*** Quicksilver (Pietro Maximoff) ***

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Comments

  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    Arguments for build.
    Well they nerfed Bagsilver before release so there is only one swap. This means his black is rather expensive to do such little damage even at 5 black in the grand scheme of things. So might as well go 3 black here.
    The Blue does damage to the whole opposing team, but it is a total damage, and not for each tile destroyed. The locked tiles will annoy some people, but in theory it annoys people on defense as well. Also at 5 blue it can do over 2000 damage to the whole team.
    The Green was supposed to produce two critical tiles at 5 green, but instead they upped the damage, because we can't have fun cascades. Still, if all things are going correctly, the 6 to 8 green cost for a critical tile and damage around 1800 is rather nice.
    So I am thinking Bagsilver is best built at 3/5/5
  • Highdark
    Highdark Posts: 75 Match Maker
    I think 5/3/5 is the way to go. The damage on his blackflag.png and greenflag.png double with their last cover while blueflag.png is only halfed at 3. Plus if you intend to use blackflag.png and greenflag.png . You really dont want to proc your blueflag.png . I think he could be nifty with some starlord. I don't think he is a must have, but he could be a fun utility. With the XF nerf there is an influx for greenflag.png spenders
  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    Highdark wrote:
    I think 5/3/5 is the way to go. The damage on his blackflag.png and greenflag.png double with their last cover while blueflag.png is only halfed at 3. Plus if you intend to use blackflag.png and greenflag.png . You really dont want to proc your blueflag.png . I think he could be nifty with some starlord. I don't think he is a must have, but he could be a fun utility. With the XF nerf there is an influx for greenflag.png spenders

    I see your point, but the only time people are going to be using this quickbag, is when facing another in the specific PVP for his use. So two team up tiles are going to occur each time a blue match happens and not one. You might as well be the hammer and not the nail and do more damage on the blue match that will happen.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    So I noticed during this tournament, the blue passive seems to be set so that if two QS are present, the player ability always triggers first. When 3 locked tiles are on the board, if either the player or the ai makes a blue match, the player blue triggers the 4th locked tile and the enemy then detonates them. The player always takes the hit, at least on IOS.
  • Mawtful
    Mawtful Posts: 1,646 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tiles locked or cap before locked tiles explode doesn't change with rank for blue, just damage dealt. At Rank 5, it's got an ap:damage ratio of about 431. Since it requires 5 blue matches to fire, the "cheapest" cost is 15 AP for 3*2156 damage. Call the Storm clocks in at a respectable 645 ap ratio, although if we're assuming match-3's only to generate the required AP, CtS will fire a turn slower than Supersonic. Embiggened Bash is a better comparison, since it has a cost of 12. It can be fired on the 5th turn, same as Supersonic. Bash has a hefty 847 ap ratio.
    I also compared it against cheap AoE. Punisher can throw a Molotov for only 7 AP. Once again assuming only match-3's, he'll have 15 AP by turn 5 and can throw 2 on the 6th turn (or one each on 4th and 6th). Each Molotov has an AP ratio of 335 for the AoE damage alone.

    Now no power lives in a vacuum, and neither do the characters. Naturally, you'll be pairing QS with someone to spend all that blue, so Supersonic can be viewed as additional damage on the way to firing whatever other power. In terms of the synergy between blue and his other powers though, we're looking at a cost reduction based on number of locked tiles, but since you get 1 locked tile per blue match there's no way to really leverage that synergy. While there are less than 4 locked tiles on the board, matching blue is equal to gaining 1 black and 1 green ap for QS. However matching black or green gives you the equivalent ap for anyone on your team to use - and the amount you earn isn't modified by the number of locked tiles. Essentially, it's not really worth matching blue if the only reason is lower the cost of his other powers, however I feel that the best benefit of blue is thinking of it as "additional damage" while you're gathering for an ally's power.

