Colognoisseur's Ranking of 4* Updated: 10/19

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  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2015
    simonsez wrote:
    Elektra is more of a scarecrow than Carnage, HB, XDP? Does anyone here with a maxed Elektra find this to be true? (does anyone have a maxed Elektra??)

    I fought a 350 one in the WoM event. Her black does have a "if you screw up, she'll punish you" element to it, but otherwise she's pretty easy, compared to those three at least.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    I've had to face Thing, XDP, and HB many times and feel like I can defeat them more often than not.
    Elektra is more of a scarecrow than Carnage, HB, XDP? Does anyone here with a maxed Elektra find this to be true? (does anyone have a maxed Elektra??)

    I fought a 350 one in the WoM event. Her black does have a "if you screw up, she'll punish you" element to it, but otherwise she's pretty easy, compared to those three at least.[/quote]

    I have her at 12/13 covers and around 200. She is fun when she works. I have been in more than a few matches where things were looking really grim early on, while I gathered 14 purple and 10 black (and maybe 8 red). and then won the match in 3 turns after firing purple twice, plus black and red. When they work properly, those powers can add up to several thousand points of strikes tiles that tick at the beginning of each turn, with each match, and again whenever the enemy bounces off a black trap. But most characters are fun and effective with the caveat "just give me 32 ap in my preferred colors first!"

    That said, she is definitely easier to fight than Thing or XDP (who really mess things up with their "you must target me first powers"), and probably about on par with IMHB (both can be quite deadly deadly if they get their powers off, but can also be defeated with ap denial).
  • MarcusGravesMarcusGraves Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    fought a few 5/5/3 KP's in divine champions paired with 3* thor and needless to say I was sweating bullets between thor red and KP purple speeding towards a thunder strike and a possible CotS.

    when thunder strike wouldn't go off and maggia pawns did instead and he poked me really hard.....
  • 1.) Hulkbuster
    2.) Jean Grey
    3.) Iceman
    4.) X-Force Deadpool
    5.) Thing
    6.) Professor X
    7.) Carnage
    8.) Kingpin
    9.) 4* Thor
    10.) Ant-Man
    11.) Mr. Fantastic
    12.) Sam Wilson Cap America
    13.) X-Force Wolverine
    14.) Fury
    15.) Electra
    16.) Invisible Woman
    17.) Star-Lord
    18.) Devil Dinosaur

    Just my opinion, and I'm not any sort of roster expert. I had a harder time with 8-13 than any other part of my list.
  • RhycarRhycar Age Unconfirmed Posts: 107 Tile Toppler
    Really interested to see where you have Iceman. I'm almost thinking he's now first or second ahead of IMHB. Though Jean is probably slightly better.
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    1) Jean Grey (1)
    2) Iceman (new)
    3) Hulkbuster (2)
    4) 4Pool (3)

    5) Thing (4)
    6) PX (5)
    7) XFW (8)
    8) Kingpin (6)
    9) Carnage (9)
    10) Red Hulk (new)

    11) Fury (7)
    12) Captain Falcon (new)
    13) 4-Thor (10)
    14) MRF (new)
    15) Cyclops (new)
    16) Ant-Man (11)

    17) Elektra (12)
    18) Star-Lord (13)
    19) IW (14)
    20) DD (15)

    The rankings are grouped as:
    (1-4) Top of the class;
    (5-10) Still very useful;
    (11-16) Can be slotted in when buffed; and
    (17-20) Fallen and can't get up.

    Iceman has been the only new character to really knock my socks off. Excellent AoE, a 4 turn stun + nuke, and a red drain that creates tiles that power the other two abilities. He enters the board just behind Jean. With a powerful new ally in Red Hulk, I see him getting a lot of use going forward.

    Maybe I've just never gotten to play with a well covered Cyclops, but so far I haven't been impressed with how he plays or how he is played against me. The AI will often drop his blue power somewhere with no reds, wasting a powerful battery opportunity. The yellow is often available with no team-up matches available (and the AI matches his own yellow away), meaning that 2/3 abilities are wasted by the AI. That doesn't give me a ton of confidence when deciding who will be on my team.

    Mr. Fantastic has a broken black ability and a blue that was immediately surpassed by Iceman. His healing ability is his only really strong one, which makes him a support character at best. His AP generation is extremely limited because his friend choices aren't great.

    Red Hulk might move up because of his powerful purple ability and his high maximum health, but I remain disappointed in his green AoE: his only attack. When 5* characters become more frequent, I see his stock rising, as you will see him activate his red every time your opponent deals match damage. That said, his red ability does not scale nearly as well over 3 covers as his other abilities, meaning that the 5 red cover hulks are likely to become more popular in the second generation of builds (most of the early builds are going to be 3/5/5).

