Can we talk about the misogyny ?

Rusalka

Vairelome wrote:

*My* society does not "keep women in subordinate roles," nor is it fixated on physical strength differentials.

I take it you're not a representative example, then?

Also, does your society publish any superhero comics? I'd be interested in reading those.

Unknown

Rusalka wrote:

Vairelome wrote:

*My* society does not "keep women in subordinate roles," nor is it fixated on physical strength differentials.

I take it you're not a representative example, then?

Also, does your society publish any superhero comics? I'd be interested in reading those.

Since you've decided to move from snarky condescension and bad-faith posturing to direct insults, I believe I am done with this conversation. Civility is one of those not-sex-linked useful attributes; you should look into acquiring some.

Unknown

So, bring on Marvel's new Thor as the next 4* then, and keep her Lazy

Unknown

On most of these comic covers I see male names. So im sure if most of them are being written by men its going to go in that direction.

bcas76

bcas76 wrote:

The problem is we can't even have a discussion about these issues honestly and without defensiveness.

Discussions and lectures are two different things. Are you willing to concede that people who largely disagree with your viewpoint *might* have something worthwhile to say? Even if you don't end up finding it convincing?[/quote]

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or being used to make a point, hopefully the latter. I certainly didn't mean to lecture but to bring up the underlying structural and societal issues and how they come out in both media and media discourse. You're right, the failure is when we stop listening and just defend our own positions, becoming more entrenched in our own views and less tolerant.

Ralstonator wrote:

bcas76 wrote:

Ralstonator wrote:

Is original poster sure they know what misogyny means? I just ask because it's a little odd that they somehow took a comment that is vaguely sexist, and most likely not even intentionally, at the very worst and made the huge leap into it meaning that the game devs flat out hate the entire female gender, which is what misogyny actually means. You can argue that they're allegedly sexist and ignorant all day if you like, but to accuse them of misogyny over this is some pretty serious overreacting.

Thank you for making my point.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to imply that my pointing out that misogyny and sexism aren't the same thing is somehow some kind of an endorsement or acceptance of either or both, just to help illustrate your own earlier point. I'll pretend that it still sounded clever though, if you really need the validation that badly.

Don't spend too much time on your scathing follow-up either, as I am officially now going to run away screaming from this thread and never look back, as I should have done in the first place.

And then I proved MY OWN point by being quickly dismissive and rude in response to a genuine, thought out reply without attempting to engage in debate. I have thoughts on the difference between misogyny and sexism, but Ralstonator wouldn't listen now even if I tried to explain because I was a needlessly hostile. I was wrong to do that-especially to do so while in my car driving to work. I'm embarrassed and I apologize.

Message boards have so much potential but seem to bring out the worst in everyone. I think I'll follow Ralstonator's lead and flee (not that you care, I just like typing).

MunitionsFrenzy

Vairelome wrote:

Since you've decided to move from snarky condescension and bad-faith posturing to direct insults, I believe I am done with this conversation.

I'm amazed you stuck it out as long as you did. This is the most absurd thread I've seen on any forum in quite a long time.

Unknown

I just want to say that I am really impressed by the quality of the discussion here, given the topic. Not at all what I was expecting from the subject header and makes me feel good about our ridiculous little community.

It's good to see the casual use of "girls" as an insult get called out.

For those of you who feel like this is an overreaction or question what this has to do with misogyny I just ask that you take some time to think about how exactly referring to men or boys as "girls" is an insult. Why is it that so many of the worst insults for men involve likening them to women? To me this indicates that our society does not value women as much as men, which seems pretty misogynistic to me.

MunitionsFrenzy

soursenseless wrote:

For those of you who feel like this is an overreaction or question what this has to do with misogyny I just ask that you take some time to think about how exactly referring to men or boys as "girls" is an insult. Why is it that so many of the worst insults for men involve likening them to women? To me this indicates that our society does not value women as much as men, which seems pretty misogynistic to me.

While this is a pretty silly overreaction, that isn't even the silliest tinykitty about this thread.

Silliest tinykitties about this thread:

1) There are two adjacent missions in this series. In one, you're up against 2 male + 1 female opponents; as a result, Black Widow greets them with "Good evening, gentlemen." In the one to which the OP is referring, you're up against 2 female + 1 male opponents, so Natasha says "Hello, ladies." This is a perfectly reasonable set of occurrences. But the OP took this quote completely out of context to start a completely ridiculous and meaningless "discussion".

2) Even IF Natasha's choice of diction could be interpreted as a sexist insult in-context, which it can't, it wouldn't matter. She's sarcastic and cold when she want to be, which is almost all the time against opponents in order to anger them and make them more predictable. She'll insult people with whatever hurts them, regardless of whether or not she would consider it hurtful were it directed at her. She doesn't have to consider "lady" to be an insult in order to use it as one against someone who'd be pissed about it.

