Operation Pay Harder: A Debrief

Options
1356714

Comments

  • Magic the Gathering could bring a lot experience to MPQ.

    1) It has a Pro Tour system of tournaments that enables Hard Core players to play very competitively and be recognized as Pros,
    2) They gave up the +/- 0/50 points a few years ago which enabled their playerbase to double in 3 years. Now, you win points when you play a match, win additional points when you tie or win a match, and never lose points anymore.
    3) They "split" the brackets when the Grand Prix tournaments have incredible attendance.
    4) The number of matches (called rounds) you can play is based on the total number of players playing the event, and the ranking is based on the scores the opponents you had made in the tournament.
    5) Matchmaking is based on the loss/win of each player. So Round 1 is random, but Round 2 is based on what players did. Like 2 guys who won the previous round are matched, and 2 guys who lost will play together. And so on.

    This system has made MTG the longest and most successful CCG game ever. It's been 21 years now.

    MPQ could improve with the same recipes.
  • loroku
    loroku Posts: 1,014 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Dear D3P,

    While the time shard system has clearly proven problematic, the ability to select ending times for each event has been the most pleasant change to this game since I've started playing this game. People around the world no matter where they live or what their daily schedule are can finally actually enjoy playing this game in their own time without having to sacrifice being competitive for event rewards.

    Unlike the more hardcore players, us players further down the food chain don't care about coordinating time shard entrances in order to get a bajillion points, and I don't actually see a lot of difference in average points that my alliance and similarly placed alliances are getting. This isn't to say that there isn't a problem with the system (not to mention that I disagree with the timing of the test in the middle of the Season), but it's a problem that should be mitigateable without scuttling the entire thing.

    Don't punish 99% of players for exploits that can be done by 1% of players. Please keep the selectable end times while addressing the problem of disparity between different shards.
    This.

    99.9% of the playerbase doesn't care that the top .1% can manipulate it. The massive, massive benefit to being able to choose how you can play this game MORE than outweighs the top .1%'s problems a thousand times over. Please don't go back.

    I think all this thread really proves is that there needs to be more of a punishment for joining / leaving an alliance at the last minute.
  • ark123 wrote:
    How many people play this game? Who should it be balanced around?

    MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

    Or not. icon_e_sad.gif

  • Okay, wise guy, you tell me - how easy is it gonna be to hit 1300 once Sentry (one of my only maxed 3*s, by the way) is out of the picture?

    I'm sorry if I sound unpleasant now. It is not intentional.

    How long have you been playing the game ?
    How long has XForce been buffed ?
    Don't you think you had the time to build an XForce since then ?

    I am building a second XF right now (from scratch not buying any cover), and have nearly all the covers, I am not the greatest scorer, I shield hop just like the others.

    Don't tell me I have a monstrous roster, because in the end, a match is a Featured character and 2 other characters, like Hood/Sentry/Daken. Nothing more than other players.

    Having an XForce is a question of choices :

    - playing a lot to grind enough Iso,
    - shield hopping to get the 4* covers you need

    You made choices you find good for you, which is very fine. But you shouldn't complain if you did not make the right chices to get Xforce. Once again, I am not blaming you or judging you, but that's what MPQ is about : choices. Many latecomers have maxed XForces so you can/could do it too.

    Why did you not make the choice of building an XForce ?

    I don't know if you are F2P, if that is the case, you can't claim to have the same roster as people who pay for the game (whether by shield hopping or buying covers or both). It would be very unfair for the ones who pay/play a lot if you could have the same roster/results/whatever.

    Sentry/Hood is Top Tier, in the past it was Patchneto, and in 2015 it will be Lady Thor/whoever.

    D3P can't survive without money and they will have to change the metagame on a regular basis if they want to make money. So you will have to build new characters to be competitive. That's the reality of many competitive games.
  • -JBK- wrote:
    arktos1971 wrote:
    Everybody learns from experience. D3P especially asked for feedback, and were willing to improve things.

    How could anyone know what would happen without experimenting it ?

    I'm the first to shout when there are things I don't like. But this is probably the best effort they have made towards the community in months. They have to be backed and not bashed/criticized.

    After all the efforts we've made to make the end times change (and the money they have invested in it), we would just say : throw the whole thing to the garbage because 20 people could show the system can be abused ?

