Black Widow (Original) - 2*

Lystrata

locked wrote:

@Lystrata: apparently you never had AI oBW cascade purple on you yet
You just wait for it, young padawan! I have wiped on a 3/5/5 oBW with maxed 3*s - with pre-nerf classic Magneto and Spider-Man, to boot!

Hahah, true enough! Knock on wood it never occurs.

I still think she's good for 2* transitioning, though.

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

Yes, we all know that another OBW, or any number of 3* characters can beat her. That doesn't make any other 2* teams any better against her.

That is complete and utter **** and you know it. I won't repeat what has been said in this thread.

Pwuz_

KevinMark wrote:

Pwuz_ wrote:

Yes, we all know that another OBW, or any number of 3* characters can beat her. That doesn't make any other 2* teams any better against her.

That is complete and utter tinykitty and you know it. I won't repeat what has been said in this thread.

I've read and been commenting throughout this thread.

Downvoting my posts doesn't change how relevant my point is.

Besides "using OBW against OBW, various 3* characters, or multiple 2* characters to counter a single OBW," no one has suggested a reasonable counter for 2* players. If I missed any, please remind me, but NONE of these "counters" take away from her overpowered nature.

I did make a suggestion of a FUTURE 2* power or change of existing 2* power that would work as a good counter to OBW, but that doesn't mean anything currently.

ErikPeter

OK. OBW IS FINE AS IS, BUT HERE'S A FIX ANYWAY.

Why is OBW so good? She can single-handedly turn the tide of battle. You need to beat her with priority. Once in a while, maybe too often if you're relying on a character like 94 Cap to be your heavy hitter, while you're preventing her from getting purple and whittling her down, you're unlucky and she gets blue and heals herself back to full, and now you're back to where you started but the enemy team has a bunch of AP.

My solution changes Anti-Gravity Device, making it heal over time, giving you a window to take her down after she uses it. Potentially, the power could pump out a lot of healing and be just as annoying, but at least she'll be dead by that point, right?

Healing tiles are essentially like Attack tiles except they heal your team for a small amount each turn.

Anti-Gravity Device 11
Stolen Stark tech increases enemy countdowns by 2. If there are none, creates 2 healing tiles of strength 11.

Level Upgrades:
Level 2: Add 3 to timers.
Level 3: Costs 2 AP less.
Level 4: Adds 4 to timers or create 3 healing tiles of strength 8.
Level 5: Creates 3 tiles of strength 4 with enemy countdown tiles present; otherwise creates 5 tiles of strength 5.

At Max Level:
3 covers: Creates 2 tiles of strength 105 without enemy countdown tiles present
4 covers: Creates 3 tiles of strength 73 without enemy countdown tiles present
5 covers: Creates 3 tiles of strength 41 with enemy countdown tiles present; otherwise creates 5 tiles of strength 49.

These numbers roughly correspond to the current power given a tile lifespan of 5 turns. Higher levels get more tiles to ensure the heal will "stick" a bit better. The numbers are a bit low since I accidentally used the template of the level 85 max OBW.

Pwuz_

Interesting. By Healing Tiles, do you mean a new special tile that heals every turn, or a countdown tile that heals?

And did you intend for her to make Strength tiles as well or is that a mistake? That would make her even more powerful with her Espionage double dipping.

ErikPeter

Pwuz_ wrote:

Interesting. By Healing Tiles, do you mean a new special tile that heals every turn, or a countdown tile that heals?

And did you intend for her to make Strength tiles as well or is that a mistake? That would make her even more powerful with her Espionage double dipping.

As I mentioned in the post, healing tiles are essentially like attack tiles, but they heal your team each turn instead of dealing damage.

"...Of strength x" just means, that's the strength of the healing. I think you're thinking of strike tiles.

Pwuz_

ErikPeter wrote:

Pwuz_ wrote:

Interesting. By Healing Tiles, do you mean a new special tile that heals every turn, or a countdown tile that heals?

And did you intend for her to make Strength tiles as well or is that a mistake? That would make her even more powerful with her Espionage double dipping.

As I mentioned in the post, healing tiles are essentially like attack tiles, but they heal your team each turn instead of dealing damage.

"...Of strength x" just means, that's the strength of the healing. I think you're thinking of strike tiles.

Sorry, the wording threw me for the upgrades.

The only issue with creating a new type of tile is those skills that counter special tiles. At what level would Doc Ock's Blue start affecting them? What about Falcon's Blue? Hmmm, seems like a lot of blue skills that affect special tiles. I think a single turn count-down tile (like HT's Flame Jet) would work effectively the same, but not require creating a new in game mechanic.

