All Alliances Increasing To 20 Member Slots

Unknown

I don't see this shaking up the top 100 very much. I know there are many 20 man alliances ranking in the top 250s. And most the best players are in the top 100 alliances. If anything, this may have an impact months down the road, but the short term will not be destabalized.

I do wish I could get a refund of my HP for the alliance I am no longer in now tho, clearly I benefited from them when we fell apart and our highest members left for more stable alliances when True Healing came out. A well spend 2,000 HP, truly.

Pwuz_

Lerysh wrote:

I don't see this shaking up the top 100 very much. I know there are many 20 man alliances ranking in the top 250s. And most the best players are in the top 100 alliances. If anything, this may have an impact months down the road, but the short term will not be destabalized.

I think that the short term fluctuations may be the biggest shake up. Top 25 (or even 50) won't shift too much since those guys pump out too many points on an individual basis to shake things up. But the top 100 could be in more dispute, sure there are probably a quite a few top 100 alliances that constantly crank out 600+ points per player for every event. But how many of alliances of 20 may occasionally make the push to say 700+ per player for a particular event?

I also expect this change to see more Alliance hopping as many via for competitive groups to reach individual event rewards.

Unknown

I realize I'm late to the party, but I need to throw in my two cents. I started Double Trouble so my husband and I could play in an alliance together (he was a total noob). We placed top 50 in the very first event with 10 members. I realized that having a 20 man (or woman!) alliance would help get those coveted alliance covers. So I paid for every spot except for #11 (thanks cg!). Maybe it was luck, maybe it was because I wasn't asking new members to pony up HP, but I found a great crew. Many are still with me today. We placed top 100 every season. We chat all day long. So yes, my initial investment has paid off in spades. I love this game and didn't mind supporting the devs, even after nerfing my beloved Lazy Daken and true healing. I've spent a few hundred and my husband spending a hundred or so. I feel like this move is a big f-you to your vet players and the ones who supported the alliances/seasons from the get-go. There isn't even a, "Hey, we know it sucks but thanks for supporting this crazy idea we had. We appreciate you." Probably because you don't. Therefore, I will no longer be spending any money on this game due to the sheer lack of consideration and appreciation for your players.

Killinstinct

What are those so called 'return on investment' from creating a bigger alliance? I have made a 10 men alliance (all by myself), which costed me about 4000 hp. We finish around 1000th place, so that investment is like 100 iso each tourney (esp after they removed HP from alliance prize)? Ow wow that is an enormous ROI. This is just a big f* you if they don't refund anything.

Unknown

So if they wanted to avoid some of this ire, they could have said "Hey, we're reducing alliance slot costs by half. We realized that it's more fun for people to play with larger groups of people, so we're making it easier to get to 20 slots." Then 3 months later they could have made it entirely free -> would have been predictable.

Unknown

I read this as "We don't have the proper bookkeeping to compensate players. So for the people who just bought them, we'll just make them file a ticket and hope they are still in the log before it rolls again. For everyone else, we'll make up a lame excuse. It's not like they can do anything about it."

For those of us that have used HP to expand alliances (and in my own personal case, two different alliances after the first one was... less than ideal), this is a pretty big insult.

chaos01

I read this:

1) the lack of response from Hi-Fi
2) the lack of response from the customer service link he posted
3) the resigned feeling of this thread

That:

There will be no compensation whatsoever. Too bad that 2000 ISO i have obtained from my 12 person alliance sure offsets the 6300 I put into it...

Bloo_Alliance

If they know who bought slots they need to refund them, in HP, in full. If they don't have a record, the next fairest thing would be to divide up the HP to all in the alliance who are a commander. Anything less than this will be their biggest PR snafu yet

Unknown

First off, to put it straight, i haven't spent any HP into any alliance slot (though i offered for one). That spoken, i will not get nor demand anything back anyway.

A lot has been said here, but i will add a couple cent, i call my opinion.

IceIX wrote:

Overall, we look at Alliances as something that everyone should be able to get involved in and want to encourage players to seek out like-minded players in the Alliance system.

To that end, we have decided that we're going to set all Alliances to the maximum of 20 slots. This means that any Alliance, newly-formed Public ones, or long time Private 'You must be this tall' Alliances are on the same playing field in regards to membership capabilities. Which of course, translates to increased social opportunities, Team-Up sharing, and competition for those high end rewards. Those loosely-formed public Alliances probably won't be able to take on the vaunted likes of the X-Men, Immortal Rage, 5DV and the like, but now those same Alliances will give players a feel for what an Alliance can really be like instead of being only a shadow of what a functional 20-person one can achieve.

