Colognoisseur's Ranking of 4* Updated: 10/19
Comments
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Buret0 wrote:simonsez wrote:I don't have a usable cyc, but after playing some cover maxed ones, I think you're vastly underrating him. Maybe part of that has to do with the way his blue is currently working, but I've gotten hit hard by him every time. On the other hand, the AI doesn't play Iceman well at all. I've played plenty of them by now, and at most, have only gotten hit by green or double blue once or twice.
That could be true, I'm just seeing AI cyclops wasting 2/3 abilities.
Mine is still only 3/2/3 and level 146, so I haven't had a lot of time to play around with him on O. New character rankings are tough because very few people have them maxed and because they are boosted for all of the events. In a month I'll have a better idea of where these new characters fit in.
Again, I think Ice is going to play well with Red Hulk and that extra green AP generation, so we are going to see White Out fire faster. Cyclops can also build that green AP for Ice, but on D it is a lot easier to get the AI to play nice with Ice and Red. It is the same reason switch is a good battery: the AI can't keep screwing up his own blue AP generation forever.
I think you are both right. 4*clops falls into the large(ish) category of characters that are very strong offensively, but total **** when played by the AI (and IMO it sucks that he consumes the teamup ap when using his nuke). Those characters are generally relegated to PVE use or occasional PVP duty when boosted (think 3* Cap).
I think there is one extra wildcard in this evaluation at the moment, which is that 4*clops is perhaps the best available 4* to provide AP acceleration (arguably iceman is better if you want blue ap and don't care about red). demiurge has been pretty gun-shy about self-accelerating, so 4*clops might see more use as a battery than he otherwise would. I think he will ultimately settle in as a mid-tier 4* that excels in PVE, but in the short term he may have slightly more prominence as a support.0 -
Vhailorx wrote:Buret0 wrote:simonsez wrote:I don't have a usable cyc, but after playing some cover maxed ones, I think you're vastly underrating him. Maybe part of that has to do with the way his blue is currently working, but I've gotten hit hard by him every time. On the other hand, the AI doesn't play Iceman well at all. I've played plenty of them by now, and at most, have only gotten hit by green or double blue once or twice.
That could be true, I'm just seeing AI cyclops wasting 2/3 abilities.
Mine is still only 3/2/3 and level 146, so I haven't had a lot of time to play around with him on O. New character rankings are tough because very few people have them maxed and because they are boosted for all of the events. In a month I'll have a better idea of where these new characters fit in.
Again, I think Ice is going to play well with Red Hulk and that extra green AP generation, so we are going to see White Out fire faster. Cyclops can also build that green AP for Ice, but on D it is a lot easier to get the AI to play nice with Ice and Red. It is the same reason switch is a good battery: the AI can't keep screwing up his own blue AP generation forever.
I think you are both right. 4*clops falls into the large(ish) category of characters that are very strong offensively, but total **** when played by the AI (and IMO it sucks that he consumes the teamup ap when using his nuke). Those characters are generally relegated to PVE use or occasional PVP duty when boosted (think 3* Cap).
I think there is one extra wildcard in this evaluation at the moment, which is that 4*clops is perhaps the best available 4* to provide AP acceleration (arguably iceman is better if you want blue ap and don't care about red). demiurge has been pretty gun-shy about self-accelerating, so 4*clops might see more use as a battery than he otherwise would. I think he will ultimately settle in as a mid-tier 4* that excels in PVE, but in the short term he may have slightly more prominence as a support.
I usually try to cover chars so they are useful on their own, so if one char has an offensive ability that is good I usually go for this one (this is why my 3 cyclops is 5/3/5 or my DrDoom is also 5/3/5), but in this case, and as you said Cyclops is the only 4 that can work as a pure accelerator (the only other 4 as good as cyclops is probably IMHB, but you NEED to max his red).
I see cyclops as someone who can substitute Hood or switch as the third member in the team, can fire blue and damage someone fast (as xforce use to do) and eventhough his red is good there is plenty of very good reds in the 4 space. So I think 3/5/5 for me.0 -
Polares wrote:Vhailorx wrote:Buret0 wrote:simonsez wrote:I don't have a usable cyc, but after playing some cover maxed ones, I think you're vastly underrating him. Maybe part of that has to do with the way his blue is currently working, but I've gotten hit hard by him every time. On the other hand, the AI doesn't play Iceman well at all. I've played plenty of them by now, and at most, have only gotten hit by green or double blue once or twice.
