glad that D3 has decided to take action on this matter.

In case anyone didn't see your original thread that pointed out that people were using the exploit on LTs to get 5* before it got deleted, they probably wouldn't know it was you that posted it. So just so you get credit and the upvotes for it, I'm pointing it out. Credit should go where it is due. Some sandboxed users would also probably like to give blame where it is due too, but I wouldn't sweat that if I was you.

Ruinate

Cypr3ss wrote:

Ruinate wrote:

Making it known that there is an exploit was a good thing. He/she didn't exactly teach the public how to exploit, but left plenty of clues. When people learn how to cheat, some will cheat, that is dumb.. Some will try it out of curiosity and they could get caught in a ban. The devs know how the exploit works. They don't need to be taught on the forums.

Fixed your post for you. You're confusing dissemination of information with the actions of others due to that information.

And honestly, I'm not sure the devs didn't need to be taught on the forums, because prior to this point in time nothing has been done to resolve the issue.

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

That is dumb too. I agree but I'm not confusing anything. I am just saying the reason why threads are being deleted. Any thread or post that shows how to exploit is going to get deleted. I'm sure part of the reason why the 2014 thread was deleted was because they are embarrassed of their incompetence, but it's more because it's basically letting everybody know that using 2 is better than 1 (hope you get what I'm saying, trying not to be hypocritical here). I've been around the block a few times and this is how it always goes. Exploit goes public, people go into detail, threads close, people rage, fixes and ban waves go live, rise and repeat.

Cable_eel

Linkster79 wrote:

If players have been altering source code via the use of hacks or other methods to their own gain then they should be banned. If players have been using an exploit then it is the devs fault for allowing such code to exist, especially in this case an exploit that has been known to exist for a fair while.

The wording of David HiFi Moore's statement indicates that they have known for a while that this exploit exists and up until know not enough people were using it for the development team to use vital resources fixing it and they were willing to turn a blind eye. Now that a token exists that assure at least a 4* character more players are willing to use this exploit. In any competitive game some players will do whatever they can to get an edge, using exploits is certainly one way and is vastly different to cheating, it is making the most of the tools available to them.

All those who utilised this exploit should have their game left untouched and intact while the developers should chastise themselves for leaving such a thing left unchecked for so long.

It strikes me that this exploit is not so different from the Galactus exploit used by pretty much all the top alliances who completed the first Galactus event. There was no punishment for that. Of course, that resulted in a few covers and didn't potentially break the game for a few people the way this one has. I'd favor a rollback instead of sandboxing, but give them their money back if you do that.

nwman

cable_eel wrote:

Linkster79 wrote:

If players have been altering source code via the use of hacks or other methods to their own gain then they should be banned. If players have been using an exploit then it is the devs fault for allowing such code to exist, especially in this case an exploit that has been known to exist for a fair while.

The wording of David HiFi Moore's statement indicates that they have known for a while that this exploit exists and up until know not enough people were using it for the development team to use vital resources fixing it and they were willing to turn a blind eye. Now that a token exists that assure at least a 4* character more players are willing to use this exploit. In any competitive game some players will do whatever they can to get an edge, using exploits is certainly one way and is vastly different to cheating, it is making the most of the tools available to them.

All those who utilised this exploit should have their game left untouched and intact while the developers should chastise themselves for leaving such a thing left unchecked for so long.

It strikes me that this exploit is not so different from the Galactus exploit used by pretty much all the top alliances who completed the first Galactus event. There was no punishment for that. Of course, that resulted in a few covers and didn't potentially break the game for a few people the way this one has. I'd favor a rollback instead of sandboxing, but give them their money back if you do that.

There is a mechanism to punish you for game crashing / force quitting. This exploit was pointed out as far back as feb 2014 and no fix or anything.

I think devs realized galactus 1 was too hard and they imo should have given rewards to all that played not penalized anyone.

I imagine this exploit has been used for every new release 4* pvp where only the new 4* is available. Possibly on 3* ones also. Then I'm sure some used it on all heroics or better.

nwman

OJSP wrote:

cable_eel wrote:

I'd favor a rollback instead of sandboxing, but give them their money back if you do that.

My suggestion in the deleted thread was actually to put them all in the same bracket, so they only play against each other all the time. But, that was before someone else mentioned the idea about rolling back their roster to one day before the Legendary tokens were introduced and Silver Surfer was released.

I like the idea of a rollback too now. However, I think refunding the money beats the point of trying to punish players for the exploitation.

I'd be okay if their bought tokens/packs were all returned, after all the characters they obtained with this method are deleted from their roster. That way, they would lose their in game progress and are still penalised by losing the amount of iso spent to level all these characters.

I'm wondering what refunds would be given. You play this game in iOS so you can say apple I played this game but due to an in game bug they deleted my account. I want a refund this isn't fair etc etc. No hacking was used so not being exactly sure of the wording of terms this makes me wonder.

fight4thedream

Dauthi wrote:

OJSP wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I blew the whistle right before this, glad to see it helped, even if I got a warning from it. Hacks/exploits running amok will ruin a game, and putting the dirty laundry out in the open puts the spotlight on the problem forcing action.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36126&p=450758#p450758

Dude.. I know you're probably feeling vindicated now.. but considering you've received a warning before.. perhaps you could edit the picture a bit and re-upload it?

I know, as far as I'm aware (without out of game communication), that player is nowhere to be seen at the moment (at least on top of my leaderboards).. But, it would be a shame to get into trouble due to something silly like this.