3) If you want to claim that the context of the quote isn't sufficient reason to use the term "ladies", then you are the one being sexist. It's okay to say "gentlemen" when referring to a group that is primarily but not completely male (as she does in the prior mission), but "ladies" in reference to a group that is primarily but not completely female is "sexist"? No, that's you trying to find an insult where there is none, because you are the one projecting your double standards onto others.

4) The quote is totally in-character for Black Widow, and tinykitty-ing about it on a game board when they're just being true to the source material is silly.

This thread is absurd and I'm really getting sick of seeing it on the front page.

(EDIT: Apparently that last one doesn't get caught by the "tinykitty" censor. Manually editing in "tinykitty" feels weird.)

HailMary

EternalLurker wrote:

This thread is absurd and I'm really getting sick of seeing it on the front page.

I heard somewhere that commenting on a thread bumps it to the top of the front page.

MunitionsFrenzy

Except I got sick of it enough to actually take the time and explain why the thread was stupid, and it looks like people have finally given up. Though all the -rep on my earlier posts is highly amusing.

NighteyesGrisu

EternalLurker wrote:

Except I got sick of it enough to actually take the time and explain why the thread was stupid, and it looks like people have finally given up. Though all the -rep on my earlier posts is highly amusing.

yeah, I'm getting so sick of seeing it on the front page, I'm going to make sure it stays there

Unknown

EternalLurker wrote:

Natasha's sarcastic and cold when she want to be, which is almost all the time against opponents in order to anger them and make them more predictable. She'll insult people with whatever hurts them, regardless of whether or not she would consider it hurtful were it directed at her. She doesn't have to consider "lady" to be an insult in order to use it as one against someone who'd be pissed about it.

Not even remotely touching anything else in this thread, but I think this is quite to the point about the original complaint. Black Widow is a master of mental manipulation, and if she thought that being called girls or ladies or fluffy bunnies would rattle a bunch of paramilitary tough guys enough to give her an edge, you can bet that's what she'd do. Whether or not that's what the writer was thinking when he/she/it wrote that line is really anyone's guess.

We all view the world through a lens colored by our own experiences and it can cause bias. Some people are more aware of this fact than others, and some people react very emotionally to that bias. Text is particularly susceptible to this, because there's nothing else to base your reaction on other than the worlds alone. No body language or tone of voice. So while some people may be inclined to read some other deeper meaning or agenda into the original line in question, there really isn't anything innately sexist or misogynistic about it. It's just Black Widow messing with a bunch of mooks.

Pylgrim

Pretty sure that the mission OP is taking about when BW says "hello ladies", she's speaking to the TWO female npcs, pointedly ignoring the male one, who chooses to take offence. In other words, the only sexist character in that exchange is the old white guy. Seems legit to me.

Unknown

Just popping back in for a second because I wanted to say thanks to bcas for being such a champ about our earlier "discussion" and to counter-apologize for snapping at him too. Debates like this just bring out the anger in everyone don't they? That's why I will now run away screaming again, but I'll make a toast to bcas on my way out! *run*

Unknown

Thugpatrol wrote:

Not even remotely touching anything else in this thread, but I think this is quite to the point about the original complaint. Black Widow is a master of mental manipulation, and if she thought that being called girls or ladies or fluffy bunnies would rattle a bunch of paramilitary tough guys enough to give her an edge, you can bet that's what she'd do. Whether or not that's what the writer was thinking when he/she/it wrote that line is really anyone's guess.

We all view the world through a lens colored by our own experiences and it can cause bias. Some people are more aware of this fact than others, and some people react very emotionally to that bias. Text is particularly susceptible to this, because there's nothing else to base your reaction on other than the worlds alone. No body language or tone of voice. So while some people may be inclined to read some other deeper meaning or agenda into the original line in question, there really isn't anything innately sexist or misogynistic about it. It's just Black Widow messing with a bunch of mooks.

Oh there it is very much innately sexist to calling a male a female for derogatory purposes. And yes the lens on which we see the world effects the way we view it, woman who are constantly being treated as something less then male get pissed off when we see things that perpetuate that idea. You don't hear women go around to other woman saying "don't be such a guy". The context doesn't matter, the fact that calling a male a female as an insult is at its core sexist.

Unknown

eris-wtga wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Black Widow is a master of mental manipulation, and if she thought that being called girls or ladies or fluffy bunnies would rattle a bunch of paramilitary tough guys enough to give her an edge, you can bet that's what she'd do. Whether or not that's what the writer was thinking when he/she/it wrote that line is really anyone's guess.

While some people may be inclined to read some other deeper meaning or agenda into the original line in question, there really isn't anything innately sexist or misogynistic about it. It's just Black Widow messing with a bunch of mooks.

