eris-wtga wrote: I'm saying calling a dude a chick as an insult sexist, upon which you agree. how does the context change it? As for the point of psych warfare, there are other ways to do it other then resorting to a sexist insult. Which I gleem as the original point of this thread.
Vairelome wrote: I think the "you throw like a girl" insult works as an insult less because of a "you are feminine" implication and more because of a "you are not masculine" implication. In a world where some women are killed because they were **** or hideously scarred by acid because they sought an education, calling the possibly-questionable use of language by a (female!) comic-book character "misogyny" cheapens the word and concept beyond all reason. It only demonstrates a complete lack of moral perspective.
If you don't like her choice of language and it makes you like the character less, so be it. If it makes you think less of the writers for choosing that particular taunt for the character, so be it. But it doesn't make the line, the character, the writers, or the game sexist or misogynistic for its inclusion. It means in this context you object to its usage. To which I respond, Black Widow doesn't care. She's got a job to do.
Thugpatrol wrote: The context is that this is a line of dialog spoken by a fictional character who does not share your world view. To her the only thing that matters is completing the mission and thwarting the villains. She's prepared to use anything at her disposal, including but not limited to her sex appeal, her perceived weakness as a woman, and even simple taunts. Could she have chosen a different taunt in that circumstance? Maybe. But that one was certainly appropriate, and this thread is proof enough of its potentially inflammatory quality. She could even be considered to be using it ironically as a strong woman using their own childish taunts against a bunch of macho soldiers, and in that context it could even be considered empowering. If you don't like her choice of language and it makes you like the character less, so be it. If it makes you think less of the writers for choosing that particular taunt for the character, so be it. But it doesn't make the line, the character, the writers, or the game sexist or misogynistic for its inclusion. It means in this context you object to its usage. To which I respond, Black Widow doesn't care. She's got a job to do.
abmoraz wrote: Um, you are obviously not familiar with the "woman in a refrigerator" concept in comics. http://www.comicvine.com/women-in-refrigerators/4015-43763/
eris-wtga wrote: abmoraz wrote: Um, you are obviously not familiar with the "woman in a refrigerator" concept in comics. http://www.comicvine.com/women-in-refrigerators/4015-43763/ To be fair, you can make a male list just like that
abmoraz wrote: eris-wtga wrote: abmoraz wrote: Um, you are obviously not familiar with the "woman in a refrigerator" concept in comics. http://www.comicvine.com/women-in-refrigerators/4015-43763/ To be fair, you can make a male list just like that Yes, they have. It's called "Dead Guy Defrosting".
LevitateMe wrote: Is it just me or is it slightly weird and wrong that a tough female like Black Widow would insult people by calling them girls? If anything, I'd expect her to be a bit more empowering of women than denigrating her sex like that.
eris-wtga wrote: Thugpatrol wrote: The context is that this is a line of dialog spoken by a fictional character who does not share your world view. If you don't like her choice of language and it makes you like the character less, so be it. If it makes you think less of the writers for choosing that particular taunt for the character, so be it. But it doesn't make the line, the character, the writers, or the game sexist or misogynistic for its inclusion. It means in this context you object to its usage. To which I respond, Black Widow doesn't care. She's got a job to do. I object to it's usage, period. The context is irrelevant to the core that the use of calling males feminine as an insult is sexist. "She" did not say anything, she is a fictional character written by others (who more than likely are male). Writers who could have used other ways to convey their message, but went this way, probably because they don't even think of what it actually means. This is the subversive nature of modern day sexism. It is ingrained in our psyche that it doesn't seem like anything, woman are just vulnerable to this as men are. This is why you will have women use sexist language. Gawd forbid a woman points out some systemic sexism & get blown off as a crazy feminiazi (this is a generalization & by no means directed @ anyone here)
Thugpatrol wrote: The context is that this is a line of dialog spoken by a fictional character who does not share your world view. If you don't like her choice of language and it makes you like the character less, so be it. If it makes you think less of the writers for choosing that particular taunt for the character, so be it. But it doesn't make the line, the character, the writers, or the game sexist or misogynistic for its inclusion. It means in this context you object to its usage. To which I respond, Black Widow doesn't care. She's got a job to do.
soursenseless wrote: If you don't like her choice of language and it makes you like the character less, so be it. If it makes you think less of the writers for choosing that particular taunt for the character, so be it. But it doesn't make the line, the character, the writers, or the game sexist or misogynistic for its inclusion. It means in this context you object to its usage. To which I respond, Black Widow doesn't care. She's got a job to do. This is missing the point. If the writers had had her making lighthearted racist comments I really doubt you'd be arguing "that's just who she is, don't get angry at the character!"