    Ultimately, that's what Quicksilver seems to offer - nice additional damage that happens along the way to you actually doing what you want to do. Unfortunately, given the structure of most events, it's just not viable to bring him along.

    I would probably think that 5/5/3 is the best support build if you're going to be prioritising blue (Imagine if Thor4's power surge also dealt team damage). Otherwise, I'd probably spec him 5/3/5.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I'm going to offer a very lazy solution to fix Quicksilver (no ability completely redesigned because I don't get paid for doing that).

    Black - Cost 1 less AP, maximum number of locked bubble benefit decreased by 1
    Green - Same as black
    Blue - Bubbles explode when 3 tiles are already locked instead of 4 for 33% less damage

    Note that this should be a big buff to blue's damage simply because currently it's once in a blue moon you'd get the bubbles to explode without having 2 Quicksilvers.
  • Azoic
    Azoic Posts: 269 Mover and Shaker
    Yah, they need to remove the number of locked tiles required. You essentially need 5 blue matches without a match4 or 5, or the AI going for TU tiles...I generally have only had it proc during a lucky cascade throughout the last pve. I really thought it was supposed to proc upon getting 4 locked TUs, not on the subsequent blue match.

    His green needs buffed, too.

    In pve, I plan to have fun with him matched with profx (black will make for easy match-5s, and even the green giving a wildcard might lead into one), and maybe cmags, whose red often leads into cascades, too. Rainbow coverage and shields for profx to buff
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    never a fan of lock tiles.. u know, ppl pay to get rid of those in candy crush
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards
    In the damage to AP ratios, you forget to include that the ai can make blue matches too. He's actually a strong blue counter pick.

    Rags does help a lot, but then he's rags.

    In mirror matches, blue is going to process a lot, so I want 5 there. Just gotta make sure there's 4 locked types instead of 5.

    Interesting that in order to get the right amount of locked tiles, bagman becomes strong? Plus double swap. Oh the humanity.
  • Pwuz_
    Pwuz_ Posts: 1,214 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'd be interested to see how a max level Quicksilver would handle a fight against Invisible Woman.

    Being able to blow up those locked tiles of her's would be valuable, though there is the risk of her blowing up yours as well.

    I know a very limited counter, but something interesting to contemplate.
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    noisnam wrote:
    never a fan of lock tiles.. u know, ppl pay to get rid of those in candy crush
    I think of them like Trap tiles, which were really disliked initially. However, at some point, the Devs realized that simply having a hidden tile wasn't actually that interesting, so they came up more interesting abilities that fit the "hidden tile" theme well. The new Ambush, Diabolical Plot, Demolition, and Shadow Step powers have really made Traps actually fun to play.

    Sadly, Quicksilver and the IW buff did very little to make locked tiles interesting. It's so sad that the new IW still uses her greenflag.png to randomly throw down Force Bubbles if none are on the board. I'd rather her not use her power in that situation. Randomly placed locks only hurt the player, since the AI doesn't care what it matches.

    Also, I would have had Quicksilver zip over and automatically lock down enemy special tiles, if available, every blue match. I think it would make a lot of sense if Quicksilver ran around locking enemy CD tiles. That would at least be thematic. If no special tiles were available, he would lock down a team-up tile, I guess (it still seems like an odd thing to do). I'm just not crazy about a version of Diabolical Plot that uses locked tiles. Locked tiles are so disruptive, that It feels like you are fighting your own Quicksilver while he slowly builds his Supersonic bomb.

    The point is, you have to make the lock downs very useful, otherwise, they are more annoying than anything else. I do think there is potential there, but so far, it's been completely wasted.
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    He needs the full-on Daredevil treatment. Trap tiles defined MPQ's Daredevil, but as originally implemented, it actually made him feel nothing like Marvel's Daredevil.

    Almost anything mentioned in this thread would technically improve QS. But I'm convinced that working within the confines of these powers won't help make him feel like QS.

