Changes Coming In Season XIII

Unknown

daveomite wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

whitecat31 wrote:

In the past when you have made a character too powerful in the boost environment that character was nerfed.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, whitecat.

I think the characters that you mention were overpowered in a boost-free environment as well.

Will - did you ever actually play with Sentry - even maxed Sentry/Hood combo - at high levels? I mean, when you absolutely had to get into and out of a match in 2 minutes or less? If so, was that really possible for you unboosted as you suggest it would be?

Same goes for any team out there presently. Can you go into a match verses a 3x maxed team (and to make it easier for you, only the featured would be boosted for you) - so let's say it's a Daken PvP, and the opponent/AI has maxed Daken/XF/Fist plus a cMag TU. Are you honestly saying that you can break shield, go into that match with NO boosts - with ANY 3 characters, win said match, be out, and be re-shielded in under 3 minutes? OR, if it makes it even easier, let's say the featured is a maxed Hood paired with a maxed XF and ProfX. Still can knock out all three in under 3 minutes and re-shield before getting drilled by snipers?

You know everything's not based on PvP right? A non boost aided Sentry was still pretty viable in PvE before the change. Now he's a ****, of course, but match length matters way less in PvE.

Shield hopping timeframes are relative. It takes you X minutes to reenter the system, a fixed number that's somewhere around 5-10 minutes right? If a fight takes you "average" length then yo should be able to get out and reshield in time, because you have a 5-10 minute head start on anyone trying to hit you. If it was "fast" legnth, you might even go for 2 fights. "average" and "fast" are not fixed numbers, they are flexible based on team composition, and featured character. Even if you were found, and even if you were attacked, as long as that shield is up before the match ends you are safe. Hulk and Captain America PvPs in the past should have shown you this phenomena. It's not necessarily about not being hit, it's about not being hit for points. Heck, the whole high end meta is about searching you while you are shield broken and then hitting people for big points after the shields are up.

Game lengths are increasing for everyone. Or, more specifically, those who boost now have less advantage over those who choose not to boost. At least try it before you complain about it. My suspicion is that nothing really will have changed at the high end. Well, Hood might be about more, but that's hardly unexpected. Long term, this will be good for the game because characters like pre-nerf sentry that rely on two relatively low cost combo abilities (8 and 9 lets say) can exist without breaking everything in PvP.

Unknown

Azoic wrote:

I thought there used to be an event token at 300 pts, too. So did you take that away?? Honestly, the 500 point progression error you had with HT green awhile back is where the 3* should be. A dveloped 2* team can reach 500. I have only gotten over 600 in special events and an event that surprisingly kept matching me against lvl60s. So unless he matchmaking seriously stops matching the 2* teams against 3*, then a 2* will still be unable to hit that progression. Hard to transition when all you are given is another 2*.


Otherwise, glad to see the other changes. I agree 4* will need a bump, too, esp since not part of a monthly DDQ or something, and we're gettng more 4s. Would still like roster slots addressed, since 1600 hp/month at your release rate is silly...and only gets worse

They didn't take it away, it's still at 300. They only mentioned changes, not a complete list of rewards. There were 2 tokens before at 300 and 800, now there are 3 tokens at 300, 650, and 900.

mohio

Lerysh wrote:

daveomite wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

whitecat31 wrote:

In the past when you have made a character too powerful in the boost environment that character was nerfed.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, whitecat.

I think the characters that you mention were overpowered in a boost-free environment as well.

Will - did you ever actually play with Sentry - even maxed Sentry/Hood combo - at high levels? I mean, when you absolutely had to get into and out of a match in 2 minutes or less? If so, was that really possible for you unboosted as you suggest it would be?

Same goes for any team out there presently. Can you go into a match verses a 3x maxed team (and to make it easier for you, only the featured would be boosted for you) - so let's say it's a Daken PvP, and the opponent/AI has maxed Daken/XF/Fist plus a cMag TU. Are you honestly saying that you can break shield, go into that match with NO boosts - with ANY 3 characters, win said match, be out, and be re-shielded in under 3 minutes? OR, if it makes it even easier, let's say the featured is a maxed Hood paired with a maxed XF and ProfX. Still can knock out all three in under 3 minutes and re-shield before getting drilled by snipers?

You know everything's not based on PvP right? A non boost aided Sentry was still pretty viable in PvE before the change. Now he's a ****, of course, but match length matters way less in PvE.