As nice as it is, having a 20-member alliance or being part of one, everybody who wishes to be in such an alliance, can be in one, after just putting a bit of effort and dedication into the game, like all people being a member of the "20-club" has done, regardless, whether her/his alliance gave back any top 100 reward so far. If you really wish, to get more larger alliances, why not encouraging players to be more active in the game, especially for the new players becoming a bit more competitive earlier?
And argueing, that making all alliances 20 slots would get them automatically closer to competing for high end rewards is joke, isn't it? Taking a look outside in the fields of alliances shows clearly, that there are thousands of alliances hovering at 5 people, providing an average of 25 iso per daily reward, as the members are cycling through their inactivity. And you really think, those will compete for anything like high end rewards? Enlighten me and tell me how.
Even for competition for the top 100 alliances, which i don't call high end, there is much more needed than 20 instead of 5 casual players. Someone already put up the number of 20 people averaging 650 points in PvP, for example. You can't even think of this average, having a 20 people alliance with well grown 2* rosters. You need players, that are already well settled in 3* land in their transition phase. And those players most likely are already in a 20 people alliance, except the one or other man, who is saving up each little heropoint, he can afford, to build up his own alliance, as not everybody is as rich to buy all slots just while passing by. Those, in fact, are players, that most likely take weeks, most likely months, to develop their alliance, if they don't want to end up with 6 commanders, of which 4 are inactive and can't be kicked.
And those dedicated players get their reward as well:

"David wrote:

Moore"]We do feel though, that players who spent Hero Points in the past to expand their Alliances have reaped substantial benefits for doing so (increased Iso, covers, rewards, etc.) that compensate for the Hero Points spent to expand.

I see all those commanders, forming and trying to build their 15-people alliance cheering, as they recognize, how many rewards they got from their efforts for the last months, so that

"David wrote:

Moore"]who spent Hero Points to expand their Alliance within the last week

is really making them cheer and praise D3 loudly. So from this point of view, if you really introduce this feature, it can only be done, if you fully reimburse all alliance slots, that have been bought with hero points, otherwise a lot of people go straight up the wall.

Of course, you can talk about top alliances like X-Men x, 5D x, the like as good examples for dedicated, working top end communities. Of course, you can wish for more competition and more social activity. But just seeing a "few" 20-player-allys" and then trying to make people see, that besides those, there are only 5 player-clans, trying to catch up, is not leading to the right direction. There is a wide, greay mass of alliances in between. For sure those commanders of those alliances, holding 6 to 19 spots, saving up hero points and helping a lot of players getting through their different transition stages. That is dedication, that is the spirit for the alliance founders, you realy want and like. Ripping those off will be a real drawback. And now to the players, not the commanders any longer.

Rewards in this game, you mainly get for dedication, investing play time and not giving up, while trying to build your own future, investing more or less money. All the people, who play that way, are either already in a top 20 alliance, chatting, using additional apps like line and FB, or are part of 1* to 2* transition, not yet eligible for a - i dare say it - top 250 alliance, but will for sure soon be there and found their way into a nice, charming, social working group somewhere between more than 5 tired people and somewhat less than full grown 20 spots. In other words, are already taken care of by a commander mentioned in the abstract before. Which means, they are already socialising, they are communicating, they are actively playing the game already with this spirit:

IceIX wrote:

... Alliances will give players a feel for what an Alliance can really be...

Staying in smaller alliances, before i found my way into a 20-people alliance, has never hurt me. I appreciated the people driving and developing them and it makes me sad, if those people are just ripped of by not reimbursing them for all the effort they put in without getting any rewards.

And, there is another point coming up. Making all alliances 20 spot alliances regardless will make the selection process of a fitting alliance well more difficult. People cant see anything in the poor ingame-alliance search tool, that really is of interest. Neither an alliance description, nor whether there are active members in or not. Right now, the workaround "search manually by member count" gives at least some kind of hint, what might be suitable for the searching player. So after the first two alliance changes, almost any player knows, that joining a 5 player alliance will most likely be a very dead end, as, see above, activity is not shining bright in those. And so you work up your path.

As others said before, most players are not on the forums here, so most players don't read or write applications or job openings. If you take the only (manual) means, there is in the game for some kind of selection, how will you take care for that? Just let me or us know...

GothicKratos

Paintsville wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

I think a lot of people are taking the phrase "in the past" way too hard. Generally speaking, people don't use that phrase to reference three weeks ago...so...can we put the pitchforks away until say, Tuesday, so they have time to take to the tickets and work with people? Then we can light a fire if needed.

A lot of this seems preemptive, since, as far as I know, no one's been denied any compensation yet. As I mentioned in my previous post (page two), the only name dropped Alliances were akin to X-Men, Venoms, etc - i.e. the Top 25, basically - which it's hard to argue any of them haven't reaped their due reward.

