Colognoisseur's Ranking of 4* Updated: 10/19

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  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx wrote:
    I strongly suspect that carnage's psychological value will drop significantly as more people start fighting him. He can be annoying, but no more so than other 4*s (I would argue less so than most other 4*s).

    I don't disagree in general, but based on the attacks I do see when he's on defense, right now its mostly players who have a roster strong enough to overwhelm it. i.e I'm not getting hit by 140 unboosted 3*s.
    Sure, the ap/damage ration on his red is better. But he still isn't doing all that much damage to anyone except the main target and 5k won't down any mainline tank, PLUS he does self damage. and the AI will never use it optimally, so it's defensive value is basically just that it only costs 7 ap. But it costs 7 ap in a color that most offensive teams want very badly, so it's heavily contested and relatively easy to deny. It's not a bad red, it's just not as good as other options that are near to the same level and self-accelerated.

    Green can hit hard, but it's expensive and situational. So it's no real threat in the ai's hands. Same with the black. If you play like an idiot against the black, it can get really painful very quickly. But the offensive player basically controls how bad it will get, so it's not that threatening on defense.

    It's not really about the defensive win persay, it's more about the skips, which is the only true defense. I mean, the AI doesn't play anything optimally. Splash/AoE damage tends to have a greater effect, because you can't hide (as you said, like what Jean can do better) . 5k + 2k to the supports for a relatively cheap cost means you take a risk going in with, say, your characters at 60% health. One bad cascade (the AI's winning mantra) and things can go haywire.

    Compared to his peers, which is what this thread ultimately is, I think Colog's got him about right. He's not IMHB or Jean, but he's in that next group of strong but not overwhelming characters. I (obviously) think he's well worth the cost if you don't have some of the top tier, but are ready to move to 4*. Kinda like me, where I don't have 3-4-5-6 on this list anywhere near ready.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    barrok wrote:
    I am a consistent 1000 in pvp and I have never seen KP really played. Does he show up in the climb from 1000 to 1300 or something? Or is his ranking high for PVE purposes?

    Good question. KP really isn't ideal for PVP because he's a bit slow. But I also think he kinda got lost in the grind of his release period. If you recall, he was released right in the middle of a mad crush in april/may that culminated in the Ultron event and the release of Switch and IMHB.

    So people correctly recognized that IMHB was better, and also had more covers for IMHB because he was effectively released twice (and had decent odds in ultron tokens).

    And shortly after that, we began the full "new 4* every other week* run that we are currently on. so I kinda think no one really ever circled back to KP and re-evaluated him with more covers; there was always another shiny 4* to consider instead.

    Overall KP is strong. His powers all synergize with each other, he can do a bunch of damage, and he has a bunch of health. The only problem is that he is countdown tile reliant, which is not usually a good thing in pvp. his biggest weakness is that he really needs two things to excel: (1) a black ap generator; and (2) a cheaper source of countdowns. There isn't yet one teammate that can provide both of those things.

    My own KP isn't quite ready for PVP trials yet, but i suspect that he will be good-but-not-great when boosted, or when paired with a countdown spawner like switch. I would also think there might be some synergy with 4* falcon who can accelerate all those countdowns. Even under-covered, he is actually pretty useful in PVE.
  • why wasn't this tagged...hmmm my stream will be interested in this
  • PolaresPolares Posts: 2,603 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2015
    Colognoisseur I would like to ask you specifically about Antman, why is so low in the list? I still dont have him maxed, but apart from his life not being too much I would think he is better than 4hor, Carnage and the Thing. Is there any special reason why you think he doesnt live up to his potential? or is it just simply that you dont see use for him contrary to those others?

    I am surprised we dont see more Antman - Carnage teams in PvP (but I suppose It is because Jean has eclipsed him completely like what happened with Fisk and IMHB)
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares wrote:
    I am surprised we dont see more Antman - Carnage teams in PvP (but I suppose It is because Jean has eclipsed him completely like what happened with Fisk and IMHB)
    Exactly that. Jean's purple does a better job of Carnage cleanup than Antman's blue, because the damage she inflicts ends matches quicker. It's great that Antman flips tiles, but his matches still become too grindy. Also, his abilities are so spammy, you almost always end up generating way more attack tiles than his blue can clean up, even at 5 covers. Especially if you're up against another Carnage.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares wrote:
    Colognoisseur I would like to ask you specifically about Antman, why is so low in the list? I still dont have him maxed, but apart from his life not being too much I would think he is better than 4hor, Carnage and the Thing. Is there any special reason why you think he doesnt live up to his potential? or is it just simply that you dont see use for him contrary to those others?