That could be true, I'm just seeing AI cyclops wasting 2/3 abilities.
Mine is still only 3/2/3 and level 146, so I haven't had a lot of time to play around with him on O. New character rankings are tough because very few people have them maxed and because they are boosted for all of the events. In a month I'll have a better idea of where these new characters fit in.
Again, I think Ice is going to play well with Red Hulk and that extra green AP generation, so we are going to see White Out fire faster. Cyclops can also build that green AP for Ice, but on D it is a lot easier to get the AI to play nice with Ice and Red. It is the same reason switch is a good battery: the AI can't keep screwing up his own blue AP generation forever.
I think you are both right. 4*clops falls into the large(ish) category of characters that are very strong offensively, but total **** when played by the AI (and IMO it sucks that he consumes the teamup ap when using his nuke). Those characters are generally relegated to PVE use or occasional PVP duty when boosted (think 3* Cap).
I think there is one extra wildcard in this evaluation at the moment, which is that 4*clops is perhaps the best available 4* to provide AP acceleration (arguably iceman is better if you want blue ap and don't care about red). demiurge has been pretty gun-shy about self-accelerating, so 4*clops might see more use as a battery than he otherwise would. I think he will ultimately settle in as a mid-tier 4* that excels in PVE, but in the short term he may have slightly more prominence as a support.
I usually try to cover chars so they are useful on their own, so if one char has an offensive ability that is good I usually go for this one (this is why my 3 cyclops is 5/3/5 or my DrDoom is also 5/3/5), but in this case, and as you said Cyclops is the only 4 that can work as a pure accelerator (the only other 4 as good as cyclops is probably IMHB, but you NEED to max his red).
I see cyclops as someone who can substitute Hood or switch as the third member in the team, can fire blue and damage someone fast (as xforce use to do) and eventhough his red is good there is plenty of very good reds in the 4 space. So I think 3/5/5 for me.
Agreed all around, but it comes down to cost vs. reward. For the accelerating 4*'s IMHB, Iceman, Cyc, PX, Kingpin, Rulk, StarLord, Thor, DevilDino and Mr. Fantastic. Some are just luck based, others solid. Of the 10 4*'s that accelerate AP or skills in some way or another only 6 are fully self-sufficient that's IMHB, Iceman, Cyc, KP, Rulk, SL. Thor is just on the outside but you could benefit the other team so I'll keep her out.
Now of those 6 are you trying to maximize acceleration or dmg.
IMHB--3/5/5 gets you to red the fastest but then its worthless. The risk of the 3/5/5 is that, the reward though over a 5/5/3 is very small because the increase AP you gain off of blue from 3-5 is small and doesnt outweigh going 5/5/3
Iceman--Just like IMHB, the diff in 3-5 purple for blue acceleration and extra dmg is small. In fact having purple at 3 actually increases the chance of your green doing more dmg as you have a less chance of blue getting matched upon creation.
Cyclops--Speed 3/5/5, Dmg 5/3/5. For me giving up red for the speed is not worth it, all you gain is 1 AP, just 1 from 3-5 the CD staying out longer is worthless, So while 3/5/5 makes him the best red and off red acclerator, giving up on red for such a small gain isn't worth it. I've done the math and 5/5/3 and 5/3/5 gets you to red at the same time in terms of matches, but 5/5/3 would allow you to match for others better but blue is really solid, thus I do think 5/3/5 is the only way, because yellow at 3 is still awesome, but red and blue and 3 suck.
Rulk--hands down purple is best skill, no questions. To me 3/5/5 is the only way, you go any other and you really gut your build.
