*** Cyclops (Uncanny X-Men) ***

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  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    Not seeing why you wouldn't have 5 in his yellow because his red/black are nothing special compared to existing abilities so unless you have nobody else but happen to have a maxed Cyclops you might as well go for the configuration that is most likely to be able to contribute via support abilities. A 5 match move that can instant kill someone isn't really all that great but it's at least playable. The red's damage seems slightly too high for his HP tier (only loses to Fireball and Star Spangled Avenger (which seems to be a huge aberration compared to any ability in terms of damage per AP)) but is certainly not enough to be considered overpowered. Other than that his yellow is going to just further limit the number of color conversion abilities in the game before yet another infinite loop is reached, I think he's pretty solid but that also means he doesn't do anything even existing 3*s can already do. In terms of solid 3* character without a drawback he's still not going to approach Black Panther or Thor, and sure both of those guys are probably overpowered but that's the reality you have to deal with and that's before even considering the 4*s. In terms of 3*, he loses to Thor and Black Panther, and probably Patch/Daken just because true healing makes the world go round. If you have none of those guys, he could be a decent option.

    But Phantron, XF exists so everyone else is irrelevant. Why are we bothering to optimize for any other format except Heroics? Loki > Cyclops, and XF / GT / Loki covers literally every other format in the game. The only format where Cyclops is actually playable and not a glorified punching bag for XF / GT is in Heroics, in which case you want to build him such that he can carry you damage wise, hence 5/3/5.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed wrote:
    For veterans, I think 5/3/5 is the way to go to optimize for heroics. 3->5 yellow isn't a huge difference whereas 3->5 the other two are. I guess there's the obligatory 5/5/3 if you have XF or 3/5/5 if you have GT but not XF and are planning on running Cyclops with them. If you have BOTH XF and GT, then lets not kid ourselves: Loki is far better as the third for these two than cyclops will ever be, so 5 yellow is irrelevant in this team composition. The only time you're probably using Cyclops is in heroics anyways, and there 5/3/5 seems far better.

    Also note that since yellow is cheap, you might not actually have enough TU tiles on board to get the full effect after casting it once: the difference might matter even less considering that.

    Np, do you have the percentage of cascades comparing 3 yellow and 5 yellow? I always thought that your statistics help me to assess which is the best build.

    Doom level 1-3 has the same percentages, just swap the colors around. I'll probably add the cascade chance for destroying the row at some point later: swamped with work right now.
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,543 Chairperson of the Boards

    Doom level 1-3 has the same percentages, just swap the colors around. I'll probably add the cascade chance for destroying the row at some point later: swamped with work right now.

    Thanks, this is what I extracted from doom ability.

    For those who are interested in cyclops yellow ability,

    Level 3 - 51% cascade, avg red tile gained 2.52

    Level 4- 56% cascade, avg red tile gained 3.1

    Level 5 - 62% cascade, avg red tiles gained 3.6

    Another way you can analyse it, is the probability that the board will have 9 red after you use his mutant revolutionary. Higher levels may give you more red, but it also has a higher chance of cascades which may reduce the no of red on the board. So for the purpose of his black, it *may* be better to keep his yellow at 3rd level.
  • Phantron wrote:
    Not seeing why you wouldn't have 5 in his yellow because his red/black are nothing special compared to existing abilities so unless you have nobody else but happen to have a maxed Cyclops you might as well go for the configuration that is most likely to be able to contribute via support abilities. A 5 match move that can instant kill someone isn't really all that great but it's at least playable. The red's damage seems slightly too high for his HP tier (only loses to Fireball and Star Spangled Avenger (which seems to be a huge aberration compared to any ability in terms of damage per AP)) but is certainly not enough to be considered overpowered. Other than that his yellow is going to just further limit the number of color conversion abilities in the game before yet another infinite loop is reached, I think he's pretty solid but that also means he doesn't do anything even existing 3*s can already do. In terms of solid 3* character without a drawback he's still not going to approach Black Panther or Thor, and sure both of those guys are probably overpowered but that's the reality you have to deal with and that's before even considering the 4*s. In terms of 3*, he loses to Thor and Black Panther, and probably Patch/Daken just because true healing makes the world go round. If you have none of those guys, he could be a decent option.

    But Phantron, XF exists so everyone else is irrelevant. Why are we bothering to optimize for any other format except Heroics? Loki > Cyclops, and XF / GT / Loki covers literally every other format in the game. The only format where Cyclops is actually playable and not a glorified punching bag for XF / GT is in Heroics, in which case you want to build him such that he can carry you damage wise, hence 5/3/5.

