Can we talk about the misogyny ?

Unknown

Is it just me or is it slightly weird and wrong that a tough female like Black Widow would insult people by calling them girls? If anything, I'd expect her to be a bit more empowering of women than denigrating her sex like that.

FaerieMyst

The legacy of the comic industry is highly sexist and while it is changing, language habits are deeply ingrained and slow to change. Added to that, there are many stong women that still are influenced by the culture they were raised in - so while they are powerful, they don't necessarily recognize that in other women.

As the mother of four daughters I am very conscious of the messages that our culture broadcasts. It takes a lot of active parenting to counter that and if you aren't conscious of that need then there is no counter to what is dished out all around them. It astonishes me that men don't see a connection between their socio-economic biases about gender and the actual women in their lives. It's like the guy that explained to me how being a high class call girl could be a smart career choice but was astonished when I remarked on how very forward thinking he was to be okay with his daughter making that sort of career choice. No, he didn't want that for his daughter but it was a 'good' thing for other women - and totally unaware of the disconnect.

I have a friend that would tell you that he sees women as equal to men. So one day I tell him I am brain-dead and it is only mid-week. His response, "You're pretty. You don't have to worry about that sort of thing." I was flabbergasted. Yes, I am pretty. That is so not the point. He would never say that to a male friend. Oh, and in his mind, he was complimenting me - but it reinforces a cultural stereotype that pretty is how a woman gets by.

Unknown

Don't be a girl about it.

Unknown

It is pretty disappointing. Keep in mind that we you can count Marvel's current female writers on one hand.

I'm happy that new characters like Captain Marvel and She-Hulk now have health equal to that of the stronger male characters. The three weaker Widows and the low-health Storm variants just made me roll my eyes. There's an inexplicable (rationally) tendency to make female characters more fragile in games without really thinking about it.

Unknown

When you insult people, don't you specifically look for a word that would be hurtful to them? Should she have called them 'strong capable persons?' That would certainly be more appropriate but it would not have accomplished her goal, which was to cause emotional harm.

She reached into her verbal quiver and armed the most powerful arrow she could find at that moment.

There is a lot of misogyny in this game, but I just don't see this as being a part of it.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

It is pretty disappointing. Keep in mind that we you can count Marvel's current female writers on one hand.

I'm happy that new characters like Captain Marvel and She-Hulk now have health equal to that of the stronger male characters. The three weaker Widows and the low-health Storm variants just made me roll my eyes. There's an inexplicable (rationally) tendency to make female characters more fragile in games without really thinking about it.

The rationality would be that females have a tendency to have less testosterone (a steroidal hormone that causes all sorts of fun things, not the least of which is increased muscle mass and strength) being that men produce about 20 times more of it on a daily basis. I'm not sure what rationality there'd be for ignoring basic biology.

yogi_

fidsah wrote:

Don't be a girl about it.

I think you'll find this, more your thing.

Unknown

yogi_ wrote:

fidsah wrote:

Don't be a girl about it.

I think you'll find this, more your thing.

So what the video is saying is that "like a girl" doesn't exist as a real thing until around puberty, when the testosterone engine fires up and begins mass production in boys, and remains just as dormant in girls. Sounds like a biological distinction of note.

Unknown

Expalphalog wrote:

When you insult people, don't you specifically look for a word that would be hurtful to them? Should she have called them 'strong capable persons?' That would certainly be more appropriate but it would not have accomplished her goal, which was to cause emotional harm.

She reached into her verbal quiver and armed the most powerful arrow she could find at that moment.

There is a lot of misogyny in this game, but I just don't see this as being a part of it.

A strong woman thinks that being called a girl is insulting? That came from someone with an Y chromosome who gave zero thought to the sentence before moving on.

Zifna

Expalphalog wrote:

When you insult people, don't you specifically look for a word that would be hurtful to them?

You look for an insult that will hurt, but also something you find insulting.

As an example, an atheist might be insulted by someone comparing them to a religious person, but you're almost never going to hear a religious person accuse an atheist person of being faithful as if they think faith is a bad thing. Likewise, you're not going to hear an atheist scathingly insult a religious person for their lack of faith and their desire to see proof for everything. (Note: I am not suggesting that faith and rationality are opposed. I don't believe this - I'm just saying that a champion of faith won't insult someone for having faith and someone who believes in the primacy of rationality won't insult someone for demanding proof.)

