*** The Punisher (Dark Reign) ***

Unknown

mags1587 wrote:

kalirion wrote:

What's the difference between 3 Black and 4 Black at Max level?

I have a 4/4/5 Punisher that I'm thinking of respec'ing to 3/5/5 next time I get a Green cover.

My max Punisher at 3 Black is: 783 team damage, 3 turn countdown tile that creates a 65 damage attack tile. Believe the only difference is that the attack tile strength goes from 65 to 78 from 3-4.

Cool down goes down to 2 instead of 3.

Kolence

ark123 wrote:

mags1587 wrote:

kalirion wrote:

What's the difference between 3 Black and 4 Black at Max level?

I have a 4/4/5 Punisher that I'm thinking of respec'ing to 3/5/5 next time I get a Green cover.

My max Punisher at 3 Black is: 783 team damage, 3 turn countdown tile that creates a 65 damage attack tile. Believe the only difference is that the attack tile strength goes from 65 to 78 from 3-4.

Cool down goes down to 2 instead of 3.

Cool down goes down at level 5 not at level 4.

ErikPeter

Just chiming in to say, I'm not surprised people think Punisher needs a buff, because 2/3 of people think his best build is 3/5/5. 5 red sounds so good but 3 works just fine.

Arondite

ErikPeter wrote:

Just chiming in to say, I'm not surprised people think Punisher needs a buff, because 2/3 of people think his best build is 3/5/5. 5 red sounds so good but 3 works just fine.

Erhm... It is his best build. I'd rather take a sure kill 10% sooner and a higher base damage if not than spitting out 78 point attack tiles 33% faster IF the CD tile survives.

Vhailorx

ErikPeter wrote:

Just chiming in to say, I'm not surprised people think Punisher needs a buff, because 2/3 of people think his best build is 3/5/5. 5 red sounds so good but 3 works just fine.

5 black is fine, but as far as I can tell the only remaining reason to run punisher is to drop massively scaled opponents. That is the only thing punisher does that someone rise can't do better. So for that purpose, 30% to 40% health is huge. What is 10% health on a level 395 hulk or 4* Thor?

Unknown

Punisher is one of those characters that has 3 good abilities, but no marquee or game changing ability.

That's why he fell out of the top 10.

In a game with Xforce, 4hor, Thor, Black Panther, pre-nerf Sentry, Fury and Deadpool, it's hard to get excited about his abilities. Low AoE with a low attack tiles on a low chance to get it proc'd countdown tiles, some decent strike tiles in a world with Daken, and an execute ability for one character...

He is spammable, and can be annoying. But he won't see the competitive scene until he gets a marquee ability, like all the other top tier characters.

Psylocke is the same.

Without a "if this ability is pulled off, you're ****" ability as a defensive player, he really holds little to no value.

Unknown

Vhailorx wrote:

ErikPeter wrote:

Just chiming in to say, I'm not surprised people think Punisher needs a buff, because 2/3 of people think his best build is 3/5/5. 5 red sounds so good but 3 works just fine.

5 black is fine, but as far as I can tell the only remaining reason to run punisher is to drop massively scaled opponents. That is the only thing punisher does that someone rise can't do better. So for that purpose, 30% to 40% health is huge. What is 10% health on a level 395 hulk or 4* Thor?

I'd much rather have a stunner if a giant health pool is the issue.

He doesn't do anything too well. He tries to fire off some ok sized strike tiles and follow it up with a black AoE, but this is exactly what BP does, except BP has more health and his AoE does insane amounts of damage. Red is cute and all but honestly it's not worth crippling yourself the entire fight just to off a character from 40% assuming this punisher is even alive at that point.

Vhailorx

ark123 wrote:

I'd much rather have a stunner if a giant health pool is the issue.

He doesn't do anything too well. He tries to fire off some ok sized strike tiles and follow it up with a black AoE, but this is exactly what BP does, except BP has more health and his AoE does insane amounts of damage. Red is cute and all but honestly it's not worth crippling yourself the entire fight just to off a character from 40% assuming this punisher is even alive at that point.

In general I don't disagree with you. Punisher has basically been surpassed by other 3*s (especially BP). And stunning is a solid technique huge tanks. But sometimes your best stunner is in the opposing pve team and you can't use them. And some times you are in a heroic event with restricted roster. or sometimes you A and B teams are both too hurt to fight and you don't have health packs but you really want to clear one more level.