    I don't know why you always make this straw man comparison against X Force (which is a perfectly valid one except I didn't even argue that here) when I mentioned that Thor (3*) and Black Panther are straight up better than him in 3*. So are Patch/Daken after factoring in how overwhelmingly powerful true healing is. In 5/3/5 he's still straight up worse than any of those 4 aforementioned characters.
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,543 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2015
    Phantron wrote:

    But Phantron, XF exists so everyone else is irrelevant. Why are we bothering to optimize for any other format except Heroics? Loki > Cyclops, and XF / GT / Loki covers literally every other format in the game. The only format where Cyclops is actually playable and not a glorified punching bag for XF / GT is in Heroics, in which case you want to build him such that he can carry you damage wise, hence 5/3/5.

    I don't know why you always make this straw man comparison against X Force (which is a perfectly valid one except I didn't even argue that here) when I mentioned that Thor (3*) and Black Panther are straight up better than him in 3*. So are Patch/Daken after factoring in how overwhelmingly powerful true healing is. In 5/3/5 he's still straight up worse than any of those 4 aforementioned characters.


    Actually I never really rate BP highly. Maybe it's because I max him late, so I never get the hang of using him.

    His black, while it's an AOE, is not enough to kill off high up characters like Hulk, GT, groot. And sometimes giving them 5 AP can allow them to use this power.

    Cyclops black, while he dealt less overall dmg, can more easily 1HKO one character.that will allow me into take out the one that is most dangerous.
  • atomzed wrote:
    Phantron wrote:

    But Phantron, XF exists so everyone else is irrelevant. Why are we bothering to optimize for any other format except Heroics? Loki > Cyclops, and XF / GT / Loki covers literally every other format in the game. The only format where Cyclops is actually playable and not a glorified punching bag for XF / GT is in Heroics, in which case you want to build him such that he can carry you damage wise, hence 5/3/5.

    I don't know why you always make this straw man comparison against X Force (which is a perfectly valid one except I didn't even argue that here) when I mentioned that Thor (3*) and Black Panther are straight up better than him in 3*. So are Patch/Daken after factoring in how overwhelmingly powerful true healing is. In 5/3/5 he's still straight up worse than any of those 4 aforementioned characters.


    Actually I never really rate BP highly. Maybe it's because I max him late, so I never get the hang of using him.

    His black, while it's an AOE, is not enough to kill off high up characters like Hulk, GT, groot. And sometimes giving them 5 AP can allow them to use this power.

    Cyclops black, while he dealt less overall dmg, can more easily 1HKO one character.that will allow me into take out the one that is most dangerous.[/quote]

    Battleplan makes short work of any one particularly high HP character that isn't Hulk. Hulk is a strangely tough matchup for BP but it's not like you can actually lose to Hulk. If we're limited to just 3*s, only Thor has both high HP and is a significant threat at doing damage. Groot might be close with maxed blue but his covers are harder to get and the blue takes 1 more match and has a delay before it can be deployed, while Battleplan is immediate.
  • Yellow power: is it possibile that even if i had the number of Tiles required the power didn't work?? icon_e_surprised.gif
  • CrookedKnightCrookedKnight Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,579 Chairperson of the Boards
    Shouldn't be, but bear in mind the extra boost requires more than nine red, i.e. at least ten.
  • TazFTWTazFTW Posts: 695 Critical Contributor
    Mikaveus wrote:
    TazFTW wrote:
    ^Boo! Cat Beast. Boo!

    Better than the latest evolution of Hank?
    bat-beast.jpg

    I approve of the human version of Hank. icon_e_wink.gif

    As for Sasquatch Beast, maybe slightly above Cat Beast. I'm not that fond of him looking more blue skinned than furry but it's better than Cat Beast's face.
  • PolaresPolares Posts: 2,505 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am having a though decision deciding which is the best option, I kinda like the 5/3/5 configuration, but maybe 5 in yellow could be great in the future.

    Someone has considered the 5/4/4 option? I converts 7 tiles and does 5855 with 1 turn stun, a tile less and 2350 less max damage. It is a big reduction in black damage but at least you get the 1 turn stun and its usable. It's not ideal, but maybe it is a good compromise...
  • turulturul Posts: 1,622 Chairperson of the Boards
    Polares wrote:
    I am having a though decision deciding which is the best option, I kinda like the 5/3/5 configuration, but maybe 5 in yellow could be great in the future.

    Someone has considered the 5/4/4 option? I converts 7 tiles and does 5855 with 1 turn stun, a tile less and 2350 less max damage. It is a big reduction in black damage but at least you get the 1 turn stun and its usable. It's not ideal, but maybe it is a good compromise...

    It really depends on your favoured team composition. (which color you would use rather by other hero)
  • Definitely my new favorite animations. I'd go 5/3/5 even as an xforce user because I like the damage as a backup just in case xforce gets downed. Will I end up using him...only time will tell.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Disagree. Five yellow means a bigger chance of cascade, which means potentially less red on the board when all is said and done. You get 2 more red tiles added to the board but also a 20% increase in the chance that three or more will be matched away. 5 yellow is better as a red generator but as an enabler for his black my knee-jerk assessment is that it's a wash.