They said anyone in the last week. Pretty limited.

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hi,

We understand that players who spent Hero Points to expand their Alliance within the last week may be feeling upset. If you fall into this category, please send Customer Service a ticket and we'll look into Hero Point compensation: https://d3publisherofamerica.zendesk.co ... quests/new

We do feel though, that players who spent Hero Points in the past to expand their Alliances have reaped substantial benefits for doing so (increased Iso, covers, rewards, etc.) that compensate for the Hero Points spent to expand.

Thanks for your understanding as we move forward with the Alliance expansion.

It seems pretty clear to me that he's giving an example of "players that spent HP in the last week", not "we're only giving refund up to the last week", because, you know, he didn't actually say "we're only giving refunds for /x/". To me "falling into that category" means someone that is 'feeling upset'.

The best wording ever? Probably not, but it's hardly Engrish either.

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

Paintsville wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

I think a lot of people are taking the phrase "in the past" way too hard. Generally speaking, people don't use that phrase to reference three weeks ago...so...can we put the pitchforks away until say, Tuesday, so they have time to take to the tickets and work with people? Then we can light a fire if needed.

A lot of this seems preemptive, since, as far as I know, no one's been denied any compensation yet. As I mentioned in my previous post (page two), the only name dropped Alliances were akin to X-Men, Venoms, etc - i.e. the Top 25, basically - which it's hard to argue any of them haven't reaped their due reward.

They said anyone in the last week. Pretty limited.

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hi,

We understand that players who spent Hero Points to expand their Alliance within the last week may be feeling upset. If you fall into this category, please send Customer Service a ticket and we'll look into Hero Point compensation: https://d3publisherofamerica.zendesk.co ... quests/new

We do feel though, that players who spent Hero Points in the past to expand their Alliances have reaped substantial benefits for doing so (increased Iso, covers, rewards, etc.) that compensate for the Hero Points spent to expand.

Thanks for your understanding as we move forward with the Alliance expansion.

It seems pretty clear to me that he's giving an example of "players that spent HP in the last week", not "we're only giving refund up to the last week", because, you know, he didn't actually say "we're only giving refunds for /x/". To me "falling into that category" means someone that is 'feeling upset'.

The best wording ever? Probably not, but it's hardly Engrish either.

And it is clear to me that "if you fall into that category" refers to those who spent HP in the last week. The fact that no red names have come on here to clarify this popular misconception only strengthens my belief. Am I wrong? I don't think so, but if it is as you interpret it, then I will give my thanks for the clarification.

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hi,

We understand that players who spent Hero Points to expand their Alliance within the last week may be feeling upset. If you fall into this category, please send Customer Service a ticket and we'll look into Hero Point compensation: https://d3publisherofamerica.zendesk.co ... quests/new

We do feel though, that players who spent Hero Points in the past to expand their Alliances have reaped substantial benefits for doing so (increased Iso, covers, rewards, etc.) that compensate for the Hero Points spent to expand.

Thanks for your understanding as we move forward with the Alliance expansion.

That is an absurd idea that we spent the money to get more slots so we've been compensated. I started my alliance the first day I played the game. Myself and one other individual bought all but 1 slot. And we were both fairly new in the game.

It's not like I opened the 20th slot and a bunch of max level players swarmed to it. I had to start off with a bunch of people on my level. We've worked hard to get to a top 500 alliance. And yeah I we have got a few hp from it, but nowhere near the thousands we spent upgrading. I could have probably had at least 3 or 4 more Maxed 3 characters had I not been buying roster space.

You lumping people who have bought spots together is an absurd notion that just shows how much you really don't care about the players. I get your trying to make a buck but now your slighting the people who have already spent money on this game... Why should I spend any more if your just gonna change the rules. Why should I invest money on sentry if he's just gonna get nerfed.

I know I'm just a cog in the machine and that my money must be pittance to how much you guys must get. But I sincerely hope you reconsider your decision to alienate those of us who have already been willing to spend money on your game.

God bless and Merry Christmas.

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

Well that's good news for the community. Over night everyone is getting free slots... for the rest of the mpq life.

And of course, with any change there will be people who are upset. I am just surprised about the level of vitriol for a change that essentially giving everyone things.

Car company: "Hi guys, we are upgrading all our cars to premium leather seats for the cars that we are selling from Dec 2014 onwards".

Disgruntled customer: "what?!?! How dare you give out free premium leather seats to everyone else including me!I paid for it since1973! You are devaluing my purchases.... I expect a full refund for my purchases in 1973, 1978, 1983, 19xx......."

You obviously haven't spent any money on roster slots.

atomzed

Odirty117 wrote:

atomzed wrote:

Well that's good news for the community. Over night everyone is getting free slots... for the rest of the mpq life.