Shield hopping timeframes are relative. It takes you X minutes to reenter the system, a fixed number that's somewhere around 5-10 minutes right? If a fight takes you "average" length then yo should be able to get out and reshield in time, because you have a 5-10 minute head start on anyone trying to hit you. If it was "fast" legnth, you might even go for 2 fights. "average" and "fast" are not fixed numbers, they are flexible based on team composition, and featured character. Even if you were found, and even if you were attacked, as long as that shield is up before the match ends you are safe. Hulk and Captain America PvPs in the past should have shown you this phenomena. It's not necessarily about not being hit, it's about not being hit for points. Heck, the whole high end meta is about searching you while you are shield broken and then hitting people for big points after the shields are up.

Game lengths are increasing for everyone. Or, more specifically, those who boost now have less advantage over those who choose not to boost. At least try it before you complain about it. My suspicion is that nothing really will have changed at the high end. Well, Hood might be about more, but that's hardly unexpected. Long term, this will be good for the game because characters like pre-nerf sentry that rely on two relatively low cost combo abilities (8 and 9 lets say) can exist without breaking everything in PvP.

What you're saying is frankly just false. It takes maybe 5-10 seconds of server lag time + skips to clear your cache to find someone immediately after they unshield. Now MOST MPQ players aren't going to burn through a bunch of skips and just hit that next guy for 22 or whatever, but a lot of guys trying to climb fast will hit that skip button a good 5-10 times looking for a juicy target. They will find you immediately after unshielding, and maybe they'll wait 5 minutes, or maybe they won't, but you'd rather not have to trust a bunch of strangers not to hit you for 5 minutes.

And that's not even getting into snipers. Not gonna judge good or bad, but it's a way to play the game and they surely are out there. They or their friend see someone with high points unshield, call them out in battle chat or whatever and voila, a few skips later they're found and hit for a hefty sum of points.

Your point about Sentry in PvE is truly valid, although I would counter that it wasn't a very good strategy since you'd churn through health packs very quickly.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Shield hopping timeframes are relative. It takes you X minutes to reenter the system, a fixed number that's somewhere around 5-10 minutes right? If a fight takes you "average" length then yo should be able to get out and reshield in time, because you have a 5-10 minute head start on anyone trying to hit you. If it was "fast" legnth, you might even go for 2 fights. "average" and "fast" are not fixed numbers, they are flexible based on team composition, and featured character. Even if you were found, and even if you were attacked, as long as that shield is up before the match ends you are safe. Hulk and Captain America PvPs in the past should have shown you this phenomena. It's not necessarily about not being hit, it's about not being hit for points. Heck, the whole high end meta is about searching you while you are shield broken and then hitting people for big points after the shields are up.

Game lengths are increasing for everyone. Or, more specifically, those who boost now have less advantage over those who choose not to boost. At least try it before you complain about it. My suspicion is that nothing really will have changed at the high end. Well, Hood might be about more, but that's hardly unexpected. Long term, this will be good for the game because characters like pre-nerf sentry that rely on two relatively low cost combo abilities (8 and 9 lets say) can exist without breaking everything in PvP.

There's a flaw in that line of thought.
Yes, if the general average time for a match is longer for everyone then theoretically everything should be fair and square.
Practically however, it doesn't work like that at all. The game very heavily relies on the initial board and all the tiles "dropping" during the match. In other terms you have a certain chance factor. Which means that the longer you drag average length of the match, the more you're increasing the odds of people being able to go faster (and slower). Consider the average time for a match as being a bell curve that you compress and decompress among the x-axis. The larger the curve, the more it is possible to observe huge variation in time between two matches.
Besides, some things (being targeted as an opponent, going through all the motions to start a match) take a fixed amount of time, and the more you stretch the length of the match, the less they matter overall.

Let's imagine we have an average match lasting 40s. This means it would be pretty safe for me to fight for 2-3 match when shield hopping. The time people find me, the time they start their game, they finish it, it's all quite substantial compared to a length of a match. Heck, I would even avoid characters like Cage and IF because their animation takes too much time. And if a lucky opponent finishes his match against me quick, what does that mean, that he gained 5-10 seconds tops. The faster the match, the smaller the possible variation in time.
Now let's imagine an average match lasts 3 minutes at least. Although the amount of time to find me and start the match has not moved one inch they have become of a much smaller importance now, and if I play two matches I end up being very very exposed to being sniped during my second one by someone.


What I read from these changes translates into a race for the bottom in PvP.

reckless442

Lerysh wrote:

daveomite wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

whitecat31 wrote:

In the past when you have made a character too powerful in the boost environment that character was nerfed.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, whitecat.

