**** Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze) **** Updated (8/22/17)

simonsez

Handoftheking26 wrote:

he will be an automatic skip

Or, when the AI collects 12 black, you can move a character to the front who's done negligible damage so far, and laugh when the attack basically does nothing.

SangFroid

D4Ni13 wrote:

Lets take a simple ability display example: Ghost Rider + Black Panther

#0 Trigger Hellfire, and wait 1 turn (8 red).

#1. Black Panther's Battleplan (9 yellow):
3 strike tiles (at least +525 dmg on every match or ability)

#2. Ghost Rider's Burning Rubber (7 green):
1423 + 525 = 1948 damage to all enemies / puts one 151 attack tile on the board / no bonus right now
Tile match damage rises to base+525+151 = base+676

#3 tile match: base+676

---

TOTAL DMG on first active turn =>
damage to all enemies: 1948
damage to specific target: base+676
strike tiles on the board: 4

---

#4 Ghost Rider's Hellfire Triggers:
1810 + 525 + 151 = 2486 damage / yet another strike tile (235) / 362 + 676 = 1038 bonus damage for villans
Tile damage rises to base+676+235 = base+911

#5 Ghost Rider's Burning Rubber (7 green):
1423+911 = 2334 damage to all enemies / puts one 151 attack tile on the board / no bonus right now

***If we'd had 6 attack tiles, the bonus would have been at least 435+911 extra damage to all enemies. So if you have an extra stike tile generator (like Daken) in your team before this point, you could easily earn the bonus.

Tile damage rises to base+911+151 = base+1062

#6 tile match: base+1062

---

TOTAL DMG on second active turn =>
damage to all enemies: 2334 (+1346 if bonus stike tiles) to all enemies
damage to specific target(s): 2486 (+1038 if bonus villains) + (base+1062)
strike tiles on the board: 6 (or 7 if bonus for strike tiles was triggered)

---

Conclusion: in 2 active turns, you can potentially deal 5628 damage to all enemies and (3524 + (base+911) + (base+1062)) damage to specific target(s), and have over 6 strike tile on the board, for 8 red, 9 yellow and 14 green (which is a decent amount of color in any above-average game).

For the gauntlet I played with Hulk, Human Torch & Black Panther and I fired at least 20 red, 12 black, 18 yellow and 20 green in a serious match. So the above color count is very decent.

So is Ghost Rider weak? Answer: NO.
Yes, you need to play smart, and you'll probably be conditioned sometimes, but he's not week at all. He's pretty good and fun.
Imagine if you keep Hellfire on the board for more than 2 turn. The damage dealt will always go higher because of the strike tiles. And also the general tile match damage.

From reading this I believe you are confusing attack tiles and strike tiles . Ghost Rider generates ONLY attack tiles with both his red and green powers, they only hit once per turn.

Spiritclaw

IceIX wrote:

Thanos wrote:

Can we get a list of heroes and villains?

I suppose I could gin one up, but it's pretty cut and dry so I'm not sure it's really necessary to list every single character. The only ones that I can think of that are problematic are Black Widow (Original) being a Villain when the rest of her are Heroes, and Red Hulk being labelled a Villain, as this version is pre-Thunderbolts leader.

Given the fate of ultimate Peter Parker, I think it's more problematic that the Punisher isn't on the villain list.

Spiritclaw

So, if Colossus were to throw Ghost Rider at Galactus, and Galactus does his thing while GR is airborne, does penance stare do absurd damage?

hex706f726368

Spiritclaw wrote:

So, if Colossus were to throw Ghost Rider at Galactus, and Galactus does his thing while GR is airborne, does penance stare do absurd damage?

No. Penance Stare only reflects that damage received. So at best, it will do damage equal to the sum total of life that colossus and whoever else you brought along.

Rhycar

This is obviously a response to the whaled 5* teams out there. Keep GR alive for any amount of time and suddenly a level 380 Silver Surfer doesn't look so intimidating anymore.

notamutant

Rhycar wrote:

This is obviously a response to the whaled 5* teams out there. Keep GR alive for any amount of time and suddenly a level 380 Silver Surfer doesn't look so intimidating anymore.

I mean, this at best evens the playing field against a single 5 star. Remember, a max 4 star has maybe 15k health. Assuming Silver Surfer exclusively killed that character, you can do 30k damage back to SS after that guy is dead. Assuming SS can't immediately heal, or already is low enough to finish off, you are now back to fighting 2v2 with a depleted AP pool. Does it have potential against 5 stars? Yes, absolutely. But 4 stars just don't have enough health to cancel out the damage received. And you would want to risk not using this move as long as possible to inflict maximum damage on your target.

evil panda

As a member of Care Bear Stare, I appreciate Demi's commitment to diversity and inclusion of heroes who stare.