Oh there it is very much innately sexist to calling a male a female for derogatory purposes. And yes the lens on which we see the world effects the way we view it, woman who are constantly being treated as something less then male get pissed off when we see things that perpetuate that idea. You don't hear women go around to other woman saying "don't be such a guy". The context doesn't matter, the fact that calling a male a female as an insult is at its core sexist.

Context always matters, and you seem to be confusing the context of my argument and the original post to which I was responding. Who are you calling sexist in this equation? The game, and by extension the writer, for having this line in it? Are you calling the character of Black Widow sexist? If your argument is that in the most general sense calling a man by a feminine term to insult him is sexist, then yes. Of course. But that's not what this conversation was originally about. I was defending the line as being in character, and by extension the writer and the game as not being sexist because of the context in which it appears. Black Widow is a realist, not an feminist idealist. She lives in a world of results, and if calling some macho dude a girl is going to rattle him and give her an edge she's going to do it. That's all I was saying.

Unknown

Black Widow is a realist, not an feminist idealist. She lives in a world of results, and if calling some macho dude a girl is going to rattle him and give her an edge she's going to do it. That's all I was saying.

Would the Disney-owned character of Black Widow also use racial slurs in a match three puzzle game if it meant surprising a dangerous villain? Come on.

Unknown

soursenseless wrote:

Black Widow is a realist, not an feminist idealist. She lives in a world of results, and if calling some macho dude a girl is going to rattle him and give her an edge she's going to do it. That's all I was saying.

Would the Disney-owned character of Black Widow also use racial slurs in a match three puzzle game if it meant surprising a dangerous villain? Come on.

First off, this is a Marvel branded game, not Disney. That Disney owns Marvel is not relevant to this conversation. Second, this game is rated T for Teen, not E for Everyone, and includes a warning about "Mild Language", which in the greater scheme of things more than covers the line in question. If you don't like that you can take it up with the ESRB, to which I say good luck. As for the character of Black Widow, she's appeared in some very adult themed story lines and has been a party to dialog many times worse than what's in question here.

Unknown

Thugpatrol wrote:

Context always matters, and you seem to be confusing the context of my argument and the original post to which I was responding. Who are you calling sexist in this equation? The game, and by extension the writer, for having this line in it? Are you calling the character of Black Widow sexist? If your argument is that in the most general sense calling a man by a feminine term to insult him is sexist, then yes. Of course. But that's not what this conversation was originally about. I was defending the line as being in character, and by extension the writer and the game as not being sexist because of the context in which it appears. Black Widow is a realist, not an feminist idealist. She lives in a world of results, and if calling some macho dude a girl is going to rattle him and give her an edge she's going to do it. That's all I was saying.

I'm saying calling a dude a chick as an insult sexist, upon which you agree. how does the context change it?

As for the point of psych warfare, there are other ways to do it other then resorting to a sexist insult. Which I gleem as the original point of this thread.

abmoraz

Zifna wrote:

Expalphalog wrote:

When you insult people, don't you specifically look for a word that would be hurtful to them?

You look for an insult that will hurt, but also something you find insulting.

As an example, an atheist might be insulted by someone comparing them to a religious person, but you're almost never going to hear a religious person accuse an atheist person of being faithful as if they think faith is a bad thing. Likewise, you're not going to hear an atheist scathingly insult a religious person for their lack of faith and their desire to see proof for everything. (Note: I am not suggesting that faith and rationality are opposed. I don't believe this - I'm just saying that a champion of faith won't insult someone for having faith and someone who believes in the primacy of rationality won't insult someone for demanding proof.)

Having Black Widow insult someone by calling them female suggest that she views femininity as being typically weak. You could say she's just too meta and ruthless to care that she's insulting herself too, but there are many other options that would have served her better. Pretending otherwise is just trying to justify a poor decision.

She's smarter than that. The writers failed her - and us - on this one.

Just to play devil's advocate on the term "throw like a girl" (cause there is little argument that comic books are skewed towards the male demographic and rarely write or clothe the female characters in the same manner as the males), but I have played on several co-ed sport teams, ranging from Bowling to Hockey to Softball to Flag Football to Billiards. I have heard the phrase "you <VERB> like a girl" used a lot. Ironically, in those situations, it's nearly always the women saying it towards the men. In fact, the only times I've ever seen it said to a female (or to another male) is after it's been said by a female toward the intended target first OR towards a female that had said it earlier as a sort of comedic "eat your words" situation.

Realistically, girls are not good throwers. Neither are little boys. Neither can come close to an adult who is a trained quaterback/pitcher/fielder/hurler/etc... I've heard the phrase "you throw like a little kid" used regularly as well. Ideally, I think Widow in that stage is not only insulting the opponents' lack of physical ability, but is doublely insulting him by calling into question his gender (note: NOT the same thing as sex).

A variation of the phrase I've heard many times directed at males in golf is "Nice drive, Alice. Does your husband play?" I find that one quite funny