I think the characters that you mention were overpowered in a boost-free environment as well.

Will - did you ever actually play with Sentry - even maxed Sentry/Hood combo - at high levels? I mean, when you absolutely had to get into and out of a match in 2 minutes or less? If so, was that really possible for you unboosted as you suggest it would be?

Same goes for any team out there presently. Can you go into a match verses a 3x maxed team (and to make it easier for you, only the featured would be boosted for you) - so let's say it's a Daken PvP, and the opponent/AI has maxed Daken/XF/Fist plus a cMag TU. Are you honestly saying that you can break shield, go into that match with NO boosts - with ANY 3 characters, win said match, be out, and be re-shielded in under 3 minutes? OR, if it makes it even easier, let's say the featured is a maxed Hood paired with a maxed XF and ProfX. Still can knock out all three in under 3 minutes and re-shield before getting drilled by snipers?

You know everything's not based on PvP right? A non boost aided Sentry was still pretty viable in PvE before the change. Now he's a ****, of course, but match length matters way less in PvE.

Shield hopping timeframes are relative. It takes you X minutes to reenter the system, a fixed number that's somewhere around 5-10 minutes right? If a fight takes you "average" length then yo should be able to get out and reshield in time, because you have a 5-10 minute head start on anyone trying to hit you. If it was "fast" legnth, you might even go for 2 fights. "average" and "fast" are not fixed numbers, they are flexible based on team composition, and featured character. Even if you were found, and even if you were attacked, as long as that shield is up before the match ends you are safe. Hulk and Captain America PvPs in the past should have shown you this phenomena. It's not necessarily about not being hit, it's about not being hit for points. Heck, the whole high end meta is about searching you while you are shield broken and then hitting people for big points after the shields are up.

Game lengths are increasing for everyone. Or, more specifically, those who boost now have less advantage over those who choose not to boost. At least try it before you complain about it. My suspicion is that nothing really will have changed at the high end. Well, Hood might be about more, but that's hardly unexpected. Long term, this will be good for the game because characters like pre-nerf sentry that rely on two relatively low cost combo abilities (8 and 9 lets say) can exist without breaking everything in PvP.

Your missing a critical aspect of the speed of shield hopping -- the time it takes to queue someone has not changed. And you don't have 5 to 10 minutes to reenter the system. As soon as you unshield and start your match, you become visible in nodes. So let's say it typically takes 3 minutes to queue someone and start a match. That amount of time has not changed due to the nerfs.

Under the old system, let's say you averaged 3 minutes a match. In a two-match hop, you would be relatively secure. Six minutes between shields. Other plays would take 3 minutes to find you, get their team ready, get boosts ready and attack. Then they would have 3 minutes before you could reshield. That gives them a very small window to complete their attack.

But now look at if the average time goes to 5 minutes. It still takes an average of 3 minutes to find and start a match. But now it is 7 minutes before you reshield. Even if the attacker's match also lasts 5 minutes, there is more of a time margin (2 minutes) before you reshield.

Now also bear in mind that, with fewer high-point targets out there due to sharding and cool-downs, it isn't as if only one person is jumping on you when you unshield. It's multiple people who are desperate for that 35+ target. And one of them is bound to get the occasional cascade that speeds up their match.

In the pre-nerf system, I rarely took multiple hits on a two-match hop. In the last PVP, it happened more than once. I expect it to get even worse now that high scorers will be seen by everyone. While they are hitting one of the few 25-pt targets out there, multiple people will be lining to hit them for -50.

Fun times.

Unknown

The changes absolutely makes it harder to shield hop but since shield hop is the primary method of both building a lead and closing the gap it should impact both end equally. While it'd be much harder for you to build a lead of 100 points compared to before, it is also much harder for someone to make up 100 points for the same reason that prevented you from building such a lead easily. If things get so bad that you can only win one match per hop before getting hit, then a lead of 50 points is suddenly requires at least 2 shield hops to overcome. I suppose this will mean 'purposely lose to someone' will now be overwhelmingly the best strategy to build a lead since that still takes no time at all to pull off, though it's hard for me to see any shield hopping strategy that can possibly beat someone who has guys purposely losing to him under any circumstance.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Matchmaking Changes
We’re shifting matchmaking calculations to achieve the following aims:

