Please fix the point gap in PvP, and shield hopping.

Der_Lex

Wonko33 wrote:

Colognoisseur wrote:

There is absolutely nothing the devs can do about the out of game communication happening on LINE and elsewhere. The only solution would be to upgrade the in-game chat so that it allowed one-on-one conversations and out of alliance groups. Then it would be available to all within game. The reason this probably won't happen is I imagine the resources necessary to upgrade the in-game chat to this level of functionality is just not available. They aren't going to take programming time away from things that make them money and help most of the players to fix something that affects only a few.

As for shielding there is also only one solution to curtail sky-high scores. You get one shield per event and one shield only. There would be no more hopping except for within the final few minutes which would be risky. It would still have the effect of making the time period just before the end a free-for-all with players playing a leapfrogging game of hoping their score will hold up while using their one shield.

I don't think you will see either of these things happen.

yeah shields were originally implemented to stop the free for all stuff that forced all top players to be playing at the end, so probably not.

I think just removing the names would but a big damper with coordinating, just show the name once you won to keep some of the fun of it being PvP I guess. Someone said they would just organize using time and teams but that would really make it a guessing game because at the end there most 45+ point matches are the same teams. MAybe you could tell by watching their rosters but that is time consuming

Not really, since coordinating is mostly about ensuring you have enough targets lined up that are worth a decent amount of points when you unshield (if you still have to look for targets when you unshield, you're usually taking too much time already). If someone lets me know they're unshielding, and I look around the queue a bit at that point in time to find a 40+ point target, it doesn't really matter if it's that buddy or not. All it does is provide me with the opportunity to be 100% certain of finding someone worth enough points when I'm looking.

This also means that you can line up targets for your next shield hop even without outside communication by going through your queue at certain points during your shielded period and keeping an match worth enough points. At worst, that'll cost you a bit more ISO than coordinating would.

OnesOwnGrief

grunth13 wrote:

They should just get rid of the name of the person you are attacking so that there won't be sniping from a group and would limit outside communication.

There are other ways to communicate if this is implemented. Wouldn't be difficult for someone to field a specific team to look for during a hop to find for points. Would just add an extra layer on top of things already available. Also, if they would go as far to remove names from people, there will be a lot more of you people having problems as lowbies actually get skipped from plenty of people at the top.

scottee wrote:

I've missed #1 a couple of times because of going up against coordinated players. I am perfectly okay with that fact. My alliance is on Line, lots of top players are on Line, and I could easily download it and join them. I've made the choice not to, because I don't want a separate app just for this game. So I know that means I'll miss out on the coordination. And I'm 100% ok with that. Sometimes I win, sometimes I don't.

(I actually revel on the times I do take #1 without using any outside communication.)

It's not just a MPQ thing. Sure it may start out that way but you build some pretty solid bonds with your group the better you're able to communicate with them. Django's chat has gone from MPQ to many other topics such as movies, comics, tv series, life, etc. Pictures and everything. It's family. Not just "How do I match 3 things better."

Der_Lex

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

grunth13 wrote:

They should just get rid of the name of the person you are attacking so that there won't be sniping from a group and would limit outside communication.

There are other ways to communicate if this is implemented. Wouldn't be difficult for someone to field a specific team to look for during a hop to find for points. Would just add an extra layer on top of things already available. Also, if they would go as far to remove names from people, there will be a lot more of you people having problems as lowbies actually get skipped from plenty of people at the top.

That and I try to avoid hitting the same person more than once during a climb/hop if possible. Removing names would take that away as well.

Unknown

Lol, I am just as competitive as any other player, sure I may not have every 4* to max as those in the top alliance do, but that doesn't mean I have no chance at getting Rank 1. All you need are 3 solid characters during a PvP event to be competitive, of course that involves having 4*'s, but you don't need to have every single one because they aren't being used anyways.

As I stated, the whole point of an alliance is to work together and I understand that, but it is still a disadvantage when you aren't in these alliance. I like the alliance I am in, although we are not top, they are nice people to talk to, I shouldn't be obligated to leave my alliance to join a stronger one just to do well.

Some people have stated that "You are not as competitive".

When you spend the same amount of HP on shields, use the same amount of shields, do the same 1-2 matches between shields (which is also spending the same amount of time during a PvP event), that's pretty competitive there.
The only thing that you aren't doing is the coordination, and my point is that you shouldn't, I don't mind a friend telling a friend to attack me when I unshield, that's fine (that's what PvP is all about), but if I can't find a target worth points during a shield hop, then that's a problem.