Having Black Widow insult someone by calling them female suggest that she views femininity as being typically weak. You could say she's just too meta and ruthless to care that she's insulting herself too, but there are many other options that would have served her better. Pretending otherwise is just trying to justify a poor decision.

She's smarter than that. The writers failed her - and us - on this one.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

Expalphalog wrote:

When you insult people, don't you specifically look for a word that would be hurtful to them? Should she have called them 'strong capable persons?' That would certainly be more appropriate but it would not have accomplished her goal, which was to cause emotional harm.

She reached into her verbal quiver and armed the most powerful arrow she could find at that moment.

There is a lot of misogyny in this game, but I just don't see this as being a part of it.

A strong woman thinks that being called a girl is insulting? That came from someone with an Y chromosome who gave zero thought to the sentence before moving on.

As I pointed out with the link to the music video, women often use that term themselves, an in the correct context no less, and they don't have Y chromosomes. This seems to stem from a misunderstanding about how a lot of real women talk.

yogi_

Interesting thread.

I think there are few overall aspects to this (and many) human issues.

There is the simple biology, then the emotional / mental wellbeing stuff and then the broader societal and cultural influences; each both simple and complex and all often intersecting with each other, as we see here.

Unknown

fidsah wrote:

Ghast wrote:

Expalphalog wrote:

When you insult people, don't you specifically look for a word that would be hurtful to them? Should she have called them 'strong capable persons?' That would certainly be more appropriate but it would not have accomplished her goal, which was to cause emotional harm.

She reached into her verbal quiver and armed the most powerful arrow she could find at that moment.

There is a lot of misogyny in this game, but I just don't see this as being a part of it.

A strong woman thinks that being called a girl is insulting? That came from someone with an Y chromosome who gave zero thought to the sentence before moving on.

As I pointed out with the link to the music video, women often use that term themselves, an in the correct context no less, and they don't have Y chromosomes. This seems to stem from a misunderstanding about how a lot of real women talk.

Yes, and some gay people also use the word "faggot." That doesn't give you license to use it as a derogatory term. The first refuge of the misogynist or bigot is the fact that some people of the opposite sex also engage in behavior that would rightly be called sexist if performed by a man. This is not a counterpoint - it is merely unfortunate.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

Yes, and some gay people also use the word "faggot." That doesn't give you license to use it as a derogatory term. The first refuge of the misogynist or bigot is the fact that some people of the opposite sex also engage in behavior that would rightly be called sexist if performed by a man. This is not a counterpoint - it is merely unfortunate.

The idea that people can use language because they're part of an "in group" that has "permission" to do so has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with bigotry, because they're just building a wall around themselves and screaming over it about how equal they are while everyone else can't do anything they can, because it's theirs. The fact that a girl can do something and it's okay, but a man doing the same thing would be "sexist" is flat out inequality and bigotry in it's own right. That's saying women can do stuff men can't because of their gender, which opens the door for men to do things women can't because of their gender. Might as well ship em back to the kitchen after a few iterations of that utopia.

Unknown

First off, thank you to all for not lumping me in with that other guy. I know it's easy to collect all voices of opposition together into one target.

Ghast wrote:

A strong woman thinks that being called a girl is insulting? That came from someone with an Y chromosome who gave zero thought to the sentence before moving on.

I think the fact that the OP was insulted enough to call attention to it is evidence enough in my favor.

Zifna wrote:

You look for an insult that will hurt, but also something you find insulting.

Now this is a good point. I retract my disbelief, and formally admit that I was wrong.

Unknown

fidsah wrote:

Ghast wrote:

Yes, and some gay people also use the word "faggot." That doesn't give you license to use it as a derogatory term. The first refuge of the misogynist or bigot is the fact that some people of the opposite sex also engage in behavior that would rightly be called sexist if performed by a man. This is not a counterpoint - it is merely unfortunate.

The idea that people can use language because they're part of an "in group" that has "permission" to do so has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with bigotry, because they're just building a wall around themselves and screaming over it about how equal they are while everyone else can't do anything they can, because it's theirs. The fact that a girl can do something and it's okay, but a man doing the same thing would be "sexist" is flat out inequality and bigotry in it's own right. That's saying women can do stuff men can't because of their gender, which opens the door for men to do things women can't because of their gender. Might as well ship em back to the kitchen after a few iterations of that utopia.