    That's the problem. You have to save and/or have all that red on the board for black to be good and that's after you collect 13 ap. If there aren't enough red on the board, how many turns do you want to have to wait to use the black for it to be good?

    I'm 5/5/3 all the way. That seems to be the best Heroic build which is where I'll probably rely on him the most.

    What?!

    Seriously you need only 3 red on the board to activate black off of yellow. It activates off of 9 red, that's literally the average of any given tile on the board at any given time. Yellow could create 3 red tiles and it would more than likely be enough.

    Your only arguement could be after using a Surgical Strike you stole red, thus you need yellow to get the red back on the board, but then why would you need black when you Surgical Struck?

    If all you are trying to do is get enough red on the board to activate his black to full potential, you really only need yellow to probably create 3-4 tiles and you would be more than safe enough to get it.

    First, it activates at 10, not 9.

    Second, odds are better I'll get Cyclops red off twice before you can get of his black with 10+ red on the board once.

    Third, you'll be denying red on a lot more boards than black, so you'll already be collecting red or the AI will.

    Fourth, You're counting on his yellow even at 3 not matching away any of the red on the board, and there being enough TUP's on the board as well.

    First---Oops

    Second--You generate 1 more red AP from a 5 covered yellow vs 3

    Third--why am I denying red and not black? If I'm in PvE I'll deny who I'm playing against which is usually random, and in Cyclops PvP am I going to want to leave black so X-Force can surgical strike and steal red so I can then die to Cyclops or 4hor?

    Fourth--Lets assume there are 9 tiles of everything out. You create your 8 I create my 6. cascades match away 2.5 red you match away 3.5 red. That leaves me with 12.5 red on the board, that leaves you with 13.5.

    Using Doom Stats you would see
    Lvl 3 yellow--51% cascade, avg 4.2 tiles desroyed with 2.5 being red
    Lvl 5 yellow--62% cascade, avg 6 tiles destroyed with 3.5 being red

    You are correct you will be able to cast your red twice before I can 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time they would both be the same.

    So 90% of the time I will be doing 2400(if not enough red) or 7173(if enough red) more dmg than a 5/5/3 build and 10% of the time you would be doing 1393(if enough red) or 1883(if not enough red) by casting you red twice.

    I get what you are saying, and you do make good arguements, but going 5/5/3 and saying you will do more damage and get a 2 to 1 ratio of red is like having your retirement plan be winning the lottery, sure it's possible but not very likely.

    To me the reward of going 5/5/3 is not worth the risk of losing the black damage, and since he'll be a PvE or his PvP specialist I'm not gimping that damage.
  • JamieMadroxJamieMadrox Posts: 1,798 Chairperson of the Boards
    El Satanno wrote:
    This is all fine and good, but what about those of us that don't have a subscription to Marvel's online comic service? icon_e_sad.gif
    In other news, Cyclops remains the worst.

    I like Cyclops. icon_mad.gifLoki is the worst!
    Buy it. It's awesome.

    Otherwise, go out and buy the trades.
  • Yellow power: is it possibile that even if i had the number of Tiles required the power didn't work?? icon_e_surprised.gif

    If there are no team-up tiles, it should not let you activate his yellow.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    That's the problem. You have to save and/or have all that red on the board for black to be good and that's after you collect 13 ap. If there aren't enough red on the board, how many turns do you want to have to wait to use the black for it to be good?

    I'm 5/5/3 all the way. That seems to be the best Heroic build which is where I'll probably rely on him the most.

    What?!

    Seriously you need only 3 red on the board to activate black off of yellow. It activates off of 9 red, that's literally the average of any given tile on the board at any given time. Yellow could create 3 red tiles and it would more than likely be enough.

    Your only arguement could be after using a Surgical Strike you stole red, thus you need yellow to get the red back on the board, but then why would you need black when you Surgical Struck?

    If all you are trying to do is get enough red on the board to activate his black to full potential, you really only need yellow to probably create 3-4 tiles and you would be more than safe enough to get it.

    First, it activates at 10, not 9.

    Second, odds are better I'll get Cyclops red off twice before you can get of his black with 10+ red on the board once.

    Third, you'll be denying red on a lot more boards than black, so you'll already be collecting red or the AI will.

    Fourth, You're counting on his yellow even at 3 not matching away any of the red on the board, and there being enough TUP's on the board as well.

    First---Oops

    Second--You generate 1 more red AP from a 5 covered yellow vs 3

    Third--why am I denying red and not black? If I'm in PvE I'll deny who I'm playing against which is usually random, and in Cyclops PvP am I going to want to leave black so X-Force can surgical strike and steal red so I can then die to Cyclops or 4hor?