And of course, with any change there will be people who are upset. I am just surprised about the level of vitriol for a change that essentially giving everyone things.

Car company: "Hi guys, we are upgrading all our cars to premium leather seats for the cars that we are selling from Dec 2014 onwards".

Disgruntled customer: "what?!?! How dare you give out free premium leather seats to everyone else including me!I paid for it since1973! You are devaluing my purchases.... I expect a full refund for my purchases in 1973, 1978, 1983, 19xx......."

You obviously haven't spent any money on roster slots.

There have been many in this thread who has said that they are ok with no refunds even though they paid for the slots. I am not the only with such sentiments.

IlDuderino

First thing to say is that this change doesn't affect me having spent nothing on Alliance slots etc. So I don't have a particular self interest in saying the below (beyond the last comment).

That out the way, I am concerned and slightly shocked by the handling of this and the apparent brushing aside of the legitimate upset of people that have spent hundreds of dollars in alliance slots. If I had spent that amount of money on the game I would be very unhappy about the huge devaluation of my "investment" in the game and by the "you've already had an advantage and have to live with this" attitude on show. I am not fully onboard with the rationale for this change to free slots but I think that if it needs to happen then the fair approach would be to compenate everyone that bought alliance slots at least to some degree (this could be something **** like a small % of HP spent or even tokens but that at least indicates the devs recognise the upset caused by their actions (and lack of forethought in how this was originally set up) and that they care about this, however little).

There is some merit to the argument that those who bought slots got an advantage to date but that was only the first step in achieving success and to actually achieve anything this had to be followed up by the often difficult job of managing and motivating the alliance, replacing leavers / underperformers and getting good scores yourself.

I think this not dissimilar to giving everyone a free fully levelled Nick Fury - those who bought him have got use out of him historically so should shut up complaining and get nothing in return if they bought him over a week ago (Devs I would be on board with getting a free fully levelled Nick Fury ). Or if you don't care about customer satisfaction for those who have spent money and want to quickly improve the PvP experience why don't you simply delete Sentry as a character - that would make PvP more interesting at the high level and save you the time on doing a nerf.

I will now approach spending money on this game with extreme caution - it seems that if I buy something and enjoy it for more than a week it can be given to others for free without any compensation. Which is a shame as I really enjoy this game and want to support the devs.

Unknown

Wow. Took me half of my work day to read this thread after not entering the whole weekend. I'm not lazy at work, I just have had so much free time the past 2 months. I consider myself lucky or getting fired very soon! I really hope I'm lucky

Having read all the opinions and thoughts of every post, I'd like to throw in my own 2 cents.

I have never paid for alliance slots. I have only spent $10 on this game once for 2 roster slots and I am glad I can call myself F2P. I really don't see value for money in this game, but it makes a hell of a good experience if you don't pay for it. After a certain point though, like every freemium game, game mechanics will really push hard to pay.

I have been on a T50 alliance and I have to say it takes a lot of effort to be there. While it is enjoyable to chat with other people, you have to provide some results. Those commanders that have created those alliances have helped countless people that have paid nothing (Like me) to become stronger. Their investments are bigger than just 15 alliance slots here.

About the alliance slot being free, I see it like this:
You buy a VIP ticket to fly from EU to the US. You sit and enjoy your flight, but suddenly during the flight, the whole plane can come and enjoy the VIP benefits for free. I would feel cheated and request my money back. But that's me.

Hope this works out in a way that we all get the best and no one gets the...

Dayv

Basically, the gold rush of players willing to buy large alliances dried up, right?

I'd be perfectly happy to get a free roster slot for every alliance slot I bought. The alliance slots were more expensive, but that would feel like a nearly fair trade anyway.

Unknown

This doesn't effect me whatsoever but... ehh. Couldn't you made change more tactically? It's common for products to go down in price gradually, but if you abruptly go from full price to free, people who bought it recently will feel cheated. If you would stagger it would feel better for recent buyers. Ex: Announce that in month time you will be bringing price of slots down every week by stacking 10%. Meaning your change would take close to 4 months to complete, but recent buyers could reap the rewards for longer.

Meh, not my problem really...

chaos01

I still think that commanders should be able to sell the bought slots back for a refund of HP

Pwuz_

DayvBang wrote:

Basically, the gold rush of players willing to buy large alliances dried up, right?

I'd be perfectly happy to get a free roster slot for every alliance slot I bought. The alliance slots were more expensive, but that would feel like a nearly fair trade anyway.

Hey! I'm only 75 HP shy of affording that 20th slot! Before the end of the Blade PvP, my Alliance would finally be at 20 members if this wasn't happening.