SL--Dmg 5/3/5 speed anything with 5 yellow. SL is one guy I"m actually, yes I am, building a 2nd copy. I have a 5/5/3 but I want a 3/5/5 total support character to go alongside Jean or Bobby. SL as bad or as good as people beleive, he has no bad build. I went 5/5/3 with me first because I don't need his red and it's not guarenteed, but a 3/5/5 SL with a strong purple user is something that has me very intrigued
KP--5/3/5 or 5/5/3. This are essentially the same build when you think about it. 5/5/3 get you to the black plus CD tile combo faster, but 5/3/5 allows you to do it more often since you have 5 turns to get more black, I went 5/3/5 because the times that purple would have accelerated me faster was few, I think you give up too much utility and dmg with 5/5/3
So in short for Cyclops I get the reasoning for 3/5/5 but the tradeoff isn't worth it0 -
Phaserhawk wrote:
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Cyclops--Speed 3/5/5, Dmg 5/3/5. For me giving up red for the speed is not worth it, all you gain is 1 AP, just 1 from 3-5 the CD staying out longer is worthless, So while 3/5/5 makes him the best red and off red acclerator, giving up on red for such a small gain isn't worth it. I've done the math and 5/5/3 and 5/3/5 gets you to red at the same time in terms of matches, but 5/5/3 would allow you to match for others better but blue is really solid, thus I do think 5/3/5 is the only way, because yellow at 3 is still awesome, but red and blue and 3 suck.
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So in short for Cyclops I get the reasoning for 3/5/5 but the tradeoff isn't worth it
Agree completely on the other ones, but you missed a little the options yellow gives. You are assuming yellow will generate red, but maybe that is not going to be the case. Yellow can generate any color , so if you leave Cyclops slightly underleveled it can generate green for iceman, (if its a 220 level) purple for GSBW+ProfX, Purple for Jean, etc.
And it gives 4Ap for every 3 so you can fire JG every 3 matches, not 4, iceman can fire green every 3 matches (yeah I guess that doing 3 teamup matches is not easy), etc. And because is so cheap it is going to be on the board almost always.
Blue is a must for me, I wanted a power like this (similar to KP black) since XForce was nerfed. A pitty it is just for red tiles.
The big problem is that I usually dont use teamups, so I would have nothing to spend these AP, so red makes sense for me in that regard... Well mine is right now 1/4/3 so luck seems to be telling me that I need to go 3/5/5
When there are chars like Cyclops, I wish we would be able to respec any char before any match, that would give a new dimension to this game (you have 15 covers but you can use just 13 and you decide which ones before any game)0 -
Polares wrote:Agree completely on the other ones, but you missed a little the options yellow gives. You are assuming yellow will generate red, but maybe that is not going to be the case. Yellow can generate any color , so if you leave Cyclops slightly underleveled it can generate green for iceman, (if its a 220 level) purple for GSBW+ProfX, Purple for Jean, etc.
Counterpoint is if you're using with Jean/Prof/Iceman, you have no other red outlet for PvP, and you'll have the TU AP condition met since you've been collecting it to accelerate the others anyway. Since his blue generates red (and you'd use it except with Iceman), then you're quite likely to have the AP needed for the 11k nuke, so there's little point in neutering it.
Phaser summed it up well. Yellow is still very good at 3, Red and Blue are not. 5/3/5.0 -
GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:Polares wrote:Agree completely on the other ones, but you missed a little the options yellow gives. You are assuming yellow will generate red, but maybe that is not going to be the case. Yellow can generate any color , so if you leave Cyclops slightly underleveled it can generate green for iceman, (if its a 220 level) purple for GSBW+ProfX, Purple for Jean, etc.
Counterpoint is if you're using with Jean/Prof/Iceman, you have no other red outlet for PvP, and you'll have the TU AP condition met since you've been collecting it to accelerate the others anyway. Since his blue generates red (and you'd use it except with Iceman), then you're quite likely to have the AP needed for the 11k nuke, so there's little point in neutering it.
Phaser summed it up well. Yellow is still very good at 3, Red and Blue are not. 5/3/5.
Who said I am not going to use red? I was thinking in a team with iceman/JG on front, left for IMHB and right Cyclops. Cyclops yellow would generate green/purple for iceman/JG and cyclops blue red for IMHB.
But yeah I agree red at 3 is really bad, you would just fire it in an emergency. Yellow is not that bad at 3, it is usable, but it is not specially good either. And yellow is unique, there are other reds that are better... This is why 3/5/5 I think it is a better build. You are not bringing cyclops for his red, you are using him for his yellow and blue. If I want a very good red I would just use IMHB or Captain falcon
But said that, I could settle with any, both 5/3/5 and 3/5/5 are very good.0 -
Polares wrote:Who said I am not going to use red? I was thinking in a team with iceman/JG on front, left for IMHB and right Cyclops. Cyclops yellow would generate green/purple for iceman/JG and cyclops blue red for IMHB.
