Patch R58 Discussion - Live 7/29

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  • Moral
    Moral Posts: 512
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    IceIX wrote:
    For negative effects to moves (self damage on sunder/headbutt or self stun from recharge), who takes that effect?
    For the most part, those sorts of abilities aren't Team-Up applicable. Doesn't make much sense for Sentry to Sacrifice himself when that Sacrifice means nothing.


    In other words, no Jugs Headbutts folks.

    Devour will still bite.
  • Moral
    Moral Posts: 512
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    IceIX wrote:
    Thanos wrote:
    Ice, curious, from inception to implementation, how much development time was put into the team up feature?

    Also....whens the x-force buff coming? hmm, hmm, hmm...... icon_question.gif

    Whats the plan for Fury?

    Why's the season 4 alliance reward IW and not a new character?
    - Buff schedule: After Hawkeye and Magneto.
    - Current plan is to add Fury into the mix like Invisible Woman and Wolverine (X-Force) are, but not quite yet.
    - Because we want to see how effective having an "Exclusive" Alliance reward pushes Alliances in a season versus a more normal reward.


    For resume_duel
  • Unknown
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    Why the epic nerf to mstorm and mostorm? No matter how you slice it, this is yet another nail in the coffin to we 2>3* transition players. How the hell am I supposed to beat incredibly overscaled PvE nodes (which is the norm) when mstorm/thor/obw is now completely unviable?

    Well, considering that I am a transition player myself and I have never once used this combo, I gotta say that it can be done. I dropped all of my 1*s as soon as I was fully in the 2* game. Had I known then what I know now, I might have held on to mStorm a while, but the point is that your 'coffin nail' is less a nail and more a loose thumbtack.
  • Unknown
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    thanks moral.
  • Unknown
    edited July 2014
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    wymtime wrote:
    As far as storm goes they HAD TO add this "nerf" to her is beceuase the Dev's rightfully believe the 1* storm would be too OP for the team ups. With the 1* storm you hit 2 reds and get Rage of the Panther, or Sniper Rifle, or Call of the Storm, or any other ability that you get. She might not pair great with Thor now but she pairs better with Wolvie 2&3*, GSBW, Hulk, both Magneto's, Psylocke and can still be very usefull if you bring a big team up with you. With the team up even on a 3* team she can be even better. If you get a strong nuke as a team up and it is easier to get 9 yellow then all the team up ap needed you activate her yellow and get 7 additional AP for team up plus solid damage and possible cascades. Now you can fire your nuke to finish people off. If she was able to destroy all the team up tiles she could be devistating. She can always be nuged to destroy a couple extra team ups like 9 for 3* I think would be fair, but might be OP based on the team up AP cost.

    Couldn't they just as easily have added a modifier "Destroys all TU tiles. For every 4 TU tiles destroyed gains 1 TU ap"? She'd retain her utility and "damage" (still a far cry from the damage of comparable 3* single-target abilities,) and might actually be useful...

    As it stands, she has remarkably low hp, and no low ap skills (9 ap is not low), so having her be the sole yellow, green and/or black user means she is tanking at least 3 times unless you luck out with a match 4/5.
  • Unknown
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    Well, considering that I am a transition player myself and I have never once used this combo, I gotta say that it can be done. I dropped all of my 1*s as soon as I was fully in the 2* game. Had I known then what I know now, I might have held on to mStorm a while, but the point is that your 'coffin nail' is less a nail and more a loose thumbtack.

    Fair enough. How did you combat the extreme scaling of the Unstable Iso-8 event? I would have been relegated to 100+ rank without thor/obw/mstorm. Since I couldn't survive more than maybe 5 matches from enemy characters, I had only the goon nodes to grind points from. It took a good 15-20 minutes per run with them nearing lv300, but I managed a respectable score. Could not have done so without that combo.
  • orionpeace
    orionpeace Posts: 343 Mover and Shaker
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    Fair enough. How did you combat the extreme scaling of the Unstable Iso-8 event? I would have been relegated to 100+ rank without thor/obw/mstorm. Since I couldn't survive more than maybe 5 matches from enemy characters, I had only the goon nodes to grind points from. It took a good 15-20 minutes per run with them nearing lv300, but I managed a respectable score. Could not have done so without that combo.