Allowing everyone to gain a decent amount of points even without coordination (waiting for someone to unshiled) would probably introduce another issue with points being a lot higher (though I don't have an issue with that since people score high right now anyway with coordination).

GothicKratos

sagapo wrote:

As I stated, the whole point of an alliance is to work together and I understand that, but it is still a disadvantage when you aren't in these alliance. I like the alliance I am in, although we are not top, they are nice people to talk to, I shouldn't be obligated to leave my alliance to join a stronger one just to do well.

You're not. Read these posts again. You can get on LINE and participate in Battle Chats without joining a big Alliance.

...but even if that wasn't the case, that's you weighing the social elements of your current Alliance heavier than the potential competitive advantages of another. There's always going to be a top and if you're not willing to make the choices to be there, other people will.

san

sagapo wrote:

Lol, I am just as competitive as any other player, sure I may not have every 4* to max as those in the top alliance do, but that doesn't mean I have no chance at getting Rank 1. All you need are 3 solid characters during a PvP event to be competitive, of course that involves having 4*'s, but you don't need to have every single one because they aren't being used anyways.

As I stated, the whole point of an alliance is to work together and I understand that, but it is still a disadvantage when you aren't in these alliance. I like the alliance I am in, although we are not top, they are nice people to talk to, I shouldn't be obligated to leave my alliance to join a stronger one just to do well.

Some people have stated that "You are not as competitive".

When you spend the same amount of HP on shields, use the same amount of shields, do the same 1-2 matches between shields (which is also spending the same amount of time during a PvP event), that's pretty competitive there.
The only thing that you aren't doing is the coordination, and my point is that you shouldn't, I don't mind a friend telling a friend to attack me when I unshield, that's fine (that's what PvP is all about), but if I can't find a target worth points during a shield hop, then that's a problem.

Allowing everyone to gain a decent amount of points even without coordination (waiting for someone to unshiled) would probably introduce another issue with points being a lot higher (though I don't have an issue with that since people score high right now anyway with coordination).

You seem to defeat yourself here. Here's a summary:

A) I am just as competitive
B)I am not coordinating
C) Coordinating is part of PVP (inference: if it's part of PVP, it is part of competition)

Your conclusion based on above: I am at a disadvantage, and not willing to change. ban this sort of thing for everyone
My conclusion based on above: your point is invalid, since you just basically told us you are not competitive. There's nothing wrong with not being competitive, but you appear to be quite upset at this suggestion.

san

GothicKratos wrote:

You're not. Read these posts again. You can get on LINE and participate in Battle Chats without joining a big Alliance.

...but even if that wasn't the case, that's you weighing the social elements of your current Alliance heavier than the potential competitive advantages of another. There's always going to be a top and if you're not willing to make the choices to be there, other people will.

Sorry for the double post, but had to address this.

I agree with Gothic here, in that it is a choice whether you wish to do this or not. You choose not to, and that's fine. This is akin to a salesperson being irked at the best customers not going to him because they go to another salesperson who works the hours they need. You're not doing the things that allow you to do this (joining such an alliance, participating in LINE chat) and appear to believe that it is a right that you should be able to do the same amount of point.

Secondly, as I pointed out in an earlier post, the ACTUAL loss from losing that Rank 1 isn't a whole lot if you overlook the 4* cover. It may be a cover difference and some iso from top 5 to top 25 - who cares? You can earn the covers elsewhere.

Lastly, I think the sort of game you talk about is really what PVE is. The more work you put in, the better you fare, usually regardless of roster. Give that a shot, eh?

Unknown

I left the comments about LINE out because installing an app for an app is something I don't want to do. I'd rather take the loss.

You can say I am not as competitive since I choose to not use outside coordination, and you're right, but I am competitive in every other aspect.

Also there are different aspect of PvP, if it's 3v3 PvP, then coordination is a must. However, this game is mostly 1v1, and even then it's against the AI, so I fail to see why you need to coordinate?

Anyway, the whole point is to ask the BA's/Dev's for a change for players that want to compete without the need of coordination.

san

sagapo wrote:

I left the comments about LINE out because installing an app for an app is something I don't want to do. I'd rather take the loss.