Vindicated doesn't even cover it. I was ridiculed, warned, and and everyone who pushed against me upvoted, and I was absolutely right. Some even PMed me talking about how they believed these guys were legit. Practicality and reason went right out the window, for whatever reason.

Don't worry, I am positive there is no rule about linking locked threads. Then again, I didn't know that I would get tossed warning for addressing a serious and obvious issue. I quote Fight4thedream in my PM why I was warned: "You were given a warning for posting a thread making baseless accusations of rampant hacking." I'm not in the loop, I don't know that me accidentally leaving the last piece of their alliance was that bad, but I do know the average player couldn't get anything from it. It's impossible by searching the term in game.

But, you may have a point, sir.

Dauthi,

I understand why you feel upset but I am going to ask you to try not to make this a personal matter. Yes, it appears your hunch was correct but as stated previously the post you made in regards to your suspicion was inappropriate. For those curious about the matter, you are free to click on the link provided in the quote above. I issued you a warning because that's what warnings are for: to give official notice that you have engaged in inappropriate behavior on the forum. I decided to not issue you a 1 day ban for the image provided because I believed that it was an honest mistake and I still do. Perhaps I should have removed the image myself but since the player in question has apparently left that alliance I will leave it there to serve as a clear example of what not to do when posting images of a person's roster. If you still feel a wrong decision was made about the matter, please contact Hi-Fi.

Also for clarity sake, I will once again state that if you suspect someone is cheating please contact customer support here: http://www.d3go.com/mpq-support. If you haven't received a response from CS, you can also PM Hi-Fi or IceIX and ask them to look into the issue.

The reason we frown on hacking posts in general is because they breed suspicion and false accusations amongst the community which is frankly not in a position to pass judgement on the issue. Those of you that have been on the forum long enough will remember there was a time when one of the top alliances in the game was often the target of such claims until finally one of its members publicly revealed that yes, they happen to spend a significant amount of money on the game.

With that said, ConcernedCitizen took an acceptable route to shining light on the issue. They made their post in the bugs and technical issues forum since that's basically what the problem is about. They also avoided mentioning any player or alliance names in their post. The thread was removed because it outlined the process in which one could use the exploit which I believe is reasonable but ConcernedCitizen will not be warned or punished, and I feel if anything they should be commended for coming forward with legitimate information that affects the game.

But please be aware, if you do make such posts that outline exploits they will be removed and if it is determined that you posted such information with less than honorable intentions, you will be banned. This is not to discourage people with genuine concern for the game's integrity from providing information on exploits, by all means do so, but just be clear with your intentions for providing such information and know that if you do choose to post it on the forum it won't remain there for long but will be seen by the people who should know about it, the developers.

JamesV

If this was known about for ~2 years, I sort of struggle with the idea of "when does an exploit become just business as usual and part of the game."

And if this was known about for that long, taking action now doesn't really fix the tacit consent that allowed the playing field to be slanted for that amount of time. I'm not saying that people who used the exploit shouldn't be sandboxed, but this feels more like a saving face sandboxing then a "we are cleaning up the neighborhood."

Stax the Foyer

JamesV wrote:

If this was known about for ~2 years, I sort of struggle with the idea of "when does an exploit become just business as usual and part of the game."

And if this was known about for that long, taking action now doesn't really fix the tacit consent that allowed the playing field to be slanted for that amount of time. I'm not saying that people who used the exploit shouldn't be sandboxed, but this feels more like a saving face sandboxing then a "we are cleaning up the neighborhood."

It's more pragmatic than that. It's a keep-people-willing-to-spend-actual-money sandbox (or rollback, or character removal, or whatever form this takes). It has to do two things:

1) Keep people willing to spend actual money on the game. This isn't a subscription-based game, or a game for purchase. If they're lenient here, they run the risk that people's wallets are going to pucker up, or wander elsewhere. And a bad reputation on this type of issue can and will follow them to different games.

2) Provide a scarecrow to keep people in line. If it takes them this long to address a known exploit, and in the interim they build a key new feature on the same system that allows that exploit, there's a serious risk that there are other avenues that can be exploited in the future, and take a long time to fix. If they come down hard here, they can minimize future exploiting during the period it takes to address them, because people know that they're risking serious consequences. It won't stop everyone, but it will stop some.

I don't think there's any saving face to be done here. That ship has sailed, and it's covered in egg and full of crow. This is damage control.

Arctic_One

This MUST be a ban of 100% of the accounts who have used the exploit even once. Anything less is an admission by the devs to their paying customers that cheating is tolerated.

puppychow

Stax the Foyer wrote:

I don't think there's any saving face to be done here. That ship has sailed, and it's covered in egg and full of crow. This is damage control.

Brilliantly said. This is my assessment as well. There's really no need to post a general announcement in my view. The publisher can simply ban whatever accounts they find that used this exploit, and keep it quiet. Thus, the announcement is more of a dog-and-pony show to show the general player base that "something" is being done re: LT exploit. This is damage control, and nothing more.

puppychow

Arctic_One wrote:

This MUST be a ban of 100% of the accounts who have used the exploit even once. Anything less is an admission by the devs to their paying customers that cheating is tolerated.

To use my experience from Archeage w/ Trion. .. when players were found to exploit the duplication cheat, their accounts were merely suspended temporarily. Afterwards, the players were allowed to return to the game. It's not unusual for game developers to look the other way, because otherwise the paying customers will take their $$$ to another game.