    We would lose ALL CREDIT if we asked them to go back to what it was.

    Don't expect any future change in the game if you destroy time shards.


    The system needs to be re-examined and improved - and would probably best be tested in the off-season.

    This...the purpose of this project was not to get the system changed, but tonhave it improved and tested NOT ON OUR SEASON Time...

    marc
  • arktos1971 wrote:

    Okay, wise guy, you tell me - how easy is it gonna be to hit 1300 once Sentry (one of my only maxed 3*s, by the way) is out of the picture?

    I'm sorry if I sound unpleasant now. It is not intentional.

    I'm sorry if I sounded like a ****. It was intentional but completely unwarranted, and I apologize.

    How long have you been playing the game ?
    How long has XForce been buffed ?
    Don't you think you had the time to build an XForce since then ?[/QUOTE]

    Since I maxed my sentry, I have pushed as hard as I could. I got every cover at 1300 except the one in the Hulk event (because of, surprise surprise, sharding icon_rolleyes.gif ). I got a couple winning the bracket. My Xforce is sitting at 3/4/3, a solid 1-2 covers away from being great. All my ISO since I started setting him up has gone to him.
    Don't tell me I have a monstrous roster, because in the end, a match is a Featured character and 2 other characters, like Hood/Sentry/Daken. Nothing more than other players.

    Yes, well, there's a difference between having 4-5 reliable 166s, some of which just ain't that great in PvP, and having a maxed-out roster. Just to list a few 3*s I don't have maxed:
    - Daken
    - Deadpool
    - C.Mags
    - Thor
    - Hulk
    - Black Panther
    - Punisher

    With your roster, you could, in theory, play all day. Even ignoring XForce. Your Patch and Daken not cutting it? Switch to Thor/BP. They low on health and you have no health packs left? Deadpool/C.Mags. Blade/Sentry. This makes a difference in performance. It also makes a difference in who will attack you. The difference between 135/150/200 and 166/166/200 is not as big as you'd think but the psychological difference is huge - "Oh, I'll hit that" vs. "Meh, maybe I'll keep skipping".
    Having an XForce is a question of choices :

    - playing a lot to grind enough Iso,
    - shield hopping to get the 4* covers you need

    I started collecting XForce covers basically as soon as I figured out how the high-end in this game worked and got my Sentry maxed. I've missed one at 1300 since then, and a handful in brackets (which depends not just on you, but on how hard the other **** in your bracket who already have two maxed XForces want to work for it). Now sentry is going away, and I have to figure out where those covers are coming from. Maybe they'll let me sell my sentry for enough hero points to buy a cover or two.
    You made choices you find good for you, which is very fine. But you shouldn't complain if you did not make the right chices to get Xforce. Once again, I am not blaming you or judging you, but that's what MPQ is about : choices. Many latecomers have maxed XForces so you can/could do it too.

    Why did you not make the choice of building an XForce ?

    I did. I made the choice, and I played as hard as I could once I figured out how and got my tools sharpened. 'Course, now that's not an option. And I'm not the only one transitioning. How do you get 4* covers without having 4*s?
  • JamieMadrox
    JamieMadrox Posts: 1,798 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    I want to clear up a few things about OPH that have obviously been lost on a good number of people:
    1. This was never about beating the X-Men. It was about highlighting how the current time splitting of events is creating disparity amongst the player base. That said, the best way to make a statement was to beat the X-Men who have been the dominant force in MPQ since season 2.
    2. It took a ton of coordination across multiple top alliances to do this and it was close up until the last hours and it couldn't have been done without a ton of work from two OPH members that I won't publicly call out, but they were instrumental in making this happen.
    3. Yes, time splitting is a great feature and we do need it in the game. We all recognize this and we all agree that something needs to be done for the player base as a whole to make it easier on them.
    4. Time splitting as it is now is broken. Anyone not in the X-Men time shard is basically **** for season placement awards as they'll only score about 1/2 of the points for the same or more HP.
    5. In order for this game to last and thrive, it needs to be fair for everyone. Top players, bottom players, Europeans, Americans, etc
    6. Beta testing during the season needs to stop. If they need more than a week to do it, then extend the off season or run a second event that uses the beta test separate from the main season events.