D4Ni13

SangFroid wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

Lets take a simple ability display example: Ghost Rider + Black Panther

#0 Trigger Hellfire, and wait 1 turn (8 red).

#1. Black Panther's Battleplan (9 yellow):
3 strike tiles (at least +525 dmg on every match or ability)

#2. Ghost Rider's Burning Rubber (7 green):
1423 + 525 = 1948 damage to all enemies / puts one 151 attack tile on the board / no bonus right now
Tile match damage rises to base+525+151 = base+676

#3 tile match: base+676

---

TOTAL DMG on first active turn =>
damage to all enemies: 1948
damage to specific target: base+676
strike tiles on the board: 4

---

#4 Ghost Rider's Hellfire Triggers:
1810 + 525 + 151 = 2486 damage / yet another strike tile (235) / 362 + 676 = 1038 bonus damage for villans
Tile damage rises to base+676+235 = base+911

#5 Ghost Rider's Burning Rubber (7 green):
1423+911 = 2334 damage to all enemies / puts one 151 attack tile on the board / no bonus right now

***If we'd had 6 attack tiles, the bonus would have been at least 435+911 extra damage to all enemies. So if you have an extra stike tile generator (like Daken) in your team before this point, you could easily earn the bonus.

Tile damage rises to base+911+151 = base+1062

#6 tile match: base+1062

---

TOTAL DMG on second active turn =>
damage to all enemies: 2334 (+1346 if bonus stike tiles) to all enemies
damage to specific target(s): 2486 (+1038 if bonus villains) + (base+1062)
strike tiles on the board: 6 (or 7 if bonus for strike tiles was triggered)

---

Conclusion: in 2 active turns, you can potentially deal 5628 damage to all enemies and (3524 + (base+911) + (base+1062)) damage to specific target(s), and have over 6 strike tile on the board, for 8 red, 9 yellow and 14 green (which is a decent amount of color in any above-average game).

For the gauntlet I played with Hulk, Human Torch & Black Panther and I fired at least 20 red, 12 black, 18 yellow and 20 green in a serious match. So the above color count is very decent.

So is Ghost Rider weak? Answer: NO.
Yes, you need to play smart, and you'll probably be conditioned sometimes, but he's not week at all. He's pretty good and fun.
Imagine if you keep Hellfire on the board for more than 2 turn. The damage dealt will always go higher because of the strike tiles. And also the general tile match damage.

From reading this I believe you are confusing attack tiles and strike tiles . Ghost Rider generates ONLY attack tiles with both his red and green powers, they only hit once per turn.

Ah, shoot! You're right. I misread. I thought they are strike tiles. Have to redo all of that

D4Ni13

From reading this I believe you are confusing attack tiles and strike tiles . Ghost Rider generates ONLY attack tiles with both his red and green powers, they only hit once per turn.

Ah, shoot! You're right. I misread. I thought they are strike tiles. Have to redo all of that

So I've redone my analysis of Ghost Rider paired with Black Panther.
I misread the fact that Ghost Rider makes Attack tiles not Strike Tiles.

As a note: This is an example of 2 active turns in any moment during the game, after you have gathered the necessary AP.

This scenario takes into account the usage of 8 red AP, 9 yellow AP, and 14 green AP. (This amount of AP can be gathered from 6-7 turns - if lucky - to 11 turns - as normal - or 15-16 turns as a max).

Analysis (before & after corecting the error):
Before: #0 Trigger Hellfire, and wait 1 turn (8 red).
After: This stays the same.

#1. Black Panther's Battleplan (9 yellow):
Before: 3 strike tiles (at least +525 dmg on every match, ability or strike tile)
After: This stays the same.

#2. Ghost Rider's Burning Rubber (7 green):
Before: 1423 + 525 = 1948 damage to all enemies / puts one 151 attack tile on the board / no bonus right now
Tile match damage rises to base+525+151 = base+676

After: 1423 + 525 = 1948 damage to all enemies / puts one 151 attack tile on the board / no bonus right now
Tile match damage rises to base+525

#3 Normal tile match
Before: tile match damage: base+676

After:
tile match damage: base+525
attack tile damage: 525+151 = 676

---

TOTAL DMG on first active turn =>
damage to all enemies: 1948
damage to specific target: base+525 + 676 damage
strike tiles on the board: 3
attack tiles on the board: 1