    I am surprised we dont see more Antman - Carnage teams in PvP (but I suppose It is because Jean has eclipsed him completely like what happened with Fisk and IMHB)


    i think the problem with antman is that he is a damage/special-tile support character. But his damaging powers aren't especially fast, and his special tile tricks are powerful, but all a bit fragile (relying on countdowns and traps). So overall he's the kind of character that sucks to play against in PVE, but isn't dominating in PVP (kind of like overleveled 2-power ragnarok. he couldn't do anything in PVP, but at level 300+ in PVE he was quite annoying because he could just cycle his red and green powers every single turn, and eventually that ground you down).

    Plus anyone who is buying covers now will probably just buy jean grey covers instead, since she performs a similar function, has decent aoe damage, and a dangerous (if not frequently triggered) passive ability.
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 768 Critical Contributor
    Polares wrote:
    Colognoisseur I would like to ask you specifically about Antman, why is so low in the list? I still dont have him maxed, but apart from his life not being too much I would think he is better than 4hor, Carnage and the Thing. Is there any special reason why you think he doesnt live up to his potential? or is it just simply that you dont see use for him contrary to those others?

    I am surprised we dont see more Antman - Carnage teams in PvP (but I suppose It is because Jean has eclipsed him completely like what happened with Fisk and IMHB)

    simonsez and Vhailorx have accurately summarized my feelings on Ant-Man. He is just too slow and the predicted great combination with Carnage has not come true. Both of those reasons are why he is so low. There might be another 4* which comes around which combines well with him but for right now he is another situational 4* who has his uses but PvP is not one of them.
  • Malcrof wrote:
    Nice list, i would move carnage down it though.. i have yet to see a single person in any PVP have him on their team.. saw plenty o Elektra (one of my personal fav's) but 0 Carnages...

    I use carnage Jean grey and scarlet. That's my go to team
    Then proX hulkbuster and CptAM-Sam Wilson (it was the thing but not anymore)
  • MarcusGravesMarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    just curious about KP for PvP with would he actually be better served at 5/5/3 as a yellow feeder/disruptor and still get the big damage on black? there's no other ability in the game that can directly feed 8 yellow AP into your AP pool out of nowhere like his purple while also possibly avoiding being hit by a dangerous power by destroying 6 AP of strongest color.

    purple at 5 lets you only need 2 more AP after use to fire off maggia pawns and use his black to get the immediate damage or just use the yellow to fuel someone else like cage to get off his devastating righteous uppercut faster.

    this would really be a more for fun use of him in PvP though probably.
  • I have him at 5/5/3 and combined with xdp he is awesome. Late game you can still use yellow for damage or cd's, but early you rush xdp purple and Fisk black. Good times. Too bad the CPU would jack this up on defense.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    just curious about KP for PvP with would he actually be better served at 5/5/3 as a yellow feeder/disruptor and still get the big damage on black? there's no other ability in the game that can directly feed 8 yellow AP into your AP pool out of nowhere like his purple while also possibly avoiding being hit by a dangerous power by destroying 6 AP of strongest color.

    purple at 5 lets you only need 2 more AP after use to fire off maggia pawns and use his black to get the immediate damage or just use the yellow to fuel someone else like cage to get off his devastating righteous uppercut faster.

    this would really be a more for fun use of him in PvP though probably.

    In PVP 5/5/3 wouldn't be much of a detriment because the cooldowns are relatively hard to use in a pvp match, and certainly aren't very reliable.

    But purple at 5 just doesn't get much for you. Yes, 8 yellow AP is nice. But 3 already gives you 5 per cast, and the difference in ap destruction is negligible. Additionally, there is a pretty serious lack of great yellow powers to fuel (basically just lazy thor and cage).

    so I think that 5/3/5 gives you almost all the functionality of 5/5/3, but it also lets you produce many more countdowns for PVE utility and for the odd pvp match when they last long enough to matter (or fueling the black). I think you are better off bringing a black battery for kingpin instead of using him to produce yellow for a different partner.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    he is another situational 4* who has his uses but PvP is not one of them.
    By "situational", are you thinking as a flipper vs. characters like muscle goons or blade, or have you figured out a better niche for him?
  • RhycarRhycar Age Unconfirmed Posts: 107 Tile Toppler
    Colognoisseur, what character would you consider the top 3* and where would that character fall in your rankings? Are there multiple 3* you think are better than at least one 4*? Obviously, someone like Cyclops has more value than Devil Dino, but I'm wondering just how much the lists would overlap.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rhycar wrote:
    Colognoisseur, what character would you consider the top 3* and where would that character fall in your rankings? Are there multiple 3* you think are better than at least one 4*? Obviously, someone like Cyclops has more value than Devil Dino, but I'm wondering just how much the lists would overlap.