    Captain Falcon has tremendous damage capability. When boosted, I cleared more than 22K damage in a single attack. That said, the broken CD tile model in this game means that his blue passive can hurt you (reducing a random friendly CD tile). Given that most of the recent CD tiles in this game give you power UNTIL the CD reaches 0, CF's blue matching only makes sense in certain team combinations. Like his two new friends with blue active abilities, Ice and Cyclops. You want to make blue matches to power up their stun and AP gathering moves, but they also have CDs that you want to keep active. His best friend is switch, but his secondary power to buff special tiles doesn't work with many third characters (the exception being that time IF/SW/CF were all boosted at the same time). His red ability can be devastating, but is also very slow and requires protect tiles to work well and you know the AI is going to have trouble with this. On offense he might become necessary to take down some of the well covered 5*s, but he's too easy to neutralize on D.

    As far as the bottom 4 in the rankings, they are characters that really need a hand. Situational use of them can be fun, like when I beat Galactus with Devil Dino, StarLord, and Prof X just by hammering away on the dancing and filling the board with special tiles. You can't count on the AI to spam too many victories with this team, and even if they were all buffed, I'm not sure I would ever seriously use this team. Yes, 1 purple AP dancing into PC is a laugh (and I bet playing this team would be super annoying with the animations), but these characters need a buff to make them everyday playable.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't have a usable cyc, but after playing some cover maxed ones, I think you're vastly underrating him. Maybe part of that has to do with the way his blue is currently working, but I've gotten hit hard by him every time. On the other hand, the AI doesn't play Iceman well at all. I've played plenty of them by now, and at most, have only gotten hit by green or double blue once or twice.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    I don't have a usable cyc, but after playing some cover maxed ones, I think you're vastly underrating him. Maybe part of that has to do with the way his blue is currently working, but I've gotten hit hard by him every time. On the other hand, the AI doesn't play Iceman well at all. I've played plenty of them by now, and at most, have only gotten hit by green or double blue once or twice.

    Cheap unscrewupable power which focuses on TUs that the AI is obsessed with. Plus it only has one TU to drain with, so if that TU is cheap (and it burns quick) or expensive enough it hoards the AP, his red will hurt.

    Yeah, the AI should be able to play him pretty well, as long as you don't overlap the yellow on defense.

    I think Bureto's got the right idea about tiers though. I label them like this (which is mostly the same, just different wording)

    1) Top tier - used everywhere
    2) Strong - Good enough to be your #1, but really better as a #2.
    3) Decent - PvE good, PvP not really strong enough on their own
    4) Bad - Niche use in PvE (like Elektra vs Muscle) but otherwise taking up space.

    Within the tiers themselves, I think any order is debatable. I personally move a few of his up and down tiers, but it's so preference based it's hard to really kill a ranking unless you see IW in the top tier or something wacky.
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 768 Critical Contributor
    Just updated OP with Iceman and Cyclops
  • Marc_SpectorMarc_Spector Posts: 581 Critical Contributor
    edited October 2015
    Just updated OP with Iceman and Cyclops

    Thanks, Colognoisseur!

    I also saw your Red Hulk pop up in versus! icon_e_smile.gif Very eager to hear your overall thoughts on him once you've had some more time to try him out - he's a character I've been waiting a long time for.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    . With Red Hulk or Iceman it generated green which allowed getting to the aoe nuke quicker.

    Wouldn't Cyc's yellow generate red with Red Hulk?
  • Does anyone have any advice if i should chuck away my DD?

    I have some important 3*(IF, Loki) to slot in, but I am unsure if i should chuck the 4* DD
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 768 Critical Contributor
    . With Red Hulk or Iceman it generated green which allowed getting to the aoe nuke quicker.

    Wouldn't Cyc's yellow generate red with Red Hulk?


    Yes I stand corrected. I was getting green during Dino PvP and assumed it was coming from Red Hulk and not dino. But both cyke and Red Hulk are with red as highest power. So accelerating green with cyke's yellow only works with iceman in center position. Although if you are using cyke and red hulk as a pair it will be like Professor X it will be generating whom ever is the featured character in the PvP.
  • My 4* rankings (Colognoisseur rank after) - comments follow
    These rankings primarily reflect "pvp strength" though some "pve value" is reflected as well. I have 10 max 4* & another 5 at lvl185-220 (only missing Red Hulk & Thing among the top 14). Additionally I have played against all extensively except Red Hulk

    The rankings are grouped as:
    (1-3) The true elite (few issues) - Use always with no concern
    (4-7) Elite Support & 2nd tier damage (issues exist) - Use when buffed or to support buffed elite
    (8-12) 2nd tier support & 3rd tier damage (issues are troublesome but workable) - Use only when buffed & if they provide more value than the weekly buffed 3* options
    (13-16) Situational group (issues are extreme) - Use only when buffed and no better options exist in 3* or 4*
    (17-20) Low value (issues are hard to overcome) - Use only if particularly like the characters or if you like a challenge