---

#4 Ghost Rider's Hellfire Triggers:
Before: 1810 + 525 + 151 = 2486 damage / yet another strike tile (235) / 362 + 676 = 1038 bonus damage for villains
Tile damage rises to base+676+235 = base+911

After: 1810 + 525 = 2335 damage / 235 attack tile / 362 + 525 = 887 bonus damage for villains
Tile damage stay at base+525

#5 Ghost Rider's Burning Rubber (7 green):
Before: 1423+911 = 2334 damage to all enemies / 151 attack tile / if bonus: 425+911 to all enemies
Tile damage rises to base+911+151 = base+1062

After: 1423+525 = 1948 damage to all enemies / 151 attack tile / if bonus: 425+525 to all enemies
Tile damage stays to base+525

#6 Normal tile match:
Before: tile match damage: base+1062

After:
tile damage: base+525
attack tiles damage: 525+151+235+151 = 1062

---

TOTAL DMG on second active turn =>
damage to all enemies: 1948 (+950 if bonus attack tiles) to all enemies
damage to specific target(s): 2335 (+887 if bonus villains) + (base+525+1062)
strike tiles on the board: 3
attack tiles on the board: 3

---

Before: in 2 active turns, you can potentially deal 5628 damage to all enemies and (3524 + (base+911) + (base+1062)) damage to specific target(s), and have over 6 strike tile on the board, for 8 red, 9 yellow and 14 green (which is a decent amount of color in any above-average game).

After: in 2 active turns, you can potentially deal 3896 (+950 if bonus) damage to all enemies and (3222 + (base+525+676) + (base+525+1062)) damage to specific target(s), and have 3 strike tile and 3 attack tiles on the board, for 8 red, 9 yellow and 14 green (which is a decent amount of color in any above-average game).

---

Damage to all enemies => Before: 4282 (+1336 if bonus); After: 3896 (+950 if bonus) => Difference: -386 (-386 if bonus) damage
Damage to specific target(s) => Before: (3524 + (base+911) + (base+1062)) = 2*base + 5497; After: (3222 + (base+525+676) + (base+525+1062)) = 2*base + 6010; Difference: +513 damage

So the damage is a little lower than before for all enemies, and a bit higher for the specific targets (after the correct calculation).
My opinion stays the same, despite the lower damage on all enemies: Ghost Rider is a decent character. For me he is better than other 4 stars, and I will try to get him.

Cheers,
and sorry for the long comments.

D4Ni13

OJSP wrote:

D4Ni13 wrote:

My opinion stays the same, despite the lower damage on all enemies: Ghost Rider is a decent character. For me he is better than other 4 stars, and I will try to get him.

Cheers,
and sorry for the long comments.

Don't be sorry and thanks for doing the maths. It makes it easier to imagine his place and usefulness in a 4* roster, in comparison to Hulkbuster, Iceman, Jean Grey or Red Hulk.. like you said, he's decent. Unfortunately, he's not special.

I agree he's better than some 4*s, but honestly, needing that many APs, we're not going to survive against over scaled Ares, let alone the 3 Amigos, other Dark Avenger line ups in PvEs or any difficult nodes. Using one of the Gauntlet's nodes as an example, we probably wouldn't bring him to face the X-Force pair and Thor in Simulation 42, at lvl 395 Thor has over than 25,000 HP, Deadpool has 20,000 and Wolverine has almost 16,000. One Out of Bullets will one-shot Black Panther.

We'll also struggle to do well in PvPs against other 4*s. With Black Panther as the 3rd character, unless he's boosted, we're going to be an easy target. Collecting that many APs will take that much time and risking a lot of match damage and enemy's powers, we'll probably need a couple of health packs after a match. This makes him only sustainable during an early climb. During a shield hop, we're risking a lot of attacks, not to mention we could actually lose the match against better and quicker 4*s out there.

He could be useful against weaker teams, but that makes his Penance Stare weaker.. I think there's simply too many conditions to be fulfilled, for him to deal optimum damage. There are simpler and stronger 4*s out there already.

I think a 395 Thor is a tough call for anyone, let alone Ghost Rider.
I played the Gauntlet games with different teams, but the most successful one was Spider-Man (140) + Wolverine Patch (155) + Loki (127), believe it or not, despite the fact that I have maxed 3 stars. I even had the surprise to perform better in hard missions with the mentioned team than with Human Torch (166) + Hulk (166) + Black Panther (166), which performed well at easy to medium levels. (As a note: I have few 4 stars right now, IW being the higher one, and I still managed to end all the gauntlet simulations. Only missions missing are because I sold my bloody Daken 3 weeks ago for rooster space... )


What I'm saying is that there are several options to win a fight, it doesn't have to be straight up and fast damage. So I wouldn't exclude Ghost Rider, just because his damage output is not top tear at first glance.
I think he has some potential, and paired with the right choices maybe he will perform.
Maybe Ant-Man would be a better suited partner, he makes attack tiles, strike tiles, steals from the enemy, etc.
I think that Hellfire has potential if you play against foes that don't alter the board to much. 1800+ damage on every 2 turns is not bad.