    Now with that out of the way, thank you to all of my brothers and sister(s) involved in OPH for helping to make this happen. It was a long and hard battle and we made it work against huge odds. I know it cost us all a lot of HP and time and I, for one, will not be repeating it any time soon. I'd also like to thank all of the other members of the alliances involved for agreeing to support this project. Without them it also wouldn't have been able to have been done.

    Finally I'd like to address some comments made by my brother in arms, WilsonFisk:
    WilsonFisk wrote:
    Not to be a jerk, but just to clear it up, the idea came from DeadpoolsTacos originally. If I wouldn't have been so proud of the idea, I wouldn't have said anything.
    Let me take you back to a simpler time in MPQ history. It was Season 1. S.H.I.E.L.D was the dominant force in MPQ alliances. 5DA (internally known as HYDRA) had just expanded to 5 alliances and Venoms were consistently #2. The X-Men were barely one alliance that could scrape together a t10 finish, if they existed yet at all.

    5D got it in their heads one day to make a last minute swap of the top players from all 5 alliances in an effort to overtake their oppressors at S.H.I.E.L.D, They succeeded and the forums imploded. Harsh words were exchanged. Sides were chosen. A precedent was set. Shortly after The X-Men formed 5 alliances and dominated.

    So while you, sir, may have pushed for it now, you by no means initiated the concept.

    I still love ya though. PAY HARDER! icon_e_wink.gif
  • Now see if you would have said the reason behind this was to take the top spot away from X-Men it would have made sense.

    What exactly are you trying to prove or as you say 'get d3's attention' ?

    I don't know about you but if I am dissatisfied with a business my first thought isn't to give them more money.

    If I wanted to complain to Best Buy/Walmart/Target that I didn't like their new store hours I don't think I'd include a stack of cash with my complaint icon_lol.gif
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    "Not on our season time" is one of the funnier things I can read from the top alliances. Like somehow finishing 20th instead of 1st would make a lick of difference beyond bruised egos.

    "We took 20 high scorers and put them in one alliance" is something that can be done in any event. This doesn't really prove to me that the time slice system is broken. It proves:

    1) The free 20-man alliance can have hilarious consequences now.
    2) When the top 20/40/100 players put their mind to it, they can break the PvP system completely.

    Yay?
  • I did. I made the choice, and I played as hard as I could once I figured out how and got my tools sharpened. 'Course, now that's not an option. And I'm not the only one transitioning. How do you get 4* covers without having 4*s?
    Same way you now get 3* without having 3*s. Tokens, high tier PvE and buy them with HP. It's not problem with nerfing sentry or splitting brackets into timezones. It's problem with 'rich getting richer' reward scheme, given enough time all top spots are 'camped' by people that already have all rewards and they block people who are needing them. It also fits, if it takes ages to go from 2 to 3, shouldn't it take even longer to go from 3 to 4? I'm quite certain that the 1300 milestone wasn't intended to be reached by so many people. Of course now whatever balance they wanted to make in that regard is destroyed... anyway what you're looking for is rework of reward system, as this one clearly goes toward stagnation, you only earn rewards on same tier you are in, unless you are willing for pay HP for elevator up.
  • atomzed
    atomzed Posts: 1,753 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    [*]Time splitting as it is now is broken. Anyone not in the X-Men time shard is basically tinykitty for season placement awards as they'll only score about 1/2 of the points for the same or more HP.

    I still love ya though. PAY HARDER! icon_e_wink.gif

    Let me declare that I think the new choice of end time is great. While it may have some issues, I don't think this is it.

    X-men can leave the game anytime. Then what? Do we complain that the game are not giving us 40 points to hit?

    As to seasons, to hit 3000 pts (for that 3* cover), we need around 500 for 6 pvp. Definitely doable without shield hopping off X-Men.

    Not scoring high enough for top 10 seasons? Well, this would take shield hopping coordination to the next level.... choosing which shard to focus on. Oh, OPH has done it. And that shows that top alliance can coordinate in yet another aspect of the game. Hooray?
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    Options
    All this being said, what time slot are people picking for Heavy Metal? I don't want to miss out on my season points! icon_twisted.gif
  • Colognoisseur
    Colognoisseur Posts: 804 Critical Contributor
    Options
    I was the benchwarmer in Operation Pay Harder. If they needed me I would step in. They didn't need me and so I watched from the dugout as they celebrated on the field.