    Fourth--Lets assume there are 9 tiles of everything out. You create your 8 I create my 6. cascades match away 2.5 red you match away 3.5 red. That leaves me with 12.5 red on the board, that leaves you with 13.5.

    Using Doom Stats you would see
    Lvl 3 yellow--51% cascade, avg 4.2 tiles desroyed with 2.5 being red
    Lvl 5 yellow--62% cascade, avg 6 tiles destroyed with 3.5 being red

    You are correct you will be able to cast your red twice before I can 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time they would both be the same.

    So 90% of the time I will be doing 2400(if not enough red) or 7173(if enough red) more dmg than a 5/5/3 build and 10% of the time you would be doing 1393(if enough red) or 1883(if not enough red) by casting you red twice.

    I get what you are saying, and you do make good arguements, but going 5/5/3 and saying you will do more damage and get a 2 to 1 ratio of red is like having your retirement plan be winning the lottery, sure it's possible but not very likely.

    To me the reward of going 5/5/3 is not worth the risk of losing the black damage, and since he'll be a PvE or his PvP specialist I'm not gimping that damage.

    I'm slowing coming around to the 535 build. I will say this, I only plan on using him probably in heroic, so no doom threat there.

    Likewise, if I'm denying red, why would I want to put more of it out there for the AI to match, so in that case 5 yellow is probably not the best thing. Moreover, looking at the black vs red hero availables for herioic PVE, while there are more red than black, both his red and black do similar or more damage than the other abilities for about the same cost.

    Lastly, for other characters outside of heroic PVE, IM40 and maybe even C Marvel are better options to generate red since it only provides red for the player, not the AI to match. The only exception I can think of would be with patch (if Cyclops is substantially underlevelled) or with 4or (but she shouldn't need any help).

    I'll keep thinking about what y'all said.
  • For a transitioner I think 5/3/5 is best, Playing around with him in pve im able to pull off his red alot more times.
    I also think im40 is a slightly better red generator as its one match less (costs 6) and you'll get 9 red ap back, that is if the CD arent matched.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    I feel like the only person who didn't like Cage's yellow, so no surprise I'm looking like the only one who doesn't like Cyclops' black. It's just too expensive for a single-target ability. There are plenty of other characters who deal damage more efficiently. The one thing he offers that's unique is the ability to generate red. So yellow is where I'd want to put 5. Cascades and crits are what I'm looking for, not to meet the black minimum. And as long as I'm getting all this red AP, his red is as good a place as any to use it. His black isn't even strong enough to one-shot anyone I'd be afraid of... how many times am I going to get 13 black in one match?
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,543 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:

    Battleplan makes short work of any one particularly high HP character that isn't Hulk. Hulk is a strangely tough matchup for BP but it's not like you can actually lose to Hulk. If we're limited to just 3*s, only Thor has both high HP and is a significant threat at doing damage. Groot might be close with maxed blue but his covers are harder to get and the blue takes 1 more match and has a delay before it can be deployed, while Battleplan is immediate.

    So how do you (or rasinbman who down voted me) play BP? I genuinely want to know because I have difficulty using him even though I have him max.

    I try to go for black when I use him, but after I get his 12 black, I find that I can't kill off anyone, so I withhold the move. I then wait for 9 yellow, which gives the opponent more chance to get cascades.

    Do you spread your match dmg across the characters? To soften them up for the ROTP? Or you pair him up with a low ap character to soften the character?

    I really never been able to maximise my use of him. It's a shame.

    BTT, after using the loaner Cyclops, I begin to like 553 more.It's straight forward to play, and the AI will not misplay it on defence. I probably go with 553, like 8 months later when I can respec.... icon_razz.gif
  • atomzed wrote:
    Phantron wrote:

    Battleplan makes short work of any one particularly high HP character that isn't Hulk. Hulk is a strangely tough matchup for BP but it's not like you can actually lose to Hulk. If we're limited to just 3*s, only Thor has both high HP and is a significant threat at doing damage. Groot might be close with maxed blue but his covers are harder to get and the blue takes 1 more match and has a delay before it can be deployed, while Battleplan is immediate.

    So how do you (or rasinbman who down voted me) play BP? I genuinely want to know because I have difficulty using him even though I have him max.

    I try to go for black when I use him, but after I get his 12 black, I find that I can't kill off anyone, so I withhold the move. I then wait for 9 yellow, which gives the opponent more chance to get cascades.

    Do you spread your match dmg across the characters? To soften them up for the ROTP? Or you pair him up with a low ap character to soften the character?

    I really never been able to maximise my use of him. It's a shame.

    BTT, after using the loaner Cyclops, I begin to like 553 more.It's straight forward to play, and the AI will not misplay it on defence. I probably go with 553, like 8 months later when I can respec.... icon_razz.gif

    viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21083&p=298290#p298290
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