You can say I am not as competitive since I choose to not use outside coordination, and you're right, but I am competitive in every other aspect.

Also there are different aspect of PvP, if it's 3v3 PvP, then coordination is a must. However, this game is mostly 1v1, and even then it's against the AI, so I fail to see why you need to coordinate?

Anyway, the whole point is to ask the BA's/Dev's for a change for players that want to compete without the need of coordination.

I would argue that LINE is as much part of this game as vanilla ice cream is to apple pie. Sure, you can have it individually, but it's so much better together. And if I were a judge in a cooking contest, I'd almost inevitable take the pie with the ice cream.

(feel free to replace pie/ice cream with chimichanga/salsa, mash/gravy, fries/ketchup, hot dog/mustard, or any other awesome food combination - food only though, I don't want to see any of those silly folks who think you need a helmet to ride a bike, or a swimsuit to go swimming in a public pool - kidding, of course.... or am I?)

Der_Lex

So it's basically still 'I don't want to do X to score higher, so ban X for everyone', even if X is freely available for every player (so it's not some secret elite keeping the poor little players down) and doesn't just offer a few in-game advantages, but gives players an additional social experience that the forum and in-game chat are unable to provide them.

You're essentially saying 'I don't want to be more social, so others shouldn't be allowed to either'. Not sure that's such a great side of the argument to be on. Especially not if your biggest concern (I can't find good targets) is easily remedied by spending a little bit more time and ISO for frequent queue checks if you really don't want to talk to other people.

JVReal

I think he's a little bit confused as well on what the communication actually does... it isn't communication about who is unshielded so you can hit them... that's sniping... the communication is so you can know when people who will have good scores (worth more points) are un-shielding so you can queue them up. When they are unshielded they are now visible in your queue, then when you have them queued, you go to the next node and queue up the other person in the battle chat that is unshielded... until you have all 3 nodes occupied with high point, unshielded players. Then you wait. You can wait because you should be doing this while you are shielded, you don't actually break shield until you are ready to do battle.

Once those 3 people say they have shielded in battle chat, you can then announce you are unshielding, fight those battles, then re-shield. You get the points, they don't lose points because they are shielded, and other people were able to queue you up while you were unshielded and are waiting for you to announce that you have shielded then they will attack you while shielded and get points, and you keep yours because you're shielded.

This is the benefit of LINE and being in battle chats, it is a win-win scenario. Guaranteed high point targeting, and the courtesy to wait until they are shielded before attacking. These types of things you cannot do in the game as it is designed.

Why use a GPS when you can just use road signs? Because it is extremely helpful, even though it is a third party system not developed by the Department of Transportation.

Phaserhawk

Agreed, you have people doing what was intended when the alliance system was created, actually creating friendships and such, yet other's don't like. The only possible semi-solution if indeed this is what the Devs didn't want, is to not allow a player's own alliance to be targeted and then locking in rosters at the start of a PvP. But all that would happen is that group would just create 2-3 alliances so you would do all of that for nothing. D3 has done some things to curb the abuse, like the defensive win's (although currently defensive wins are a joke, this needs to be fixed better than what was done IMO, but wins are more oh well). But I'm pretty darn sure this is a case of working as intended, otherwise they would have never removed the HP cap on alliances.

elvy75

From op I can read that OP was in bracket competing for #1 against 5 people from other alliance. That alliance didn't need outside communication to knock OP down to #8, they only needed to follow scoreboard to see when OP is in shielding and to hit him to secure one of them will win. OP could do the same, in his alliance ingame chat ask members to hit anyone of those 5, or that each alliance member ques one of them and he could maybe be winning first. The fact is that he didn't do this and others have. Winning is not just about being able to win matches, but having strategy that's better than anyone else while winning matches.

GothicKratos

sagapo wrote:

Also there are different aspect of PvP, if it's 3v3 PvP, then coordination is a must. However, this game is mostly 1v1, and even then it's against the AI, so I fail to see why you need to coordinate?

It gives them an advantage. That's it.

LXSandman

GothicKratos wrote:

It gives them an advantage. That's it.

You are right Gothic. That's the simplified answer - It gives you an advantage to coordinate out of the game.

Here is a question though - Do people think it's right that you should get an advantage by using a source external to the game? If you use scripting to get an advantage in another game isn't that considered cheating? Clearly the developers don't mind people doing this, so I have to assume they don't consider it cheating at all. I imagine they are quite happy with how the system works right now, since everyone needs to buy shields and do hops.... and I imagine that shield hoping might be less common if you couldn't coordinate to get large targets.