Thugpatrol wrote: Your objection is to the use of this kind of language anywhere, and that's admirable. If your crusade is to have society change its acceptance of it I wish you the best of luck. But that doesn't change the fact that this language is used in the real world by real people, and it is reasonable for this fictional character to use it as a weapon in this context. You call it subversive sexism, I call it believable dialog. What if it was qualified with a thought bubble indicating Black Widow's intent to use the taunt to throw the goons off their game and how stupid they were for falling for it? Or if she got in a last little dig after the battle, turning the sexist comment on its head again and letting them know in no uncertain terms how foolish their narrow world view was? Would the line in question still be unbearably sexist?
eris-wtga wrote: Thugpatrol wrote: Your objection is to the use of this kind of language anywhere, and that's admirable. If your crusade is to have society change its acceptance of it I wish you the best of luck. But that doesn't change the fact that this language is used in the real world by real people, and it is reasonable for this fictional character to use it as a weapon in this context. You call it subversive sexism, I call it believable dialog. What if it was qualified with a thought bubble indicating Black Widow's intent to use the taunt to throw the goons off their game and how stupid they were for falling for it? Or if she got in a last little dig after the battle, turning the sexist comment on its head again and letting them know in no uncertain terms how foolish their narrow world view was? Would the line in question still be unbearably sexist? I wouldn't say unbearable, annoying & frustrating sure, but it's something I have to deal with daily. And it is both sexist & believable. Because it does happen everyday, but doesn't change the fact it is sexist. It doesn't matter about the fictional goons "think", the problem is that it reeforces that idea in the minds of the readers.
Thugpatrol wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but now you're getting into something much closer to censorship. You don't think this language should appear because it offends your sensibilities and your world view. Because it is "bad" language. But this is a work of fiction provided for entertainment purposes. When, as a writer, you begin to concern yourself with whether everything you write may possibly offend some group and attempt to cater to every flavor of political correctness you end up with very stale dialog that no actual person would use. You don't like the writers' choice of taunt, but forgotten in this is the scene in question features a very strong, confident woman putting a beatdown on a bunch of burly men and making them look both foolish and impotent. That's hardly reinforcing sexist ideals that women are weak and powerless. There is context to everything. You have acknowledging that some amount of extra content would have improved the situation at least to some degree in your view, and that is precisely what I'm talking about. I found the context in which the language appeared acceptable based on my understanding of the character and the situation. You did not. More context may have caused you to be less offended and see the scene as less negative. Nothing exists in a vacuum. You can't just pull a few words out of a scene and address them as a singular entity. How they are delivered, by who, to whom, in what situation is just as important.
eris-wtga wrote: Again, context doesn't change the fact it is a sexist comment. Women use female stereotypes to their advantage all the time (&yes it drives me nuts), that doesn't make it any less sexist. And it doesn't offend my sensibility, it makes my (and all women's) life more difficult. Not specifically this one instance, but the larger thought patter that gets feed by it. And I work retail, I have to self censor all the time. And have never said "this needs to be changed asap" I commented on this because I agree it is sexist, to highlight this because people may no realize the sexist nature of the comment and I like a good debate
Thugpatrol wrote: Are we having a debate? I'm not sure we are. I've tried repeatedly to make points using examples. You haven't really bothered to address any of them. Your responses all boil down to variations of "This line is sexist. Sexism is bad. Context is irrelevant." What you have is a position, an extremely simple and rigid one at that, but you haven't made any point beyond one half mention of reinforcing negative stereotypes in the minds of readers. Likewise your denial of any kind of merit to context borders on intentionally obtuse. You're not engaging in debate, you've built a brick wall and you're hiding behind it. What do you want? What is the recourse here that would satisfy you? Let's say the writers picked a different insult. That insult, by its very nature, would likely be at its core offensive to some subgroup of the player population, or it would be a really lame insult. They happened to pick your hot button issue and it's set you off. Would you be crusading as hard if she had made a fat joke instead? Would you be sympathetic to the people who were offended if you weren't? They could remove the section entirely, but now you've robbed the character of utilizing some of her defining characteristics, her mind and her wit, something that makes her interesting in a world of super powered brutes that smash first and ask questions never. There are always going to be these grey areas when you're writing fiction. You cannot please everyone all the time and you cannot sanitize your work so completely lest it becomes so dry and boring that nobody will want anything to do with it. So please, enlighten us. What do you want? Step out from your barricade and debate if you want to debate. I enjoy a good debate as well, but right now you haven't put much out there.