• We used to use a persistent, hidden Versus rating to help with matchmaking. There were a number of ways where that could cause some quirkiness where people’s hidden rating gets far off from what we expect, and their matches are much harder or easier than they should be. That hidden rating no longer figures into matchmaking, fixing these issues.
• The removal of hidden rating makes it so that purposely losing to get easier fights stops being effective.
• Newcomers to PvP stop getting pounded on quite so badly, and retaliation fights are more likely to be within reach.
• The flipside to that is that higher-level players see less super-easy targets. You’ll generally see opponents with a minimum difficulty of roughly one star level below you. (Players with maxed 3-star teams will see maxed 2-star teams and stronger, for example.) If there's a shortage of opponents worth a meaningful number of points in this band, you can be matched with easier teams than that. *And if you climb high enough in the event, anyone can see you as an opponent, even if they’re much higher level.*
• The experience of suddenly hitting a wall and seeing much harder teams is reduced. The upper bound on how difficult a team we match you with gradually increases as it becomes harder to find good matches for you, so you can still expect matches to get harder as you climb higher in an event.

This change will be a part of the Versus event starting on the evening of 4/2 and all Versus events that follow. Balance of Power will be unaffected by these changes.

reckless442 wrote:

In the pre-nerf system, I rarely took multiple hits on a two-match hop. In the last PVP, it happened more than once. I expect it to get even worse now that high scorers will be seen by everyone. While they are hitting one of the few 25-pt targets out there, multiple people will be lining to hit them for -50.

Fun times.

What I took from this bold part, in context with "this is what teams should expect to see" was that a 2* team that "climbs high enough" can expect to be smashed by 4* teams for points. Not that all high point targets are always visible to everyone. I could be wrong, but I suspect I'm not. Give the system a shot before you denounce it is all I'm saying. Not to mention this part of the announcement:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

For some of the most highly competitive players, this will have an effect on the speed of matches in Versus. We’re keeping an eye on how this affects Versus scores and, as with all changes that could have an effect on Versus scores, we’ll adjust progression rewards if that proves necessary.

They obviously want us to keep hitting the 4* progression reward with X amount of effort. They have already lowered it once due to a change. If that means dropping it in the new system then I imagine the 900 token will vanish to be replaced by the 4* progression.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

It wouldn't break them so much as unintentionally nerf them, and OBW is still good wtih her blue, you can just freely ignore purple vs Goons. I've thought about having goon AP vs not goon AP so goons only power themselves, but I think the easiest way is to just have all goon powers cost 0 and remove goon AP generation entirely.

You could simply tweak AI by giving it highest priority on Goon abilities, that alone would make Hero+2xfeeder more bearable without touching AP stealers/deniers. I think they want to keep AP float from Goons judging how DDQ gauntlet is set up.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Matchmaking Changes
We’re shifting matchmaking calculations to achieve the following aims:

• We used to use a persistent, hidden Versus rating to help with matchmaking. There were a number of ways where that could cause some quirkiness where people’s hidden rating gets far off from what we expect, and their matches are much harder or easier than they should be. That hidden rating no longer figures into matchmaking, fixing these issues.
• The removal of hidden rating makes it so that purposely losing to get easier fights stops being effective.
• Newcomers to PvP stop getting pounded on quite so badly, and retaliation fights are more likely to be within reach.

What I would like to know is how do the rating changes affect casual players who don't play on every event and may even take short breaks from the game (2-6 weeks). Does the absence from those events lower their MMR rating, or does in not count at all since the player neither lost, nor won games? In the past, if you came back from break, you would have much easier time in your first few events. At least this was my experience after coming back from a long break. In short, if a player does not participate in 3-4 events in a row, will he see a drop in enemy team strength, or does the break must be a lot longer for this to happen, if it happens at all?
Overall, all changes appear to be great and essential for the game's survival.

franckynight

Mmr is broken.. completely... Im testing it atm in heavy metal.. After the initial seed teams i m qeuing up only 166 teams maxed or near maxed.. No more iso farming..not a single 94* teams on the horizon even after 1k isos skipping.. bop seems to be the new standard for high end players.. Sure i see high points targets, my 3 first nodes were worth 140 Pts.. As a zero pt player.. Insane.. If i got it, in the new mmr, Im considered a 4* player so Im linied up with players just below my level ie 3* players.. Why not.. except 4* chars has no distinctive advantage over 3* especially with Gt nerf.. Long story short the game is unplayable.. Even boosted you cant finish a match unscathed (oh yeah the boosts nerfs come in handy now)..no sustained run.. pvp comes down to who will be willing to buy the most health packs during the last hour of the pvp.. Nice..