That's why I said PvP. Only have two characters.
For PvE/Sim, yeah you can bring a red but Cyc's is as good as most of them, especially so if you're focused on matching TU. 5/3/5 allows you to bring a KP (to generate yellow when not spamming JG, or poke Cyc's tile for cheap damge), or XForce to nuke a color and cascade more AP.
And if we're addressing defense at all, aside from XDP and FailCap, Cyc's red is the most expensive in 4* land, so there's an increased chance it will fire instead of Carnage/HB (it's same cost as Thing/Thor, but also stronger per AP even without the TU condition). You'd like it to hurt when it does. Was nothing better fighting the loaner these last couple days and watching a 15red opponent hit me for 600 damage or whatever it was instead of IMHB.
As usual, sign of a good balanced character when builds are this debatable. I think maximum utility comes from 5/3/5, which includes for those rosters who may get lucky on him but are still mostly 3* level.0 -
Polares wrote:Phaserhawk wrote:
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Cyclops--Speed 3/5/5, Dmg 5/3/5. For me giving up red for the speed is not worth it, all you gain is 1 AP, just 1 from 3-5 the CD staying out longer is worthless, So while 3/5/5 makes him the best red and off red acclerator, giving up on red for such a small gain isn't worth it. I've done the math and 5/5/3 and 5/3/5 gets you to red at the same time in terms of matches, but 5/5/3 would allow you to match for others better but blue is really solid, thus I do think 5/3/5 is the only way, because yellow at 3 is still awesome, but red and blue and 3 suck.
...
So in short for Cyclops I get the reasoning for 3/5/5 but the tradeoff isn't worth it
Agree completely on the other ones, but you missed a little the options yellow gives. You are assuming yellow will generate red, but maybe that is not going to be the case. Yellow can generate any color , so if you leave Cyclops slightly underleveled it can generate green for iceman, (if its a 220 level) purple for GSBW+ProfX, Purple for Jean, etc.
And it gives 4Ap for every 3 so you can fire JG every 3 matches, not 4, iceman can fire green every 3 matches (yeah I guess that doing 3 teamup matches is not easy), etc. And because is so cheap it is going to be on the board almost always.
Blue is a must for me, I wanted a power like this (similar to KP black) since XForce was nerfed. A pitty it is just for red tiles.
The big problem is that I usually dont use teamups, so I would have nothing to spend these AP, so red makes sense for me in that regard... Well mine is right now 1/4/3 so luck seems to be telling me that I need to go 3/5/5
When there are chars like Cyclops, I wish we would be able to respec any char before any match, that would give a new dimension to this game (you have 15 covers but you can use just 13 and you decide which ones before any game)
I did not "So while 3/5/5 makes him the best red and off red acclerator"
I'm with you though Polares I was 1000% going for 3/5/5 then I started doing the math. Assume I always had enough TU out to get the boost for Iceman or Jean on green or purple. It's just one extra turn at worst case and that's assuming no match four's to pick up stray green or purple. It's akin to KP's purple. at level 5 it will get you to yellow much faster, but only if the board is loaded with purple. If you have an average board you will pick up a few yellow here and there and then level 3 is more than enough to get you the yellow. Cyc seems the same way from the loaner node using him. You really only need yellow to get you that one extra match you need to go off. Like when you have exhuasted all those color matches, use yellow, match a TU and get what you need. I totally get 3/5/5 but I think 5/3/5 will kill people faster even if it is less efficent boosting another color0 -
Well maybe you both are right, maybe 5/3/5 is the way to go, and the difference in yellow doesnt justify losing red... It is true that a 12k damage ability is hard to miss (specially if you already have yellow out and you just match team-ups).