    1) Jean Grey (2)
    2) Iceman (1)
    3) Hulkbuster (3)

    4) Carnage (10)
    5) Cyclops (4)
    6) Deadpool (5)
    7) Red Hulk (top 10)

    8) Thing (7)
    9) 4-Thor (9)
    10) PX (6)
    11) XFW (13)
    12) Kingpin (8)

    13) Antman (14)
    14) Fury (12)
    15) Captain Falcon (11)
    16) Elektra (15)

    17) Star-Lord (17)
    18) IW (18)
    19) Mr F (16)
    20) DD (19)


    Comments
    1) Jean Grey - strong AOE. Purple removes 6 specials. Stops 5match. Have to plan your match around her
    2) Iceman - strongest "normal" AOE (red hulk has 2 phases in reality). The best stun by far in the game. Can stop red power use which is one of the more prevalent colors atm.
    3) Hulkbuster - strongest "normal" KO damage (not counting weird scenarios. Just AP collection). Black strikes are "maybe" his best power since it comes w 9 red AP (enough for an instant attack if desired) & fairly inconsequential self damage (considering his overall health). Probably the fastest 4* when paired w Iron Fist tho that pairing is slowly starting to fail from Iron Fist's lack of health. That helps limit him to #3 cause he is slower to finish a match alone compared to the top 2

    4) Carnage - top defensive scarecrow. 4-6 characters will be dead by the end of the match (minimized w JG or Antman). Red power is among the best strength per AP value in the game. The green is a match ender late but not powered up enough early which keeps him from elite status
    5) Cyclops - only universal 4* AP battery. All other 4* only generate one color of AP whereas cyclops can generate several different kinds of AP depending on team setup. Huge nuke that works for ending a match but isn't good early. Blue is situational
    6) Deadpool - awesome KO & true heal move. Awesome mid & late in match. Purple is awesome w xf or thing but mixed bag w the rest. Black is good but can easily be planned around by elite players (it's almost guaranteed death for any 3* roster other than stunning XPool)
    7) Red Hulk (top 10) - best AOE in the game when at max. The 4* version of BWGS. Purple => green is fearsome & stops JG/Iceman teams a bit. The red damage is kinda pointless and potentially problematic if cascades work against your special tiles

    8) Thing - strong KO moves. The stun is a nice bonus. The passive protects are great but can easily be worked around by elite players. The KO moves have a lot of board destruction. That can be good or bad. I'd say generally bad at 4* level
    9) 4-Thor - strong stun. Can remove specials. Red has some nice KO power. Only ranked this low because "power creep" has made everyone else stronger in comparison. Last of the usable in pvp past 1000 independent of teammates (meaning she can put down 2-3 people on her own perhaps if need be. No one lower can say the same w/o teammate support)
    10) PX - awesome in support. Has been neutered some by JG. Once he goes invisible things can get favorable for your team fast. Not much KO power on his own so you better win quickly or hide w invisibility (which can be mitigated by AOE or he would rank much higher). Much higher in pve rankings
    11) XFW - situationally useful w black power. XPool value lifts his since xf black destroys all XPool purple. Green is useless. Yellow is ok at 5 but the cd is too long tbh. It's more for damage in general
    12) Kingpin - black power is one of the best damage per AP values in the game w constant CDs out (like w SW as a teammate). Very self sustaining purple => yellow => black. This is countered w the fact that he is quite slow to hit full power. Needs support. With strong support he is top 5 & is a top 5 pve type w that team around him


    13) Antman - pve specialist except when paired w carnage. Quite powerful w carnage because he can control carnage effectively by launching blue then purple to start carnage insanity. Matches w him can be like fighting downhill by the end of the match. No KO power tho limits him from higher tier
    14) Fury - blue power will kill or seriously wound someone if fury isn't killed quick. Yellow doesn't do enough damage relative to AP collecte (even if the rest of the rainbow AP isnt used, it takes awhile to collect). Purple is underpowered nowadays & the CD never hits. Fairly strong when buffed. Needs AP boosts to be useful even when buffed tho
    15) Captain Falcon - very underrated red attack. Can be incredibly powerful but is very slow. Very rarely seen in pvp. Might even be ranked too high. Red power probably prevents that but he is very limited
    16) Elektra - purple strike ability is very underrated. Particularly against HB. She can steal his strikes (which are often thought of as a top 5 overall power in MPQ atm). Her black trap can cause trouble late in the match as well since they can cause tons of AP waste. Her red is horrible & is easily overwritten by anyone