    The reason I agreed to be part of this is because doing this kind of experiment during the season is problematic for more than just those on top.
    By leaving a three hour window to manipulate alliances and with there being no cost to create an alliance how do you think the end op Season 8 is going to go down? with three hours to go someone could post on the forum that they want to create the Get Goddess alliance. They have three hours to rearrange twenty players to post any score they need to make top 100. What if you're in a top 50-100 alliance are you going to be happy that the player base has a free three hours to try and displace you. This is nothing but manipulation after the fact. You can't play harder you can't pay harder most of the player's scores are set. Now it is just manipulation and if I was in an Alliance that lost out to this I would be very mad.

    We were told this was a beta test but it took place as part of a larger event for a very desirable award. This should have happened between seasons and if they needed more than three PvP's worth of data they should have extended the off-season.

    The entire system is not broken and this is a good start but it is time to end the beta after IM40 PvP and learn from it and try again.....in the week between Season 8 and Season 9.
  • Beta testing during the season needs to stop. If they need more than a week to do it, then extend the off season or run a second event that uses the beta test separate from the main season events.

    I get the impression that unlike the MMR changes, what were a beta test, that the End time changes are a new feature and here to stay. Now you can argue that adding in new features during seasons what could effect season score is a little odd but since D3 decided there is to be so little time between seasons they going to have to that. You might be able to get some minor changes as they did ask for feedback but I am not putting any money on that outcome.

    Anyhow as of now unless I need the top 5 cover I be in with the big hitters so I can get to 1300 points on one or two shield hops to keep my contribution to the alliance total ticking over. If I need all 3 covers - i.e. Blade, Mystique, Second Hood, or R&G when its released I be taking a punt of using a different time slice to find an easier bracket and score slightly less for more HP outlay.
  • I appreciate the ingenuity, and thank you for making the game free for the rest of us.

    I think the real issue is that the top-25 alliances are suffering from burnout and the constant need to spend money to be at the top. They would like the game to be less "pay-to-win" at high levels. I'm not sure that's going to happen. What the posts don't tell you is that these alliances have 30% to 50% turnover each season due to time/money constraints placed on players.

    The core issue is not time sharding - it's how shielding works. To pull the curtain back a bit more on high scores, there is a "secret battle chat" shared by many top alliances. In this chat, top performers will call out when they are unshielding. This will allow them to be targetted. The other 50 people on the battle chat then line them up. The unshielded person completes 3 large point victories against (shielded) opponents. Then, when the unshielded person re-shields, the other people in the chat will un-shield and attack the first person for a 50 point gain. Properly timed, this allows top performers to "shield-hop" adding 100 to 150 points per jump (by lining up 3 big opponents) with little or no danger.

    There are 3-4 cliques that run battle chat, but the basic concept is the same - line up big targets, quickly unshield to hit them, then shield. When anyone sees a big target in another clique targetable, it gets announced in battle chat, and everyone targets that person. This adds an element of risk to the whole affair. The downside is that this does take money - lots of shields, lots of ISO spent to search through targets to find large ones, and so on. With different time slots, only people in your slot of searchable. This means that people have to coordinate timing. Still, this only affects the top-25 alliances or so (maybe 500 people worldwide).

    By the time you are below that top tier (like in the 40s where my alliance hangs out), the use of battle chat and these tactics disappears. OK, so 500 motivated players with a lot of time (for coordination) and money (for ISO/HP) are able to score really really well. I don't really see this as a problem.
  • I was the benchwarmer in Operation Pay Harder. If they needed me I would step in. They didn't need me and so I watched from the dugout as they celebrated on the field.

    The reason I agreed to be part of this is because doing this kind of experiment during the season is problematic for more than just those on top.
    By leaving a three hour window to manipulate alliances and with there being no cost to create an alliance how do you think the end op Season 8 is going to go down? with three hours to go someone could post on the forum that they want to create the Get Goddess alliance. They have three hours to rearrange twenty players to post any score they need to make top 100. What if you're in a top 50-100 alliance are you going to be happy that the player base has a free three hours to try and displace you. This is nothing but manipulation after the fact. You can't play harder you can't pay harder most of the player's scores are set. Now it is just manipulation and if I was in an Alliance that lost out to this I would be very mad.

