Oscorp Heroic Mode

Unknown

All you need to do with Spider-Man's blue is increase the AP cost by 1 per web tile on the board.

As it is, 2 AP for a single target, 1 round stun is pretty fair, really. Increasing the base cost too much would just **** him, increasing it by too little wouldn't change much. Tying the cost to the effectiveness would make the timing of it's use more interesting while balancing out it's effectiveness.

bahamut685

RockMonster wrote:

All you need to do with Spider-Man's blue is increase the AP cost by 1 per web tile on the board.

As it is, 2 AP for a single target, 1 round stun is pretty fair, really. Increasing the base cost too much would just **** him, increasing it by too little wouldn't change much. Tying the cost to the effectiveness would make the timing of it's use more interesting while balancing out it's effectiveness.

Pretty sure it's getting changed much more than that, since DareDevil (the shiny new thing) caps at a 6 round, single target stun, for 7 AP, and DOESN'T stun the target directly. So it almost certainly won't stay infinitely better than that.

Unknown

Veracity wrote:

Nemek wrote:

Lyrian wrote:

the game is going to be continued to be balanced around people with 5-Blue Spideys, except for the new accounts where the devs feel safe in generating easier content because they know there is no real chance of any of these accounts legitimately owning a 3* Spiderman.

This is basically what I've been thinking for a little while. So much of the PvE content has to be balanced around Spidey right now and that shifts so many things in the wrong direction. He's slightly more balanced in PvP because he's only average on defense and slows down offenses. But, once he can no longer completely dominate PvE, we'll probably start seeing these opponent levels come down and the lvl230 (or more!) missions start to become an actual challenge to the high-level players.

I cleared everything in TaT with no Spider-Man. Several times, because I get pretty stupid when someone shows me shiny stuff I can get for turning a game into work . Mostly Patch'n'Loki, which is obvious yet sickeningly effective, but appropriately difficult to set going for something so "I win", unlike, say, "get 6 blue AP". Patch'n'prayer, more or less, when required characters made Loki less practical.

Not suggesting that challenge level is necessarily appropriate or what anyone really wants to see, but it can sometimes be managed without the ATU crutch, depending who's available and buffed. This time round is a complete fuggedaboudit, because the levels are much the same and I have no cover-complete or leveled characters to use for it. It'd probably be alright without the scaling issues, though - we'll have to await Word of God, or Demiurge_Will if God's not available, on how in line current behavior is with their intentions.

I strongly suspect they will need to review baseline difficulty once Spidey can't shut everything down for entire matches. I wonder if his funbalancing is taking longer because they're not so sure what to do with him? No one wants to use his blue as-is at 5AP, because then he's boring AND a bit rubbish. Doubt they want to change his role fundamentally (though they somewhat did Thor's), but they might be trying to make it work differently so it fits their balance vision without being just meh.

@Lyrian's dissertation: I think I get what you're trying to do with the reward structure and it kind of makes sense. I'm not honestly sure I see what you're getting over a straightforward static difficulty set-up like pre-scaling events is commensurate with the work involved. But I'm not sure why they felt the need to introduce scaling, either, so it'd be no worse than whatever they're actually trying to do.

I cleared all of TaT without Spidey as well... I was even in the springboard lottery for the top prize in my main bracket during the crazy rubberbanding of the last hour of that event. Granted, I had to tank missions like crazy all week to keep the grunts down to a manageable level, but the event was workable. Spidey has to change. As a relatively common (nowadays) 3*, he is a master of crowd control, healing, and defense buffs, all in a single character. That is way too much power for one hero, let alone Peter Parker. How can he handle so much responsibility?

Funny you mention the odd cast for this event. If you think about it, the strange cast of characters seem to have all have a relationship in common...

-- 1* IM35, Widow -> Likely there for the new players to actually be able form a team.
-- 2* Wolv -> Just nerfed
-- 2* Storm -> Had her Yellow nerfed.
-- 2* Hawkeye --> Scheduled to be buffed.
-- 3* Spidey --> Scheduled to be nerfed.
-- 3* Widow --> Was indirectly nerfed through the Rag nerf. Note that no-one in the allowable case is an specific color generator, which is what main powered her abilities.
-- 3* Daredevil --> Featured character, not tested in the wild as of yet.
-- 4* IW --> Recently buffed.

I'd say, that most of these characters are there for some form of data collection in a near-vacuum state, after recent nerfs or to gauge them in preparation for potential buffs.