    I am not colog, so take my advice fwiw, but I ring fist is hands down the best 3*. He is a bit squishy, but his free attack tile damage and black acceleration, and great so/damage ratio for the purple is the best overall package in the game right now.

    Some other top tier 3*s in no particular order are cage, cyclops, khan, and switch. There are others that are very good when boosted, but those 5 are generally the only one I will consider using even when unboosted. (and there is probably one that I am forgetting.
  • MarcusGravesMarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    Vhailorx wrote:

    I am not colog, so take my advice fwiw, but I ring fist is hands down the best 3*. He is a bit squishy, but his free attack tile damage and black acceleration, and great so/damage ratio for the purple is the best overall package in the game right now.

    Some other top tier 3*s in no particular order are cage, cyclops, khan, and switch. There are others that are very good when boosted, but those 5 are generally the only one I will consider using even when unboosted. (and there is probably one that I am forgetting.

    Doom is good as well unboosted considering he is the 2nd best black feeder, can blow apart a character with his purple, has a decent back up black that can help push people into a purple kill and has the above average 3* health of 9690 HP

    then of course there is Thor and Blade who see frequent use and I tend to avoid Blade just because his passive can make me take unwanted levels of damage like iron fist, I've had games where his thirst triggers 3 times quickly and the damage gets out of control on a cascade.
  • RhycarRhycar Age Unconfirmed Posts: 107 Tile Toppler
    Vhailorx wrote:

    I am not colog, so take my advice fwiw, but I ring fist is hands down the best 3*. He is a bit squishy, but his free attack tile damage and black acceleration, and great so/damage ratio for the purple is the best overall package in the game right now.

    Some other top tier 3*s in no particular order are cage, cyclops, khan, and switch. There are others that are very good when boosted, but those 5 are generally the only one I will consider using even when unboosted. (and there is probably one that I am forgetting.

    Doom is good as well unboosted considering he is the 2nd best black feeder, can blow apart a character with his purple, has a decent back up black that can help push people into a purple kill and has the above average 3* health of 9690 HP

    then of course there is Thor and Blade who see frequent use and I tend to avoid Blade just because his passive can make me take unwanted levels of damage like iron fist, I've had games where his thirst triggers 3 times quickly and the damage gets out of control on a cascade.

    But where would you think those 3* you mentioned fall in the order of 4* rankings? Is Iron Fist better than IW? Than Xforce Wolvie? Than Fury? That's what I'm really trying to figure out to get a sense of how to prioritize my ISO use.

    And thank you for your response.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rhycar wrote:
    Vhailorx wrote:

    I am not colog, so take my advice fwiw, but I ring fist is hands down the best 3*. He is a bit squishy, but his free attack tile damage and black acceleration, and great so/damage ratio for the purple is the best overall package in the game right now.

    Some other top tier 3*s in no particular order are cage, cyclops, khan, and switch. There are others that are very good when boosted, but those 5 are generally the only one I will consider using even when unboosted. (and there is probably one that I am forgetting.

    Doom is good as well unboosted considering he is the 2nd best black feeder, can blow apart a character with his purple, has a decent back up black that can help push people into a purple kill and has the above average 3* health of 9690 HP

    then of course there is Thor and Blade who see frequent use and I tend to avoid Blade just because his passive can make me take unwanted levels of damage like iron fist, I've had games where his thirst triggers 3 times quickly and the damage gets out of control on a cascade.

    But where would you think those 3* you mentioned fall in the order of 4* rankings? Is Iron Fist better than IW? Than Xforce Wolvie? Than Fury? That's what I'm really trying to figure out to get a sense of how to prioritize my ISO use.

    And thank you for your response.

    Given the cost difference and the ease of getting covers from ddq, you Wil get way more out of putting iso in 3*s than 4*s, with the possible exceptions of prof x, imhb, and Jean grey. If you have 10ish covers for those (and five in their key powers), they they are probably top priority until they get to 200 or so. Then fill out your 3* roster (no need for 166 with weaker 3*s, 130 or 140 is fine for anyone you only use when boosted).

    It's also worth stockpiling at least 100k iso. Never know when it will be useful to throw some levels on someone when in a weekly boosted lineup.
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    My list:

    1) Jean Grey
    2) Hulkbuster
    3) 4Pool
    4) Thing
    5) PX
    6) Kingpin
    7) Fury
    8) XFW
    9) Carnage
    10) 4-Thor
    11) Ant-Man
    12) Elektra
    13) Star-Lord
    14) IW
    15) DD

    I would probably put Captain Falcon at 7.5 and Mr. Fantastic at 10.5. Ice will probably be somewhere in the top 5.

    I think XFW got a big boost from 4Pool and I think will be good friends with Iceman.
    I hate fighting Fury because he always gets in a Demolition and I always match it with my first move, no matter the odds. Thing doesn't seem to jump in front of trap tiles.