Vinmarc43

Well unless its bad luck , i just hit the 270 wall at ..... 171pts in heavy metal, really disapointed in that, was hoping for a smoother climb to the top. I hope like I said, just bad luck.
And to make sure, I skipped about 5-7 fights and not much better.

warcin

Vinmarc43 wrote:

Well unless its bad luck , i just hit the 270 wall at ..... 171pts in heavy metal, really disapointed in that, was hoping for a smoother climb to the top. I hope like I said, just bad luck.
And to make sure, I skipped about 5-7 fights and not much better.

I am seeing the same thing. PVP just got insanely harder

Unknown

I am in the low 200s and I haven't seen so many maxed 3x3* teams. The enemy levels are significantly higher than it was in older pvps, but this could be because this is the start of the event and no one has climbed too high yet. Things should become more clear after the first day.

Lukoil

Strange as 2* transition man i find these changes ok. And i am facing mostly maxed 2* or 92-95 3*.
250+ rating.
Yeah it is harder then before at low points (healthpacks om-nom-nom) but if all enemies will be the same it would be wonderful.

simonsez

Lerysh wrote:

It takes you X minutes to reenter the system, a fixed number that's somewhere around 5-10 minutes right?

If it takes as long as that to reenter the system, how is it as soon as someone says "Un#", I can find them in about 10 skips, or 15 seconds?

franckynight

Narkon wrote:

I am in the low 200s and I haven't seen so many maxed 3x3* teams. The enemy levels are significantly higher than it was in older pvps, but this could be because this is the start of the event and no one has climbed too high yet. Things should become more clear after the first day.

That has nothing to do with it.. Now there is some sort of "sharding into the shard".. You re lined up with ppl equal to your power.. If you re a 2* player you will face 2* and 1*.. If you re a 3*, 3* and 2*.. Etc.. Except when you cross a certain treshold everybody sees you regardless if you re a 1-2-3-4 * player.. At zero point i saw the leader of my bracket wandering around 350 Pts.. Now shielding at 400 seems legit.. Pitful.
Im being tired of being constantly punished by doing well in this game..

Unknown

So it panned out exactly how I thought it would, at 70 points I'm looking at max xforce/max Iron Man/max Falcon.

Will are these changes final? I don't want to waste my time hoping that it goes back if its staying this way.

Vohnkar

franckynight wrote:

Narkon wrote:

I am in the low 200s and I haven't seen so many maxed 3x3* teams. The enemy levels are significantly higher than it was in older pvps, but this could be because this is the start of the event and no one has climbed too high yet. Things should become more clear after the first day.

That has nothing to do with it.. Now there is some sort of "sharding into the shard".. You re lined up with ppl equal to your power.. If you re a 2* player you will face 2* and 1*.. If you re a 3*, 3* and 2*.. Etc.. Except when you cross a certain treshold everybody sees you whether you re a 1-2-3-4 * player.. At zero point i saw the leader of my bracket wandering around 350 Pts.. Now shielding at 400 seems legit.. Pitful.
Im being tired of being constantly punished by doing well in this game..

If getting to 400 points is so hard, they've managed to screw up the PvP system as well as PvE... PvE is hard enough with the insane scaling (although better than before thanks to only have to grind every 8h), now PvP is harder than before. I can't understand why is better to stay at maxed 2* characters than try to progress and get all the other characters maxed out.

I'll give it some events and see how it works out, but I'm sad to see the feedback on the forum, it doesn't give me much hope

Malcrof

Lukoil wrote:

Strange as 2* transition man i find these changes ok. And i am facing mostly maxed 2* or 92-95 3*.
250+ rating.
Yeah it is harder then before at low points (healthpacks om-nom-nom) but if all enemies will be the same it would be wonderful.

Lucky you, got through 1 round on each dot, and hit full teams of 166's in Heavy Metal. Transitioning, so no way to win those. The Simulator is worse, i didn't even get any pity rounds... first thing i see is 166 storm, 166 Patch, 158 GSBW .. still only 2 chars over 100 on my team...

Totals so far.. Heavy Metal, 63 points
Shield Simulator , if it could go negative, i would be around - 30

Unknown

I find it odd that low level players are happy about this change, its like turkeys voting for Christmas and all that. OK they've made getting 3 star covers easier, but it just means that rather than feeling like your getting better as your roster grows, the game will never make you feel like you are as everyone you face will be on a similar level. Any notion of skill has just been taken away and ranking now become who is prepared to spend the most on health packs and shields. I've spent my fare share in this game (I'm not a whale by any respects) and I've been generally favourable to recent changes, but this one just ended it for me.



I'm going back to Puzzle Quest 2, an excellent game without greed getting in the way.