-- In regard to my dissertation, those were some rough ideas off the top of my head. I think I will clean up the post and add some additional content I thought of and repost it as a new thread tomorrow (ehh... Superbowl) or Monday. At some level, there needs to be some engagement on the devs about these topics.

Unknown

I'm not in favor of changing Classic Spidey until this whole issue with ungodly strong PvE enemies is addressed.

As of right now, he's the only way to deal with ridiculously strong enemies. Remove him, and those matches against LV 170+ foes will be nearly impossible (and totally impractical) and participate in for the vast majority of the population.

Spidey's stun is fine as it is. It's no where near as unfun to fight as Ragnarok was in his hay-day.

Unknown

bahamut685 wrote:

RockMonster wrote:

All you need to do with Spider-Man's blue is increase the AP cost by 1 per web tile on the board.

As it is, 2 AP for a single target, 1 round stun is pretty fair, really. Increasing the base cost too much would just **** him, increasing it by too little wouldn't change much. Tying the cost to the effectiveness would make the timing of it's use more interesting while balancing out it's effectiveness.

Pretty sure it's getting changed much more than that, since DareDevil (the shiny new thing) caps at a 6 round, single target stun, for 7 AP, and DOESN'T stun the target directly. So it almost certainly won't stay infinitely better than that.

Daredevil's stun pretty much puts an upper limit of how good a single target stun can be. He's of the same rarity, and you don't even get to control who or when it works.

Unknown

bahamut685 wrote:

RockMonster wrote:

All you need to do with Spider-Man's blue is increase the AP cost by 1 per web tile on the board.

As it is, 2 AP for a single target, 1 round stun is pretty fair, really. Increasing the base cost too much would just **** him, increasing it by too little wouldn't change much. Tying the cost to the effectiveness would make the timing of it's use more interesting while balancing out it's effectiveness.

Pretty sure it's getting changed much more than that, since DareDevil (the shiny new thing) caps at a 6 round, single target stun, for 7 AP, and DOESN'T stun the target directly. So it almost certainly won't stay infinitely better than that.

Well my suggestion would cap it at a 5 turn stun for 6 AP, which is in the same ballpark. Daredevil has that indirect trap required to land, Spidey's would require 4 previous stuns and some careful board management to reach it's full potential, so both would have their limitations. If anything, Spider-Man's would end up weaker in some cases than DD's, which would be perfect since it would allow each character to more effectively counter different opponents.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

bahamut685 wrote:

RockMonster wrote:

All you need to do with Spider-Man's blue is increase the AP cost by 1 per web tile on the board.

As it is, 2 AP for a single target, 1 round stun is pretty fair, really. Increasing the base cost too much would just **** him, increasing it by too little wouldn't change much. Tying the cost to the effectiveness would make the timing of it's use more interesting while balancing out it's effectiveness.

Pretty sure it's getting changed much more than that, since DareDevil (the shiny new thing) caps at a 6 round, single target stun, for 7 AP, and DOESN'T stun the target directly. So it almost certainly won't stay infinitely better than that.

Daredevil's stun pretty much puts an upper limit of how good a single target stun can be. He's of the same rarity, and you don't even get to control who or when it works.

Apples and oranges guys, Spiderman's kit (current iteration) requires some sort of web tile generation, and he does no damage aside from matches. DD has the highest damage:red AP ratio in the game, with a trap that will instakill anyone who matches it, and the highest theft skill in the game as well (7 AP of each color holy ****).

Unknown

The problem with Spidey is all of his abilities scale REALLY well with web tiles. 2ap for 1 char 1 turn is fine. Is 6 ap for 1 char for 6 turns? Or 8ap for 10 turns? THAT'S the problem. It's not the stun itself, it's how it scales.

The same goes for his healing. With 0-1 webtiles, it's WAY overpriced. With 2-3 web tiles it's cost effective. With 4+ web tiles your whole team is at maxed health. And since to put down web tiles you're stunning your opponent, by the time you get 4+ web tiles on the board, the enemy team is effectively locked down or at least trivialized.

Since Spidey's moves revolve around web tiles, perhaps the best fix would be to cut down their effectiveness. Say blue - stuns for 1 turn + 1 for every 2 web tiles. That would drastically cut back on stunlocking an entire team yet still make him viable for control. Instead of locking down the whole team, he'd effectively only be able to lock down one.