The other question is would each of these tiles only heal OBW, only the character in front, or would they still heal her whole team as well?

I'd also suggest she only create her new tiles on Blue Basic tiles.

Unknown

If they work like attack tiles, would they remain if she was KO'd? Would Falcon be able to boost them? It could definitely add an interesting twist if all burst healers had a new type of special tile

Unknown

I always think it's pretty hilarious people say OBW isn't overpowered and then in the same thread will talk about how AR3 which is sometimes a 2 match move due to Espionage can absolutely put the game away in a single usage and that's totally not overpowered (and it also isn't even true).

The current state of MPQ is that D3 would like to pretend OBW didn't exist with level shift and this mostly works since you can't go back and decrease your 3* character's levels. Since level shift has the side effect of making the entire 2* irrelevent in PvE and PvP after a certain point there's not much reason to go back to try to revamp them unless they're going to undo the level shift.

Unknown

She is easily the cheapest 2 star character by a mile. This is evidenced by the fact that some guys use her with 2 other 166ers in open challenges. Just like the hood and sentry in 3 stars she makes the game a worse experience. D3 doesnt really care about those details though.

Unknown

If you're looking for 2* solutions, 2* Daken is another counter to OBW. He cares not for AP, and can blast his blue quickly. His purple is his secondary attack colour as well.

OBW + 166 is free points to a 166 team.

ErikPeter

Pwuz_ wrote:

ErikPeter wrote:

Healing tiles are essentially like attack tiles, but they heal your team each turn instead of dealing damage.

The only issue with creating a new type of tile is those skills that counter special tiles. At what level would Doc Ock's Blue start affecting them? What about Falcon's Blue? Hmmm, seems like a lot of blue skills that affect special tiles. I think a single turn count-down tile (like HT's Flame Jet) would work effectively the same, but not require creating a new in game mechanic.

The other question is would each of these tiles only heal OBW, only the character in front, or would they still heal her whole team as well?

I'd also suggest she only create her new tiles on Blue Basic tiles.

Just put them at the same level as attack tiles. I think a new tile type would work better than a countdown because CDs are harder get rid of. CDs would go away when OBW was downed, which makes the power less useful, but might make it easier to deal with.

They'd heal the whole team. Switching some other other characters' team heals to heal tiles could make them more usable. Burst heal is most useful after a while, when everyone's injured, but heal tiles would work proactively to 'top off' people as they take damage. Beast's heal, or She-Hulk's, might be worth popping if they had a chance to heal more than they currently do (especially against mooks who won't match them away.)

Making hers only blue would be reasonable, to prevent total overkill. (since you'd have to match blue to get blue to activate it a second time.)

Red Panda wrote:

If they work like attack tiles, would they remain if she was KO'd? Would Falcon be able to boost them? It could definitely add an interesting twist if all burst healers had a new type of special tile

They'd stick, like attack tiles. I imagine Falcon would boost them, yes.

Wolarsen

OBW is an incredible character. Espionage wears out as you level your other characters and you get into high level 3*, but the other 2 powers are still awesome.

- Blue healing is not bad, but the main strenght of the move is the CD increase; I seldom use the skill for healing, but to manage enemy CDs: almost nullifies goon nodes in PvE, delays heavily strong CDs as Sentry WR, LCaptain tosses, NFury Escapeplan, Xwolv healing, Hulk Anger, HTorch Flame Jet. Add Punisher Molotov, Ares Sunder, MHawkeye shots and MNMagneto for more utility.
- I find also Recon a great power; never tried 5/x/x, but at 3 severely hinders enemy AP, needing only 2-3 matches. I try to make her tank only Purple in order to need only 2 matches to use the skill.

Sure, its a 2* and fragile, but you better target her first or else. Daken will chew her easily, but with a little luck (and I mean just a little) she can stand to unthinkable challenges; I have downed one on one an almost full life lvl150sh LCap, by matching her primary colors. It is a reliable character to attack.

I find her and Ares VERY strong 2* characters, but I would say they do not deserve / need a debuff.

Unknown

The one thing I find out of place and/or in need of balancing about OBW is how she compares to bagman. Wait stop laughing hear me out a minute.

Bagman is a joke, yes we all know this but he is also a specialist. His job is dealing with countdown timers. He has 3 different ways of doing it from making swaps to match them away, to locking several of them down to increasing the timers. he has three tools to deal with countdown timers and is WORSE at it than just using antigravity alone. Oh did we mention that on top of being able to wreck face on countdown timers better than a character whose only job is countdowns it ALSO is one of the best healing powers in the game.