    I, too, am making that transition from 2*>3* and I didn't use mStorm in the Iso-8 event.

    Instead, I used MMN and cStorm to great effect. I was able to hang in the top 20 and get all 3 Capt. Marvel covers. Granted, I did boost Blue/Purple often.

    By the end of the event I had nodes over Level 300 and over 200 for most of it.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
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    wymtime wrote:
    As far as storm goes they HAD TO add this "nerf" to her is beceuase the Dev's rightfully believe the 1* storm would be too OP for the team ups. With the 1* storm you hit 2 reds and get Rage of the Panther, or Sniper Rifle, or Call of the Storm, or any other ability that you get. She might not pair great with Thor now but she pairs better with Wolvie 2&3*, GSBW, Hulk, both Magneto's, Psylocke and can still be very usefull if you bring a big team up with you. With the team up even on a 3* team she can be even better. If you get a strong nuke as a team up and it is easier to get 9 yellow then all the team up ap needed you activate her yellow and get 7 additional AP for team up plus solid damage and possible cascades. Now you can fire your nuke to finish people off. If she was able to destroy all the team up tiles she could be devistating. She can always be nuged to destroy a couple extra team ups like 9 for 3* I think would be fair, but might be OP based on the team up AP cost.

    Couldn't they just as easily have added a modifier "Destroys all TU tiles. For every 4 TU tiles destroyed gains 1 TU ap"? She'd retain her utility and "damage" (still a far cry from the damage of comparable 3* single-target abilities,) and might actually be useful...

    As it stands, she has remarkably low hp, and no low ap skills (9 ap is not low), so having her be the sole yellow, green and/or black user means she is tanking at least 3 times unless you luck out with a match 4/5.

    I think they want 1 AP to be 1 AP. I think they could have bumped up her tiles destroyed and damage done. My belief is they would rather under power her and buff her later than over power her and nerf her later. I think it all depends on how powerfull the team up power is and how much it costs to see if this is a balance or are true nerf. In reality her 3* is mainly a trophy for me more so than someone I would use as a main support character, and the 1* storm I used in BOP and occasionally in PVE when buffed. Maybe 1* will use Juggs more now?
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
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    avs962 wrote:
    wymtime wrote:
    After reading every single comment in this thread, I had to chime in.

    Why the epic nerf to mstorm and mostorm? No matter how you slice it, this is yet another nail in the coffin to we 2>3* transition players. How the hell am I supposed to beat incredibly overscaled PvE nodes (which is the norm) when mstorm/thor/obw is now completely unviable? Also, maybe someone could explain to the devs that both Storm's red skills are for utility (not damage, which they mistakenly believe), so Mostorm being released pre-nerfed was unnerving, but on par with She-Hulk being pre-nerfed. Why would I use Mostorm instead of any other yellow utilizer (BP, LT, Sentry, etc.)?

    I'd really like some perspective here, because I can't understand why they want Storm to be another Daredevil/Bagman. 1 and 3* Storm have extremely low relative health and their raw damage output is negligible at best. People use her for her utility, which you're now removing almost entirely. MotE will now use yellow, instead of the much preferred red, so she can't pair with Thor anymore, a matchup that had abyssmal damage, but tons of utility. Now they'd fight over who uses yellow, and only Thor can use red making it unviable (since his red is already pretty bad unless you get a lot of luck.) My understanding was that squishies compensated with damage and/or utility. And to accomplish that, tended toward low cost skills. Apparently Storm is supposed to fit into the niche group currently held by bagman, Moonstone and DD, extremely situational usage. Most times it's far better to go with a generally useful character anyway instead of someone situational with overpriced skills.

    Can we stop with the gamebreaking nerfs for a couple months, please, or is that asking way too much?! The fun was already sucked out of the game with True Healing...

    I saw several posts from other disgruntled Storm users, but nowhere near the amount that should be up-in-arms. Speak the tinykitty up!