Unknown

If you started 0 web tiles, 3 stuns still gets you a total of 6 turns equilvanet of stun for 6 AP, not to mention this will actually let you stun the whole team for one turn which is usually better than stunning 1 guy for 6 turns. Of course after there are web tiles things get way easier from there, and web tiles usually don't get removed easily because yellow is a weak color. The AI usually don't bother prioritizing on that either, and if they're destroying web tiles they're generally not getting useful AP.

The web tile requirement simply is irrelevent on most boards because yellow is not a contested color. If web tiles are on red tiles, it might be remotely balanced since that's prime estate there, but it's not.

Unknown

Raising the cost of the first stun from 2 to 3 ap would probably do it, since 3-4-5 is much harder than 2-3-4. Most boards probably don't even start with the 4 blue matches required.

eidehua

newdarkcloud wrote:

I'm not in favor of changing Classic Spidey until this whole issue with ungodly strong PvE enemies is addressed.

As of right now, he's the only way to deal with ridiculously strong enemies. Remove him, and those matches against LV 170+ foes will be nearly impossible (and totally impractical) and participate in for the vast majority of the population.

Spidey's stun is fine as it is. It's no where near as unfun to fight as Ragnarok was in his hay-day.

Psst... the idea is PVE is this hard because of spidey, so not changing him means no change to PVE enemies

Unknown

Up until this event the signifciant prizes for PvE is on placment, not grinding.

A Spiderman nerf would affect everyone equally (actually only affect the guys who have him with high blue) and the relative placement would still be unchanged. This is no different how after boost AP+3 all were nerfed, people who typically do well in PvE tournaments are still the ones on the top, because everyone is equally worse after the nerf.

With Spiderman nerfed it will no longer be totally safe but the all minion fights are never going to be very hard as long as Patch is around (Berserker Rage is tailored for these fights). For the villians themselves, that really depends on who is available and who is boosted.

Unknown

Wake up
Check heroic event
Enemies raised in level, even though I couldn't even clear them yesterday
Exit game

Really? It's getting ridiculous....

DD-The-Mighty

Log on to forum
see this comment style
see all the jockeying off it, guess i must join in
see muppets under the impression that all lower lever roster holders are getting a free ride to 50k town
laugh as I and many other lower level roster holders lose to Super Hammer Bros 20 levels out of our reach
hit submit
log off

Am I doin it rite?

Unknown

Oh! And another thing!

On the stage with Yelena and 2 spies, the spies won't drop their tiles unless Yelena is stunned. They just pump up her purple AP until she uses Lethal Recon. That's hitting for 1,000, and in your infinite ****ing wisdom you didn't give us access to a tank for this event. I can't get anything going to get through her mountainous health pool since she steals all my AP, so I'm trying to whittle her away with tile damage before she carves me up.

Who comes up with this ****?

Also, **** chat filters. If I'm swearing is because I'm angry, and changing it to something cutesy is just going to make me angrier. "Tinykitty" isn't funny, it's stupid. You're stupid.

DD-The-Mighty

RockMonster wrote:

Oh! And another thing!

On the stage with Yelena and 2 spies, the spies won't drop their tiles unless Yelena is stunned. They just pump up her purple AP until she uses Lethal Recon. That's hitting for 1,000, and in your infinite ****ing wisdom you didn't give us access to a tank for this event. I can't get anything going to get through her mountainous health pool since she steals all my AP, so I'm trying to whittle her away with tile damage before she carves me up.

Who comes up with this ****?

Also, **** chat filters. If I'm swearing is because I'm angry, and changing it to something cutesy is just going to make me angrier. "Tinykitty" isn't funny, it's stupid. You're stupid.

you're supposed to tinykitty those swears or Lord IceIX and faithful WhiteKnights will get you.

Unknown

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

RockMonster wrote:

Oh! And another thing!

On the stage with Yelena and 2 spies, the spies won't drop their tiles unless Yelena is stunned. They just pump up her purple AP until she uses Lethal Recon. That's hitting for 1,000, and in your infinite ****ing wisdom you didn't give us access to a tank for this event. I can't get anything going to get through her mountainous health pool since she steals all my AP, so I'm trying to whittle her away with tile damage before she carves me up.

Who comes up with this ****?

Also, **** chat filters. If I'm swearing is because I'm angry, and changing it to something cutesy is just going to make me angrier. "Tinykitty" isn't funny, it's stupid. You're stupid.

you're supposed to tinykitty those swears or Lord IceIX and faithful WhiteKnights will get you.

FEEL MY BRANDY-FUELED WRATH MOTHER****ers!!!

Unknown

RockMonster wrote:

Oh! And another thing!