    17) Star-Lord - all powers are CD based. The powers are kinda useful if they can land. Not at all guaranteed Tho. Also even if they do hit they generally are a better option than almost any other 4* (meaning you'd leave SL alive in comparison to almost any 4* so his powers might hit)
    18) IW - slightly more useful than Mr F because the very slow blue to green actually can explode w some power. Also invisibility > passive health increase
    19) Mr F - basically useless other than a way to extend match time. No KO power at all. More useless than IW since he has no way to win alone
    20) DD - basically useless other than a meat shield

    Edited:4-Thor ranking to 9 from 12. Comments on 4-Thor & Antman
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    simonsez wrote:
    I don't have a usable cyc, but after playing some cover maxed ones, I think you're vastly underrating him. Maybe part of that has to do with the way his blue is currently working, but I've gotten hit hard by him every time. On the other hand, the AI doesn't play Iceman well at all. I've played plenty of them by now, and at most, have only gotten hit by green or double blue once or twice.

    That could be true, I'm just seeing AI cyclops wasting 2/3 abilities.

    Mine is still only 3/2/3 and level 146, so I haven't had a lot of time to play around with him on O. New character rankings are tough because very few people have them maxed and because they are boosted for all of the events. In a month I'll have a better idea of where these new characters fit in.

    Again, I think Ice is going to play well with Red Hulk and that extra green AP generation, so we are going to see White Out fire faster. Cyclops can also build that green AP for Ice, but on D it is a lot easier to get the AI to play nice with Ice and Red. It is the same reason switch is a good battery: the AI can't keep screwing up his own blue AP generation forever.
  • I don't think that AI playability should play a large role in ranking different 4*
    Red Hulk will be played poorly by AI cause it will always use the 9 green attack vs 18 green. Does that make him worse on offense? No

    4clops is great on offense but is played kinda crazy by AI. Many characters are not played well by AI. It's why JG is the best. She is impossible for the AI to mess up. But 4clops does makes a match quicker on offense as support. That's a good reason to be used regardless of weakness on defense. That is also mitigated a bit by the fact his health is much better than any 3* support
  • Buret0Buret0 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,591
    I don't think that AI playability should play a large role in ranking different 4*
    Red Hulk will be played poorly by AI cause it will always use the 9 green attack vs 18 green. Does that make him worse on offense? No

    4clops is great on offense but is played kinda crazy by AI. Many characters are not played well by AI. It's why JG is the best. She is impossible for the AI to mess up. But 4clops does makes a match quicker on offense as support. That's a good reason to be used regardless of weakness on defense. That is also mitigated a bit by the fact his health is much better than any 3* support

    D is half of PvP. Scaring away the competition allows for an easier float and a better climb.

    That being said, I upgraded my cyc to 5/2/5 (last yellow to come at 1000 in PvP) and he plays a lot better on O (even at level 148 boosted to less than max). I paired him with surfer to make blue the strongest color, which leads to a ton of those 5x5 blue abilities being active when you match team ups using his active yellow.

    Again, I'll reevaluate his position after a month of use, but he is going to be more useful than I had indicated.

    As far as Red Hulk goes, the damage per AP boost isn't that significant from 9 to 18. IIRC, the boost goes from about 300 damage per AP to about 400 (900/1200 if the whole team is still alive). The AI isn't going to screw up Red that badly... and having the AI wait around for 18 green AP will likely just lead to losing more battles anyway.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't think that AI playability should play a large role in ranking different 4*
    Define "large". It shouldn't be your #1 criterion, but you can't ignore it either. No one wants to run a formation that says "hit me because the AI doesn't know how to hurt you with this group"
  • DrLemniscateDrLemniscate Posts: 55 Match Maker
    Something to factor in for the maths on Rulk is that his Green will consume all green AP if over 18. Since the damage is static instead of scaling with AP, this means the damage per AP takes a hit. You will often be at 19 or 20 AP when activating it.

    For an AI piloting Rulk, they usually fire his Green when it is available (under 18 AP), unless they manage to sequence his Purple to get above 18. Worst case scenario is firing his purple when already at high Green AP.

    AI defense should play at least a small part in ranking. The AI would not play any of Cyke's abilities near optimum: targeting red for cascades, avoiding matching yellow tile and saving TU matches for when it is out, and targeting Blue for most reds or other purposes. On the other hand, JG can easily be played by the AI close to her potential. Your only losses are not intentionally setting up bad match 5s, and possible sequencing or timing of Purple and Green to play around opponent abilities
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    For an AI piloting Rulk, they usually fire his Green when it is available (under 18 AP), unless they manage to sequence his Purple to get above 18. Worst case scenario is firing his purple when already at high Green AP.

    AI will always cast the green before purple. So even if it stumbles into 11 green, 7 purple at the same time, you'll get with the weak attack and then he'll reload the green.
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