I don't know... It's a messed up system... but i don't see it changing anytime soon.

JVReal

LXSandman wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

It gives them an advantage. That's it.

You are right Gothic. That's the simplified answer - It gives you an advantage to coordinate out of the game.

Here is a question though - Do people think it's right that you should get an advantage by using a source external to the game? If you use scripting to get an advantage in another game isn't that considered cheating? Clearly the developers don't mind people doing this, so I have to assume they don't consider it cheating at all. I imagine they are quite happy with how the system works right now, since everyone needs to buy shields and do hops.... and I imagine that shield hoping might be less common if you couldn't coordinate to get large targets.

I don't know... It's a messed up system... but i don't see it changing anytime soon.

I'd understand if it was a plug-in, or something... but LINE does not manipulate MPQ at all, doesn't even touch it. It's no different than playing on STEAM and talking to your friend on the phone about MPQ... it's just a chat app that in no way modifies or enhances MPQ as a program at all.

I like to use it to chat with Alliance mates while I'm in battles, and I get a frustrating AI cascade, so I hop out of the fight, vent for a second, they cheer me up, and i hop back in to salvage the battle. Using in-game communication I'd have to finish out the fight before being able to vent about it in chat to alliance mates.

OnesOwnGrief

sagapo wrote:

I left the comments about LINE out because installing an app for an app is something I don't want to do. I'd rather take the loss.

You can say I am not as competitive since I choose to not use outside coordination, and you're right, but I am competitive in every other aspect.

Also there are different aspect of PvP, if it's 3v3 PvP, then coordination is a must. However, this game is mostly 1v1, and even then it's against the AI, so I fail to see why you need to coordinate?

Anyway, the whole point is to ask the BA's/Dev's for a change for players that want to compete without the need of coordination.

Sir, what exactly is your issue? Not being able to perform as well as other people because of their "coordination"? Because from what I'm seeing is that you pick bad times to shield hop, you don't follow your scoreboard, you fail to understand that the top end will shield to protect their points from you, and that what you think is competitive is actually not. I do quite well for myself when I choose to and can easily place in top 5 depending on my bracket/effort I want to invest in PvP.


Me, out of majority of Django's members, do not actively participate in coordinating my attacks. I may extend a courtesy once I hit 1K and choose to go higher to ask if a person is shielded or not before I hit them but that's about as far as it goes. I don't participate any known truces between various alliances to make climbing easier or chats that would help me make 1300 even easier. This is a choice I made because I do not want to devote the time investment in doing such things. Your reasons for not doing something are your own but at least be intelligent enough to understand that due to those choices you are where you are. If you want to do better, make choices that will help that. Don't go crying on the forums that you want a particular aspect gone because you decided to make a choice that works against you.

On your comment that this is a 1v1 game? You're entirely incorrect. There are 499 other people in your bracket. Triple or more in your shard who are out to place as well. It is far from a 1v1 game in PvP. Despite facing mainly AI, points are real and you just haven't grasped that concept yet.

Unknown

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

sagapo wrote:

I left the comments about LINE out because installing an app for an app is something I don't want to do. I'd rather take the loss.

You can say I am not as competitive since I choose to not use outside coordination, and you're right, but I am competitive in every other aspect.

Also there are different aspect of PvP, if it's 3v3 PvP, then coordination is a must. However, this game is mostly 1v1, and even then it's against the AI, so I fail to see why you need to coordinate?

Anyway, the whole point is to ask the BA's/Dev's for a change for players that want to compete without the need of coordination.

Sir, what exactly is your issue? Not being able to perform as well as other people because of their "coordination"? Because from what I'm seeing is that you pick bad times to shield hop, you don't follow your scoreboard, you fail to understand that the top end will shield to protect their points from you, and that what you think is competitive is actually not. I do quite well for myself when I choose to and can easily place in top 5 depending on my bracket/effort I want to invest in PvP.


Me, out of majority of Django's members, do not actively participate in coordinating my attacks. I may extend a courtesy once I hit 1K and choose to go higher to ask if a person is shielded or not before I hit them but that's about as far as it goes. I don't participate any known truces between various alliances to make climbing easier or chats that would help me make 1300 even easier. This is a choice I made because I do not want to devote the time investment in doing such things. Your reasons for not doing something are your own but at least be intelligent enough to understand that due to those choices you are where you are. If you want to do better, make choices that will help that. Don't go crying on the forums that you want a particular aspect gone because you decided to make a choice that works against you.