He is not a straight up damage dealer. He's a bit slower, and thematic. I am exited because I wanted to see him in the game a long time ago. I guess only time can tell if he will be a good or a bad character .

Phaserhawk

Handoftheking26 wrote:

I know every new char takes some getting used to...but I believe this to be a pretty original set of abilities

I'll disagree, this is 4* Punisher, with just a different option for execution.

Cheap AoE that creates an attack bonus......check

CD tile that creates attack tiles........check

Execution type skill........check.

Sure he has tweaks on those skills, like the CD doing damage in addition to attack tile, and attack tiles instead of strike.

The finisher is the big difference, as one is due to dmg dealt and the other is health remaining.

I'm still not sold on whether to aim for 5/3/5 or 5/5/3. Red sucks, but black may just be worthless or overkill. For me Black is essentially a counter to AoE. You could leave red Hulk last, he drops a Green Aoe that averages 7500 dmg from all three, and then you drop him with 15K back at his face. Same with JG, she hits everyone fro 10K, you punch her back for 20

Bishop

I think this is just another QS with its black on defense anyway. Which could of been annoying atleast on defense. I just don't see AI using it right.

D4Ni13

Phaserhawk wrote:

Handoftheking26 wrote:

I know every new char takes some getting used to...but I believe this to be a pretty original set of abilities

I'll disagree, this is 4* Punisher, with just a different option for execution.

Cheap AoE that creates an attack bonus......check

CD tile that creates attack tiles........check

Execution type skill........check.

Sure he has tweaks on those skills, like the CD doing damage in addition to attack tile, and attack tiles instead of strike.

The finisher is the big difference, as one is due to dmg dealt and the other is health remaining.

I'm still not sold on whether to aim for 5/3/5 or 5/5/3. Red sucks, but black may just be worthless or overkill. For me Black is essentially a counter to AoE. You could leave red Hulk last, he drops a Green Aoe that averages 7500 dmg from all three, and then you drop him with 15K back at his face. Same with JG, she hits everyone fro 10K, you punch her back for 20

Well you got to admit that Ghost Rider and Punisher are somewhat similar as flavor. They are anti-heroes put there to punish anyone who done evil. They are on the same niche. So it's normal to have similar abilities in game, with small key differences like you said already, Penance Stare vs Retribution.

As for your strategy with taking 7500 dmg from Red Hulk and give it back, I say that most of the time it would probably be a big No-No. By the time you would take that kind of damage from Red Hulk, your team would probably don't have enough life to survive it. And remember that you have to gather 12 black, which will put Ghost Rider in the front and take damage. So I don't know.

As for the Hellfire (red ability), lots of you say it sucks, and I don't understand why. How many characters give 1800+ damage via 2 turns? There's Human Torch's green who can give that kind of damage or higher if you have enough AP, and there's Elektra with her Ballet of Death (1200 on turn). Other than that I don't recall any other character giving that kind of damage over 2 turns, constantly.
Black Panther's shield works the same, and I often spawn 2 or 3 of those before the tile itself gets matched. So that means it last 4-6 rounds on the board... that's pretty much damage for 8 red with GR, and the damage will always be higher overall because of the attack tiles.

D4Ni13

Unfortunately, your opinion did sound like it's coming from either a 3* player , 3*-4* transitioner or a Ghost Rider big fan.

You're right, I am a 3* - 4* transitioner. And I play free (I invested some money back in the day when there were no 3* characters, so I can level my 2* wolverine, but playing free since then).

I don't try to get my point across, but I'm that type of player who doesn't judge a (comic)book by it's cover

All jokes aside, you are probably right, there are plenty options out there, especially for 4* players. There's a lot of talk, and we didn't see him in action yet. I was only trying to be the voice of reason. Not all players are 4* or even 3*. If they see everybody say the character is ****, they may not fight to get it, but maybe for them it could be a good performer.

I'm not a fan of Ghost Rider, I'm just exited about him a little. I like diversity, and playing some RPGs recently I tend to learn that everybody has its place, damage dealer or not.

I am a huge fan of Gambit though. That would be a character I play even if he's weak. Guess will have to wait and see.