    I won't play him until he feels like a speedster. Go back to the drawing board, take a look at the fan pages and steal some good ideas. Get rid of the locked tiles, because I will never be convinced that this represents speed. (Maybe if QS locks down enemy CD tiles, but that's stretching it). Locked tiles == Force bubbles: makes sense. Webbing? I can see that. Speed, Uhh... why was this even a thought after the other two?

    Even if QS is made useful, there will be endless threads about how badly the powerset represents this classic Marvel character. Devs, please start over.

    EDIT: On the brightside, the QS blueflag.png mechanic could be saved for Boom-Boom. So there's that.
  • DFiPL
    DFiPL Posts: 2,405 Chairperson of the Boards
    The Quicksilver in the Normal Simulator essential fight has much lower ability costs than what my Quicksilver has. Is that an artifact from what his power costs originally looked like? They changed it for end users, but not for the AI?
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    How many tiles does he swap?
  • DFiPL
    DFiPL Posts: 2,405 Chairperson of the Boards
    Two. I know there's an AP cost reduction for locked tiles on the board, but I'm reasonably sure there weren't four locked tiles on the board when I noticed the AP cost difference.
  • FaustianDeal
    FaustianDeal Posts: 760 Critical Contributor
    After playing a few matches I am left, grudgingly, wondering if Quicksilver was a factor in why Marvel Now Magneto was tweaked when Mystique was adjusted. Sure he was half of a pretty awesome infinite turn combo, and that needed to be addressed... but changing Mystique alone could have done that.

    Old MNMags could probably have been easily abused when you paired it with Quicksilver's passive. I could often create 2 critical matches before he was changed, or 3 (or more) match-3s off purple. Being able to easily link that up to a couple thousand points of AOE damage running Quicksilver with dear old dad was probably viewed as 'too good'. (Or pre-nerf classic mags paired with Quicksilver... I would love the chance to run that duo for just one event... but anyway.)

    No statement was made to this effect when Mags was changed. This could either be because no forward-looking statements about upcoming characters could be made, or because random luck. I'll give benefit of the doubt and assume the former.
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    The original version swapped 4, so that's inconsistent. I don't know.

    If the simulator is based on the original costs, then maybe they should keep it that way. There's just no way that QS is ever going to be a threat in the hands of the AI, even as originally designed.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    FaustianDeal wrote:
    After playing a few matches I am left, grudgingly, wondering if Quicksilver was a factor in why Marvel Now Magneto was tweaked when Mystique was adjusted. Sure he was half of a pretty awesome infinite turn combo, and that needed to be addressed... but changing Mystique alone could have done that.

    Old MNMags could probably have been easily abused when you paired it with Quicksilver's passive. I could often create 2 critical matches before he was changed, or 3 (or more) match-3s off purple. Being able to easily link that up to a couple thousand points of AOE damage running Quicksilver with dear old dad was probably viewed as 'too good'. (Or pre-nerf classic mags paired with Quicksilver... I would love the chance to run that duo for just one event... but anyway.)

    No statement was made to this effect when Mags was changed. This could either be because no forward-looking statements about upcoming characters could be made, or because random luck. I'll give benefit of the doubt and assume the former.
    Nah, that'd require D3 to think ahead.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I am convinced they were in the process of designing Mr Fantastic (all his powers are shared by other fantastic four teammates Invisible Woman and Bagman) when Marvel called and said "you need to release Quicksilver right now!" So they swapped in Quicksilvers name, renamed the existing powers and released the result. Now we are left with a rushed character that plays totally unlike a speedster.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    GuntherBlobel wrote:
    Get rid of the locked tiles, because I will never be convinced that this represents speed.

    I'll slightly disagree with you there. The locked tiles aren't to represent speed, they are to increase the speed of his skills and unlike Psylocke where you have to pay to speed up, this requires only matches and the enemy can help you. Problem, they made AP costs too much and locked tiles hard to stay out, great concept poorly implemented, much like Beast.

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