Yes I know she has all the steals and can wreck the best laid plans, and can heal back slowing a match down, and does the strike tile synergy thing. But to on top of those things that would make a solid character by themselves, she also has to put bagman to shame at his own game. Too far Natasha too far.

Thus my proposed change to OBW. Change antigravity device to only affect 3 CD timers max. Also change snarky remark to increase all timers by # of web tiles+2.

Pwuz_

Wolarsen wrote:

OBW is an incredible character. Espionage wears out as you level your other characters and you get into high level 3*, but the other 2 powers are still awesome.

- Blue healing is not bad, but the main strenght of the move is the CD increase; I seldom use the skill for healing, but to manage enemy CDs: almost nullifies goon nodes in PvE, delays heavily strong CDs as Sentry WR, LCaptain tosses, NFury Escapeplan, Xwolv healing, Hulk Anger, HTorch Flame Jet. Add Punisher Molotov, Ares Sunder, MHawkeye shots and MNMagneto for more utility.
- I find also Recon a great power; never tried 5/x/x, but at 3 severely hinders enemy AP, needing only 2-3 matches. I try to make her tank only Purple in order to need only 2 matches to use the skill.

Sure, its a 2* and fragile, but you better target her first or else. Daken will chew her easily, but with a little luck (and I mean just a little) she can stand to unthinkable challenges; I have downed one on one an almost full life lvl150sh LCap, by matching her primary colors. It is a reliable character to attack.

I find her and Ares VERY strong 2* characters, but I would say they do not deserve / need a debuff.

What other healing powers have secondary effects? What other healing powers (or powers in general) become significantly stronger when their other effect goes unused?

Would OBW still be as threatening IF max level 5 covers she healed 676 & raised countdown tiles by 2. No extra health boost if there were no countdown tiles to affect.

Unknown

Wow, I can't believe how far this topic has gone since I last looked at it.

I don't know what the fuss about OBW from everyone is. OBW can be dead pretty easy. I use Ares/Daken now as my main team until I get enough covers for 3*. 2 green matches = 2 strike tiles from Daken and one Onslaught in her face. After that you go for a Blue Daken (Which is 5 AP, very cheap) and she is dead already. It's not hard to counter her because her HP is very low.

Now, I think some of you are going after her with 1* roster. Well, this is a problem. She is beatable and very fragile. But if you see an Ares/OBW team, of course you will step back. That combo is scary. Not because OBW is so OP that will kill you, but because by the time you kill OBW, Ares will be ready to stomp you. Or if you focus on Ares, OBW will steal your AP before you blink.

There are scary team combos that make OBW a bad one to counter, but Hood is an even worse one to deal with than OBW. But I guess you are not at the point to fight him yet. When you get there maybe we will see similar complains.

Just let the game be already. There have been more than enough changes in this game because so many people cry. She's the best 2* you can have in your offence and defense. That is a far bigger advantage than having to fight her in AI controlled mode.

vudu3

aelkoa wrote:

Hey guys! Just seen that enemy protect tiles are cutting the healing amount of Anti-Gravity Device.
Is it a bug or this is the strange way how it works? Lost my match because of that...

Are you sure there weren't any enemy countdown tiles on the board? If there are countdown tiles present then Anti-Gravity increases the timer by 4 but heal is cut in half.

Wobby

Someone's 1 during Balance of Power wrecked a Sentry match for me.
Nothing worse than losing the yellow you needed for sacrifice while the World Rupture timers are already going.

Unknown

So I was playing Red Iso-8 where OBW is boosted and noticed what I think is a fairly major stealth nerf. Was it announced that AGD was going to be changed to either raise CD tiles OR heal for one lump sum if no CD exist? Not sure if I missed this as I wasn't on the forums or in the game for a few weeks (ran out of space on android, small install size changed that) but skimming through it doesn't seem to be mentioned. It seems like a relatively fair change, but took me by surprise.

Unknown

bob_irwin wrote:

So I was playing Red Iso-8 where OBW is boosted and noticed what I think is a fairly major stealth nerf. Was it announced that AGD was going to be changed to either raise CD tiles OR heal for one lump sum if no CD exist? Not sure if I missed this as I wasn't on the forums or in the game for a few weeks (ran out of space on android, small install size changed that) but skimming through it doesn't seem to be mentioned. It seems like a relatively fair change, but took me by surprise.

If CD tiles are out, she only heals if her blue has five covers