Which is your config Colog, which Cyclops did you test?0 -
I just noticed Colognoisseur changed his HB build from 5/3/5 to 5/5/3. All is right with the world once again. Now if we could just do something about that Fury build ....Colognoisseur wrote:@vudu I agree my builds are different than others but they suit what I need to do to allow my style of play to succeed. It is clear you have a different style of play and as such you are right my rankings are meaningless to you because of that. If you read the first paragraph after the rankings I clearly state this is just my opinion. It is not meant to be definitive it is just my view. Your differences are valid and as Buret0 did earlier you can post your ranking and allow for further discussion. The only reason I do this is so I don't have to answer the question via pm multiple times.0 -
I went 5/3/5 with Cyke for the reasons Phaserhawk laid out the improvement from 3 to five yellow is really only one AP. The cd is plenty long enough at 5 to take advantage of at 3 yellow. I also think people are not valuing cyke blue it is fast board shaking damage. Even with the hot fix yesterday it is still really good.
My change of Hulkbuster was all Galactus inspired. I needed the extra damage of the extra two covers in black to take him down reliably when I only had three turns. It was easy as Simonsez has surmised correctly since I now use KP with XFDP and I have been running HB with Iceman and was realizing that Hulk-Proof was never going to be used over Build/Punch A Snowman. So my changing personal priorities made it a good time to make the change.
I also want to comment on the idea of whether the ai plays the character right. From my perspective I don't care. The ai didn't play Sentry/Hood correctly. Who cared then? My philosophy is how can I do the most damage without taking a lot in return. Trying to play every event at a high level requires me to maximize that equation. My particular advantage with an all maxed roster is even if the ai misfires Cyke blue you are still taking 3100; even if it used Rulk's green poorly your team still takes 2800. With my high overall team health it is likely you eat both of those before you kill me. Considering Hulkbuster has been the third for all of this you probably take another 5400 from that red too. If I'm worth enough points on a hop you'll take me on but it won't be quick and most of the time it will cost you healthpacks. That's all the "defense" I need.0 -
I feel like this is the best place to ask this question:
I am looking at jump starting my 4* roster via HP. Given this roster: http://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/Danismyhero/, what should I do? Consensuses so far is to max out Cyclops or Red Hulk, I'm looking at roughly 20-30k HP available. I will have an additional Cyclops cover from Sim within a day or two.
Any ideas?0 -
Wait until you get an HB red, and do him.Dimh wrote:I feel like this is the best place to ask this question:
I am looking at jump starting my 4* roster via HP. Given this roster: http://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/Danismyhero/, what should I do? Consensuses so far is to max out Cyclops or Red Hulk, I'm looking at roughly 20-30k HP available. I will have an additional Cyclops cover from Sim within a day or two.
Any ideas?0 -
simonsez wrote:
Wait until you get an HB red, and do him.Dimh wrote:I feel like this is the best place to ask this question:
I am looking at jump starting my 4* roster via HP. Given this roster: http://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/Danismyhero/, what should I do? Consensuses so far is to max out Cyclops or Red Hulk, I'm looking at roughly 20-30k HP available. I will have an additional Cyclops cover from Sim within a day or two.
Any ideas?
I had a feeling this was going to be the response. Cyclops / Red Hulk just not on the same level?0 -
neither have a ready-made accelerator who is already on most every roster at this level. they are both good, but the cost of a fist/hb pair is a fraction of the cost of a rulk/Cyclops or rulk/hb pair and can do nearly as much. only thing it can't do is hover at equilibrium quite as high. and there is an inherent risk taking on jean with fist. but the cost of a 4* is so high, might as well start with hb that gets you a fast, ready-made team right off the bat. can always add jean or rulk or ice to hb later as a pairing. this is why I pushed a while back to get a hb red at 1300 (last set cover at 1300 before LTs) when I did not have the roster for it (did it with 166s - boosteds were **** that week) and added his 5th red via hp - so total investment of about 4K hp on 2 reds for him and I don't regret it. he has served me well (and luckily I haven't pulled red again, so it added a month+ of usability for me at least)Dimh wrote:I had a feeling this was going to be the response. Cyclops / Red Hulk just not on the same level?
edit: there is additional synergy between hb and fist that is not mentioned many places. fist's automatic attack tile means double dipping on the beefy strikes that overdrive creates. additionally any cascades that fist creates take full advantage of the strikes as well. only missing one color and can be played with any other character in the game, although you prefer a featured not have red/black/purple actives as the AI will mess it up on defense.0 -
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