    We were told this was a beta test but it took place as part of a larger event for a very desirable award. This should have happened between seasons and if they needed more than three PvP's worth of data they should have extended the off-season.

    The entire system is not broken and this is a good start but it is time to end the beta after IM40 PvP and learn from it and try again.....in the week between Season 8 and Season 9.
    Speaking as someone whose alliance is currently 114 for the season and therefore a candidate to be affected by the unlikely scenario that "instant alliance creation" will reshuffle the top 150 and not just the top 20 (for someone in the 90th place alliance it would take less time and effort to just score more freaking points in PVP than coordinate alliance shenanigans) if you're that concerned about it you should be joining a much more hardcore alliance than "barely top 100"
  • Lystrata
    Lystrata Posts: 322 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    By leaving a three hour window to manipulate alliances and with there being no cost to create an alliance how do you think the end op Season 8 is going to go down? with three hours to go someone could post on the forum that they want to create the Get Goddess alliance. They have three hours to rearrange twenty players to post any score they need to make top 100. What if you're in a top 50-100 alliance are you going to be happy that the player base has a free three hours to try and displace you.

    I think this rather over-estimates just how many people are scoring X-score in order to displace T50-100 alliances. Any alliance that's already in the T50-100 is unlikely to break apart due to a forum post, and gathering a group of people in three hours, on the forums, who aren't in the T50-100 already is pretty far-fetched, in my mind. I suppose the end of this season will show how that plays out.

    ...it is time to end the beta after IM40 PvP and learn from it and try again.....in the week between Season 8 and Season 9.

    This being the internet, my next question(s) will come across as antagonistic, so disclaimer: they're not. I really just don't see the logic/reasoning behind your statement. With that in mind:

    Why? This seems to suggest that because some of the T10 alliance players managed to score extra-high, the rest of the player base has to suffer through horrendous end times again? Honestly, I couldn't care less if the T10/20 alliance scores went into the millions, as long as I don't have to wake up at 3am. These time-shards have made the game much, much more enjoyable.

    Not convinced time-shard deployment/retraction should revolve around the requests of T10 alliances.
  • user311
    user311 Posts: 482 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    The idea of taking the best scoring players and beating the X-Men is something that could have been done at any moment previously. I dont think that the current situation has made that easier. There's just really not been a point to it. So now you all have created some attention but Im not sure the intent is clear. This doesnt seem to have much to do with how a few players can game the system ... as you could have always done that (at the expense of your teammates). Players could always jump their alliances or be replaced at the last minute. So nothing new.

    The only thing I think this highlights is that how a coordinated effort to have all the payers in a single timeslot allows them to raise their scores and lower everyone elses. There are benefits to the payers of less risk when hopping, and benefits to the rest of us of less death brackets. There shouldn't be any hate to the payers as the truth is that we do rely on their score to hit those 1300 placement rewards. I for one can't do it without them.

    The issue shouldnt be about time slots. We didnt know how D3 was going to implement it. Maybe they didnt either and just when with the easier to code option.

    If the top players are concerned about the integrity of the game and the rest of the players then lets challenge them to split up the time slots. Xmen (1), Raiders (2), Shi-ar (3), etc .... Lets see those high scores when you also are not in the same slice as X-Men.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    one simple fix is to not allow changes to alliances at certain times. Once a PvP starts I would suggest a 24 hour window to adjust alliance lineups and then you are locked in. Being able to jump back and forth here and there, this has to stop, it's why they don't allow it in any major sport, it's called the trade deadline, you implement this and it instantly stops the manipulation. Then you can start working on sharding and MMR.
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    one simple fix is to not allow changes to alliances at certain times. Once a PvP starts I would suggest a 24 hour window to adjust alliance lineups and then you are locked in. Being able to jump back and forth here and there, this has to stop, it's why they don't allow it in any major sport, it's called the trade deadline, you implement this and it instantly stops the manipulation. Then you can start working on sharding and MMR.

    Coding wise I'd imagine that would make it a problem for players looking to join an alliance, even a non-competitive one.

    They have code in place that says you can't rejoin your old alliance for a certain amount of time (6 hrs maybe?). They just have to alter that such that you can't join *any* alliance for 24-48hrs after you drop out of an existing alliance. That would take care of it.