On the stage with Yelena and 2 spies, the spies won't drop their tiles unless Yelena is stunned. They just pump up her purple AP until she uses Lethal Recon. That's hitting for 1,000, and in your infinite ****ing wisdom you didn't give us access to a tank for this event. I can't get anything going to get through her mountainous health pool since she steals all my AP, so I'm trying to whittle her away with tile damage before she carves me up.

Who comes up with this ****?

Also, **** chat filters. If I'm swearing is because I'm angry, and changing it to something cutesy is just going to make me angrier. "Tinykitty" isn't funny, it's stupid. You're stupid.

I don't imagine that fight doable without Spiderman, but it's actually quite trivial with him. Match blue, stun Yelena. The end.

In terms of balance that should be turned to Yelena with 2 Pyros/Snipers/Grenadiers. In general, the villian + minion fights need to be changed so that the minions do not share color with the villians because it leads to some rather ridiculous results.

Unknown

I am telling you right now..spidey's blue will cost 6 ap after the nerf...simple as that. That would make him way underpowered though so they have to do something else as well. My guess is that he will stun the while team now with his web tiles, they will cost 6 hp, but function the Sam eotherwise doing +1 to the stun for each tile you get down. This effectively nerfs all 3 of his moves with one change. Blue takes longer to rev up, costs more than 2 ap (insane once you get thr enemy to only 1-2 enemies left), and puts fewer tiles down. In turn the yellow and the purple won't Need tweaking ad thebvery much nerfed blue now means lower healing and weaker protect tiles. They might even make it @6 ap blue he stuns +2 to all and +1 (up to let's say 5-6) to only the targeted enemy for each protect tiles. That would make it more viable for the first tile placed and lower the rev time but also not make it op in a new diff way. So 0 tiles make +6 stun. 1 tile makes +7 stun. 2 tiles make +8 stun etc etc etc.

That is about the most fair way to change him ibcan think of without butchering or totally changing how he functions. If they are feeling generous they could increase the base heal and protect tile to compensate a little for the way fewer tiles being able to be placed even. The progression of the blue would be something like...

1. +1 stun to all. +1 stun for every tile down. Creates 1 tile. Max stun at 3.
2. Max stun @4.
3. Max stun @5.
4. +2 stun to all.initially.
5. Max stun @6.

Though another possibility io change spidey's blue, if they don't care to keep the increase stun per tile mechanic totally the same, would be to make it a +2 to all and work mire like this:

1. +1 stun to all. Creates 1 tile randomly on basic yellow.
2. +2 stun to all. Creates 1 tile randomly.on basic yellow.
3. +2 stun to all. Creates 1 tile randomly on yellow including strike tiles.
4. +2 stun to all. Creates 1 tile randomly on any yellow tile.
5. +2 stun to all. Creates 2 tiles randomly on any yellow tile.

This makes it nerfed but the effect on purple and yellow is less (still nerfed).

Another option is changing the blue completely so that it functions more like caps shield in that you can aim the web tile's placement. Same as the last one but maybe an increased ap to 7 and allow chosen web tile placement. Makes it a stunning anti-ares and anyone else using yellow countdown (I'm40 or wolverine) or strike files Like punisher. I like this idea as well.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

RockMonster wrote:

Oh! And another thing!

On the stage with Yelena and 2 spies, the spies won't drop their tiles unless Yelena is stunned. They just pump up her purple AP until she uses Lethal Recon. That's hitting for 1,000, and in your infinite ****ing wisdom you didn't give us access to a tank for this event. I can't get anything going to get through her mountainous health pool since she steals all my AP, so I'm trying to whittle her away with tile damage before she carves me up.

Who comes up with this ****?

Also, **** chat filters. If I'm swearing is because I'm angry, and changing it to something cutesy is just going to make me angrier. "Tinykitty" isn't funny, it's stupid. You're stupid.

I don't imagine that fight doable without Spiderman, but it's actually quite trivial with him. Match blue, stun Yelena. The end.

In terms of balance that should be turned to Yelena with 2 Pyros/Snipers/Grenadiers. In general, the villian + minion fights need to be changed so that the minions do not share color with the villians because it leads to some rather ridiculous results.

Yeah, my Spidey is 1/2/1, so I'm not allowed to play in this event.

Goons as AP generators for villains is 100% working as intended though. In TaT the brand new goon types were paired exclusively with villains that used their colours. Red and Black goons meant you were fighting Bullseye, Ares and/or Moonstone, without exception. I don't know why. But isn't a coincidence.