    As far as storm goes they HAD TO add this "nerf" to her is beceuase the Dev's rightfully believe the 1* storm would be too OP for the team ups. With the 1* storm you hit 2 reds and get Rage of the Panther, or Sniper Rifle, or Call of the Storm, or any other ability that you get. She might not pair great with Thor now but she pairs better with Wolvie 2&3*, GSBW, Hulk, CBoth Magneto's, Psyloke and can still be very usefull if you bring a big team up with you. With the team up even on a 3* team she can be even better. If you get a strong nuke as a team up and it is easier to get 9 yellow then all the team up ap needed you activate her yellow and get 7 additional AP for team up plus solid damage and possible cascades. Now you can fire your nuke to finish people off. If she was able to destroy all the team up tiles she could be devistating. She can always be nuged to destroy a couple extra team ups like 9 for 3* I think would be fair, but might be OP based on the team up AP cost.


    I have to agree with you here. Destroying all team-up tiles would be a ridiculous power that would be way too useful. I don't know much about the ability costs, but I feel like seven tiles destroyed will still be a useful utility effect. Add that to the increase in damage (I know, "no one uses it for damage", but it's there and it's an upgrade, so you'll have to take notice) from both the ability and the tiles (at least I'm assuming the total damage will be higher, IceIX said the team-ups will be like the fourth tile strength)

    All in all, I think any "nerf" is minor at worst.

    The same way Juggernaut destroys 16 tiles but does not generate any AP, so could Storm destroy all the TU tiles but generate a fixed number, depending on the level of the ability. There, still would have the same cascade potential as before and no broken TU AP generation. Damage dealt is really least important in that case.
  • Unknown
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    Are they wanting us to start calling Mostorm "Windbag"? In keeping with the theme of Bagman, Baglady, Bagdevil, BagRags, etc...
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Think about it this way 1* storm for 5 AP does 366 damage and generates 6 AP. That would be enough for a Headbutt, or 1 match away from berserker rage? If can actually lead to a lot of damage in the 1* range.

    On the 3 * storm you do 1500 damage and 7 AP for 9 AP. This is much better Damage, not the best in the game by far, but with the 7 AP you get your nuke so add 1500 damage to whatever nuke you brought to the table and it "can be" a big power. Her weakness is still her low health and is she competing for better powers. There are few active yellows so this makes her play better with more characters. I think people will be playing her specificly for her yellow to be able to get off her team up power. Also if you have a really high level featured character like Patch why not bring a Nuke+ for 9 potentially 9 yellow. She is not A-Team character, but she is now a more viable 3* support character than previously done if you are using the team up.

    On another note I think the team up will be used more often on Defense than on Offense to start since the player base is still used to their normal pattern. Defense tends to match ENV tiles more so you will never know what might be lurking with a Defensive team. Spidy-Falcon-loaner character fires off Call of the Storm icon_e_surprised.gif
  • Unknown
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    Fair enough. How did you combat the extreme scaling of the Unstable Iso-8 event?

    To be perfectly frank, I didn't. I fell just outside of the top 100 there and missed the juicy prize. icon_cry.gif

    But I blame that more on my bracket than my scaling. The last few hours were a brutal rush - I'd win a node and still drop 10 places because everybody else was winning them faster or rubberbanding past me.

    With a deep roster you have lots of teams to call upon and even a few sub-optimal alternates should one member of a team go down but the others are able to carry on. Diversity is the key to overcoming the recent changes. A nerf to any character on your roster should just result in a reshuffling of teams. For instance, you say that Storm no longer goes well with Thor (and I don't disagree), but now she works better with Lazy Cap, Punisher, Wolverine, etc. Are those lineups as efficient as she was with Thor? No, probably not but if nothing else you need someone to sweep up the low point nodes while you're waiting for health packs to replinish.
  • Unknown
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    Kolence wrote:
    avs962 wrote:
    I have to agree with you here. Destroying all team-up tiles would be a ridiculous power that would be way too useful. I don't know much about the ability costs, but I feel like seven tiles destroyed will still be a useful utility effect. Add that to the increase in damage (I know, "no one uses it for damage", but it's there and it's an upgrade, so you'll have to take notice) from both the ability and the tiles (at least I'm assuming the total damage will be higher, IceIX said the team-ups will be like the fourth tile strength)

    All in all, I think any "nerf" is minor at worst.