Just like you, I'm going to stick to my original opinion in my first reply. I'll see how he plays out once I get him fully covered sometimes next year

I don't know when and if I will have him fully covered. I'm still trying to get some of my 4* I already own fully covered, and that's going very slow at the moment .

Marc_Spector

Phaserhawk wrote:

I'm still not sold on whether to aim for 5/3/5 or 5/5/3. Red sucks, but black may just be worthless or overkill.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking the same thing (And was starting to think I was crazy for considering 5/5/3 ).

I like the cheap cost of his green and red. Black in my opinion will be "good enough" (at 3 covers) against an aforementioned AOE nuke from JG/RH/etc. Generally I find it of more conditional/situational use than the other two, as when I'm doing a PVP climb I'm generally trying to (and playing carefully enough to) NOT take a giant nuke to the face. I also have no faith in the A.I. using his black properly, in terms of both timing and target.

Overall, though, I still think it's a great and original design for a move; I'm pretty happy with Ghost Rider's design overall (and the great Clayton Crain cover they chose for him!! That miniseries was amazing.)

notamutant

Marc Spector wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I'm still not sold on whether to aim for 5/3/5 or 5/5/3. Red sucks, but black may just be worthless or overkill.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking the same thing (And was starting to think I was crazy for considering 5/5/3 ).

I like the cheap cost of his green and red. Black in my opinion will be "good enough" (at 3 covers) against an aforementioned AOE nuke from JG/RH/etc. Generally I find it of more conditional/situational use than the other two, as when I'm doing a PVP climb I'm generally trying to (and playing carefully enough to) NOT take a giant nuke to the face. I also have no faith in the A.I. using his black properly, in terms of both timing and target.

Overall, though, I still think it's a great and original design for a move; I'm pretty happy with Ghost Rider's design overall (and the amazing Clayton Crain cover they chose for him!! That miniseries was amazing.)

I think there are a couple different scenarios you have to consider.

1) Do you need additional characters for climb in PvP? I would guess for most people the answer is no, there are plenty to climb with.

2) Do you need a character able to quickly end a match during a hop? This one is probably a yes. So then you have to ask will GR give you the ability to hop quicker, ignoring health since that doesn't matter as much during a hop? The answer is probably yes, if you can properly arrange the enemy to use key skills against you at the right time. Additionally, you now can go two matches during a hop without health packs, one with Hulkbuster and one with GR, since they both have similar colors and rely on taking damage to be powerful.

So I wouldn't really leave GR out on defense. I would use him for a hop, or against overpowered PvE nodes. I wouldn't use him in a climb ever. So given that, do I think he would be potentially good on a quick hop? I normally skip JG/HB PvP nodes during a hop since things can slow down and go wrong fast. With GR, you have a lot more potential to turn things around. If JG gets off AOE, she is dead. HB gets off his red, he is dead. You need a lot of black AP to do it, but the potential is there. Would he be more useful in regular matches at 5/5/3? Yes, probably, but there are already enough general characters out there, just like in 3 star land we got specialized characters, we have that in 4 star land too now.

Marc_Spector

notamutant wrote:

I think there are a couple different scenarios you have to consider (snip)

All excellent points! Black does fill a good niche for shield-hops, especially against the aforementioned JG/HB groups.

As with all of the current crop of new 4*s, I look forward to seeing how they fit into the overall meta down the line -- and look forward to your Ghost Rider video, NAM!

Omega Red

That black is going to make GR the best miracle-comeback character in the game.

Leugenesmiff

IceIX wrote:

Thanos wrote:

Can we get a list of heroes and villains?

I suppose I could gin one up, but it's pretty cut and dry so I'm not sure it's really necessary to list every single character. The only ones that I can think of that are problematic are Black Widow (Original) being a Villain when the rest of her are Heroes, and Red Hulk being labelled a Villain, as this version is pre-Thunderbolts leader.

Edit: Added one to the OP.

Is Juggernaut a hero or a villan now? I just got back into reading comics (I stopped way back in 1991) and where I am now he's member of The X-Men. Also, what about Magneto, he's kind of good now too? Come to think of it, what about Mystique? Electra is leading The Hand and is bad, right? And Ares, what's he? He's listed as Dark Avenger, but he's currently (for me) a Mighty Avenger, so I'm guessing he's good.
Thanks for any answers, but please just say good or bad and don't include any spoilers as to what may be the reason. I've got a lot of catching up to do and have tried my best to stay in the dark on all I've missed.
BTW, just finished Civil War and am now in the middle of WWH. There's a whole lot of smashing going on right now! I love the Marvel Unlimited app on iPad (when it's working well, at least.)

Thanks again