On your comment that this is a 1v1 game? You're entirely incorrect. There are 499 other people in your bracket. Triple or more in your shard who are out to place as well. It is far from a 1v1 game in PvP. Despite facing mainly AI, points are real and you just haven't grasped that concept yet.

My issue was very clear, not being able to find targets worth points since I don't coordinate (and I feel that you don't need to, of course that's how it is today because that's what you MUST do in order to do well), I'm asking for that to change. I consistently hit 1k as well, and when the reward is worth it, 1.3k as well since it costs HP to do so. I'm not the only person with this issue, I am the person that is vocal about it to try and get it addressed, that's what the forums is for? Or maybe this should have been posted in the suggestions instead.

This is how the game IS, and I am asking for a change, not a big deal.

Lastly, let me help you clarify that my friend. It is a bracket of 500 people, but it is still 1v1. I am not facing 500 people in a match, that would be impossible to win. Hearthstone is 1v1 even with millions of players in the bracket. WoW Arena has 3v3, with many people in the bracket, it's still a 3v3 arena match. Marvel VS. Capcom 3 is 1v1 with 3 characters, still a 1v1... you get the idea. Each match in this game is a 1v1 with 3 characters, with the exception of survival nodes in PvE.

Points are real, no one said that it wasn't, however points are not easily obtained without communication!

Someone also suggested to spend ISO and search, this is what I've been doing, I probably spend 4 times the ISO and still can't find a good opponent, there are times when you do catch someone shield hopping though (this is all w/o communication). I don't mind spending ISO, but even when you spend a lot and still can't find anyone worth points? That's an issue.

scottee

sagapo wrote:

My issue was very clear, not being able to find targets worth points since I don't coordinate (and I feel that you don't need to, of course that's how it is today because that's what you MUST do in order to do well), I'm asking for that to change. I consistently hit 1k as well, and when the reward is worth it, 1.3k as well since it costs HP to do so. I'm not the only person with this issue, I am the person that is vocal about it to try and get it addressed, that's what the forums is for? Or maybe this should have been posted in the suggestions instead.

This is how the game IS, and I am asking for a change, not a big deal.

Lastly, let me help you clarify that my friend. It is a bracket of 500 people, but it is still 1v1. I am not facing 500 people in a match, that would be impossible to win. Hearthstone is 1v1. WoW Arena has 3v3, with many people in the bracket, it still is a 3v3 arena match. Each match in this game is a 1v1 with 3 characters, which the exception of survival nodes in PvE.

Points are real, no one said that it wasn't, however points are not easily obtained without communication!

Someone also suggested to spend ISO and search, this is what I've been doing, I probably spend 4 times the ISO and still can't find a good opponent, there are times when you do catch someone shield hopping though (this is all w/o communication). I don't mind spending ISO, but even when you spend a lot and still can't find anyone worth points? That's an issue.

There must be more strategy you're missing.

As a person who doesn't use Line and doesn't coordinate with alliance, it's possible to beat those on Line, but it takes more iso and time. While shielded, cycle through to find high point targets. When you don't find them, give it a rest and come back in 10 min. Close the app and re-open, and then search through targets again. You can increase your changes by checking at the times people are likely to be unshielded. Also, keep refreshing your leaderboard. (Hit my rank, top ranks, over and over.) If you're #2, watch for when #1 hops and save him in a node. Same if you're #1 and he's #2. The use that node later when he starts another hop (or right away if you caught him early in his hop). If not, save it for the end of the PVP and hit it with 3 min left.

There's a meta strategy, in addition to saving high point targets. You have to think like the other player you're competing against, and see when they're going to unshield/reshield. You have to figure out when others in your slice are probably going to hop. You have to anticipate when others are going to be looking to save YOU in a node.

Those who coordinate don't have more shields or more points available to them. It's the same for everyone. All they have is better timing. You can counter this with increased checking (helps to be OCD) and extra iso to cycle nodes.

Unknown

sagapo wrote:

but even when you spend a lot and still can't find anyone worth points? That's an issue.

If that's happening (hard to believe), then Shield out, so you don't lose your points.