    The same way Juggernaut destroys 16 tiles but does not generate any AP, so could Storm destroy all the TU tiles but generate a fixed number, depending on the level of the ability. There, still would have the same cascade potential as before and no broken TU AP generation. Damage dealt is really least important in that case.
    One of the limitations of MotE is that when you have cleared out all of the environmental already, you cannot simply make more by casting it again. Maybe it could destroy all but only gain 1 per tile destroyed, up to x per level. All the destruction, part of the gain, no spam for infinite TUAP
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,313 Site Admin
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    daibar wrote:
    LakeStone wrote:
    New
    Mistress of the Elements - Yellow 9 AP
    Clouds darken the battlefield and lightning streaks across the sky as Storm's awesome power inspires her teammates and assaults her foes. Destroys up to 5 Team-Up tiles, generating Team-Up AP and dealing 4 damage per tile.
    Level Upgrades
    Level 2: Deals 4 damage for each tile shattered
    Level 3: Deals 5 damage for each tile shattered
    Level 4: Deals 5 damage for each tile shattered
    Level 5: Destroys 6 Team-Up tiles
    Max Level: 61 damage for each Team-Up tile

    Level 3 and 4 appear to be exactly the same.
    At base level, yes, it appears that way. It's a 15% increase each time, so it goes from 4->4.6->5.29
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,313 Site Admin
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    DayvBang wrote:
    Has any thought been given to notifying players when they reach maximum inventory of a boost or team-up, so players know to use some up before they waste new ones?
    No to Boosts getting one soon, but you do get a notification on max Team-Ups when you would otherwise get another.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,313 Site Admin
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    Pylgrim wrote:
    It seems Ice is away but if he comes back...

    If we get the TU ability only after we beat the character that has that ability, does that mean that there are TU we may never see? One of my favorite heros to use is DareDevil, ( yes, DareDevil, even a pawn can become a Queen if you use it right ), yet because so few people actually understand How to use him they just don't like him. So, because no one ever uses DD, I never see him in the game. Does this mean that I will never get DD team ups?
    Or will there be a way to get specific ones?
    In R58, not really. Unless you encounter them, it'll be rough to get them. We've got plans already made to expand the Team-Up system in the future though, so this won't always be the case.
  • Unknown
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    Ooh, IceIX is here again!

    Any estimate on when the next covers get added to the packs? She-Hulk, Baby Torch, Captain Marvel?
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,313 Site Admin
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    Enoc99 wrote:
    I have an additional question on this. Is the damage that Storm is doing when destroying the Team-Up tiles additional to the damage that the tiles are doing themselves when destroyed?
    Sort of. Yes, she does, but it's counted into the damage displayed by the tooltip. So it's not going to do *additional* damage on top of what's displayed, but it is dealing that destruction damage as a part of it. A Level 166 Storm (Mohawk) will hit for 1540 damage, of which 287 (41*7) of that comes directly from the exploded tiles. These tiles are treated as a single point of destruction for purposes of Strike tile increases. So 2 tiles at 220 each and a 105 strength Strike tile would result in a 545 damage attack.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,313 Site Admin
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    I have a question for iceIX. Will you be introducing fury covers for rewards at any point in the (near)future? If this question has been answered anywhere can someone direct me to it.
    Hasn't been answered, no. But yes, plan is to be introducing Fury to packs in the future. I'm not sure on the exact timing yet. Less Valve Time(TM) than Magneto (Classic)'s changes for sure.
  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,313 Site Admin
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    Are they wanting us to start calling Mostorm "Windbag"? In keeping with the theme of Bagman, Baglady, Bagdevil, BagRags, etc...
    And yet again, poor Bagspy is forgotten about...