    Jean is tops in my book. Her AoE attacks are both excellent and her blue cover is an excellent way to fight off the battery powered parties.

    I'm not as high on PX because I just don't see him as a threat on D in PvP. He's very team and/or luck dependent, so I can't place him at the top of the game.

    Hulkbuster is a big cannon, but his ability only takes down one of my party. His lack of an AoE means that I can sucker him in to attacking either a very powerful tank or force him to overkill a weakened party member. That's why I give Jean the edge.

    Climbing with 4Pool is a breeze. His red and purple do so much damage and can be combined in many ways. His black is an excellent light-weight deterrent or a big chop depending on the number of covers. His abilities can all be wiped out by Jean if she's banked her AP. Works very well with Thing: Thing jumps in front, plants some protect tiles, and 4Pool drops his counterattack. Thing also blows up CD4W tiles with his green. Those things have moved him way up (even more so than his pairing with Reed Richards).

    I don't have KP well covered, so I can only go by what I've seen fighting him. He's got a ton of health and can deliver quick damage with some moderate AP theft. My estimation of him may change when I finish covering him.

    I'm not that high on Carnage. His Green never does the damage at 5 covers that you think it would. He has some excellent pairings (like with my favorite JG) at 5/5/3, so I might work on getting out of the green cover game to see if that helps. He isn't the scarecrow that we all assumed that he would be. With more self-healing characters coming up (Surfer, MRF, 4Pool), and with the healthpack boost from 5 to 10 since his launch, he just doesn't scare people off the way he should.

    4-Thor has a ton of health, but her abilities are very slow. A victim of powercreep. Her charged tiles can be as big a boon to your enemy and you need way too many of them. She might become good friends with Silver Surfer, especially if the inevitable 4* rebalance comes.

    I don't know enough about Ant-Man. I don't see him around much. I don't have him well covered. He just seems like a novelty and not a real threat. When I see him in PvP, I actually will fight that team, just for the novelty of fighting something different, which is not something you are looking for.

    Elektra suffers from a terrible purple and powercreep. Her black can be great and her red can do a ton of damage if left out long enough, but with the way boards shake these days, her trap tile isn't a safe bet for the AP cost.

    Star-Lord is a Yellow team-up that I love to have in my collection. Other than that, he's just a party favor.

    IW was my first 4*. I had her in my roster with a random token pull in my first three weeks playing. She had a single blue cover for about 7 months before I ever got another. Even though her single blue cover used to cost 14 blue AP and all it did was put out a single force field on a selected tile, I forced myself to keep her. She never really got any better, even with the rebalance.

    I'm on day 309, so no Dancing Dino for me. Not a threat, seems to attract people to attack you for the novelty of fighting something different.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    In response to Buret's post.

    (1) I agree that Jean Grey is looking like the top of heap at the moment, with strong aoe and a great passive power for PVP defense. I still think her powers are a bit slow, so she remains somewhat balanced. But her passive power is very good at its designed purpose: countering ap-acceleration teams that otherwise dominate pvp.

    (2) Prof X is fairly well balanced. He is devastating with the right partners, but is mostly a pvp character

    (3) I think that elektra is a bit better than Buret. None of her powers are bad. But all of them are way way too fragile. it's entirely possible to cast any of them and get basically nothing for the ap cost. I maintain that her design is still a lot of fun. a simple tweak for each of her powers would be to allow for the first cast of her purple to have some positive effect even if the board is empty. Her black should be a little bit cheaper, or else should offer more protection against cascades (it sucks to have all 5 trap tiles eat by a cheesey cascade effect like mischief and then get slammed by an ability right after). And her red needs to have some effect if matched away.

    (4) I still think 9 is too high for Carnage. He is just a poor design. And his utility goes week over week as his health becomes less of a standout feature, and people realize that he just isn't that dangerous on defense (deny red, bring a stun, and boom, he is useless. What's more there are plenty of great 4* red powers and stuns are almost always useful, so these requirements have basically no downsides).

    (5) There is starting to be a pretty clear middle class of 4*s now, with solid, but hardly PVP dominating characters like 4* falcon, ant-man, carnage, Xforce Wolvie, 4* Thor, and Kingpin. All of these characters are strong enough to be useful in their own niche. They are also clearly better than the 4* weaklings of star-lord, etc. But they can't really compete with big 4 PVP 4*s (IMHB, JG, Thing, 4* Deadpool).

    (6) I anticipate that Bobby Drake is about to join the top tier, as he looks to be the type of character design that does very well in both PVP and PVE.
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 768 Critical Contributor
    Added Sam Wilson and Mr. Fantastic to the rankings. Also significant shift at the top. Explanation is attached to the first post.
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