That paragraph has nothing to do with what I wrote. You're saying that it is okay for you to engage in misogyny because some women also perpetuate sexist gender stereotypes, "Oh, why is okay for Kelly Clarkson to do it but not okay for me to do it?" It's not okay in either case. Back when Blurred Lines came out, Pharrell made a huge point about the fact that the song was co-written by a woman as a way of explaining away the unacceptable rapey overtones of the song. That wasn't an acceptable justification - it was just sad, and so is your way of thinking.

Unknown

Expalphalog wrote:

Ghast wrote:

A strong woman thinks that being called a girl is insulting? That came from someone with an Y chromosome who gave zero thought to the sentence before moving on.

I think the fact that the OP was insulted enough to call attention to it is evidence enough in my favor.

'Splain please.

HailMary

fidsah wrote:

The idea that people can use language because they're part of an "in group" that has "permission" to do so has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with bigotry, because they're just building a wall around themselves and screaming over it about how equal they are while everyone else can't do anything they can, because it's theirs.

False. The classic counterexample is black people calling each other "n---a." They didn't invent the term. There is no version of sane reality is which "n---a" was always what black people considered "theirs." While derogatory terms themselves can carry strong connotations, these connotations stem from historical (and current) use, derive directly from the intent of their users, and thus are not entirely divorced from the identity of the user. Ergo, while a derogatory term and its associated connotation can be so strongly linked that the term and connotation are seemingly interchangeable, e.g. "n----r", the basis of the insult is still in intent of usage. The appropriation of "n---a" by some black subcultures was an attempt to reduce the absolute power of the word, to emphasize the separation between a term and its general cultural connotation.

This is a big reason why racial humor, especially (but definitely not limited to) biting racial humor that pokes fun at an ethnicity that's not the comedian's own, is often a tricky proposition, because the comedian must toe the fine line between referencing the cultural baggage of the joke's racist references and distancing him/her personal intent from that cultural baggage.

fidsah wrote:

The fact that a girl can do something and it's okay, but a man doing the same thing would be "sexist" is flat out inequality and bigotry in it's own right. That's saying women can do stuff men can't because of their gender, which opens the door for men to do things women can't because of their gender. Might as well ship em back to the kitchen after a few iterations of that utopia.

While it's nice that one can wax poetic about an alternate reality where all unequal usage is precisely the same, and the existence of different connotations across different contexts must somehow snowball into justifying a return to the American 1930s (for women), or, again, the American 1930s (for blacks), that reality is not our current reality, because context, whether you like it or not, still matters.

Unknown

I'm not going to offer much of an opinion, as this is one of those issues where some people are more sensitive than others, and there is a large range of different viewpoints. All I'll add to this is to say that I've observed personally as strong, confident and successful women have said things like "I'm going out with the girls tonight", "Just between us girls" and "hi girls!" when referring to other women/friends.
While it's certainly possible in the game scenario Black Widow was being insulting, she also could have just been using a general catch-all.
Depends how you want to look at it. There will always be some that don't care, and some that read so far between the lines that there's a whole novel underneath to them.

Edit: I'm also a little lost. In which mission does BW use "girls"? In one mission she says "gentlemen" and in another "ladies". Both of these seem equally formal-mocking speech rather than anything else.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

Expalphalog wrote:

Ghast wrote:

A strong woman thinks that being called a girl is insulting? That came from someone with an Y chromosome who gave zero thought to the sentence before moving on.

I think the fact that the OP was insulted enough to call attention to it is evidence enough in my favor.

'Splain please.

You implied that a strong woman would not find being called a girl insulting. I was merely pointing out that the thread creator (presumably a strong woman), found it insulting. Ergo, a strong woman finding 'girl' insulting is not just something from the mind of a bad male writer.


However, as above, I have already reversed my position so bear in mind that I am not further arguing the point, merely explaining my previous statement per your request.

Unknown

Is this the scene where she greets a group of pyros (female goons) with "hello girls" right after the node where she met a group of male goons by saying "hello boys"? If so, I think it's reading too much into the dialogue to say that it's meant as some huge sexist insult.

With that said, I think the big issue with sexism in any media is that the first and primary attribute focused on a female character is her looks.
If a writer tries to make a strong female character, they just make a beautiful, super-athletic genius with no personality or real character. Then everyone who sees her will remark about how lovely she is. This just creates boring, meaningless characters who give girls the perception that, of all those qualities, being pretty is the one that really matters.