In those circumstances punisher's red is a nice cookie that no other character can quite duplicate. I'm not suggesting it's a great ability, just that it is HIS most useful and unique ability, and should therefore be maxed before his mediocre black skill (which takes too long even at level 5). As far as I can tell, the only real use for his black power is to be used after something like berserker rage to spam strike-tile-enhanced aoe damage, and for that purpose 3 covers works as well as 5.

Unknown

Black Panther is only significantly better than Punisher (and most 3*) when Battleplan roughly tripled in power after one of the balance passes. Originally Rage of the Panther did about 33% more damage than it currently does too. Black Panther seems to be someone who is never meant to be balanced and still is not so I don't think you should hold other people to his level. Besides Black Panther, who amongst 3* is obviously better than him? Thor I guess but Thor is also way too good (too much HP while still doing top tier damage). Daken and Patch are better than him due to true healing but true healing pretty much beats anything in this game. Some characters could be better than him depending on the board state and whatnot, but The Punisher is always pretty reliable as none of his abilities is really dependent on anything else even though they do combo quite nicely so his potential should be lower than people who do depend on certain board state (e.g. Blade) or abilities fired in certain order (e.g. Mystique).

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Black Panther is only significantly better than Punisher (and most 3*) when Battleplan roughly tripled in power after one of the balance passes. Originally Rage of the Panther did about 33% more damage than it currently does too. Black Panther seems to be someone who is never meant to be balanced and still is not so I don't think you should hold other people to his level. Besides Black Panther, who amongst 3* is obviously better than him? Thor I guess but Thor is also way too good (too much HP while still doing top tier damage). Daken and Patch are better than him due to true healing but true healing pretty much beats anything in this game. Some characters could be better than him depending on the board state and whatnot, but The Punisher is always pretty reliable as none of his abilities is really dependent on anything else even though they do combo quite nicely so his potential should be lower than people who do depend on certain board state (e.g. Blade) or abilities fired in certain order (e.g. Mystique).

mystique, blade, luke cage, grocket...actually it's easier to name the 3*s that are worse than punisher. He's currently ranked 18th in the ranking thread, but I'd say with confidence that he belongs more around 26th or 27th. I'd bring the reworked Daredevil in before I reached for him, but I'd take him over gamora. I'd easily pick any of these over him:

19. 3* Falcon
20. 3* Mystique
21. 3* Black Widow (grey suit)
22. 3* Rocket and Groot
23. 3* Loki
24. 3* Colossus
25. 3* Psylocke

Not in every team - I'd avoid Falcon in a team with no strike tiles for instance. But yeah.

NorthernPolarity

ark123 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Black Panther is only significantly better than Punisher (and most 3*) when Battleplan roughly tripled in power after one of the balance passes. Originally Rage of the Panther did about 33% more damage than it currently does too. Black Panther seems to be someone who is never meant to be balanced and still is not so I don't think you should hold other people to his level. Besides Black Panther, who amongst 3* is obviously better than him? Thor I guess but Thor is also way too good (too much HP while still doing top tier damage). Daken and Patch are better than him due to true healing but true healing pretty much beats anything in this game. Some characters could be better than him depending on the board state and whatnot, but The Punisher is always pretty reliable as none of his abilities is really dependent on anything else even though they do combo quite nicely so his potential should be lower than people who do depend on certain board state (e.g. Blade) or abilities fired in certain order (e.g. Mystique).

mystique, blade, luke cage, grocket...actually it's easier to name the 3*s that are worse than punisher. He's currently ranked 18th in the ranking thread, but I'd say with confidence that he belongs more around 26th or 27th. I'd bring the reworked Daredevil in before I reached for him, but I'd take him over gamora. I'd easily pick any of these over him:

19. 3* Falcon
20. 3* Mystique
21. 3* Black Widow (grey suit)
22. 3* Rocket and Groot
23. 3* Loki
24. 3* Colossus
25. 3* Psylocke

Not in every team - I'd avoid Falcon in a team with no strike tiles for instance. But yeah.

I was thinking about the question that phantron asked, and its interesting because i couldnt come up with many better standalone characters than punisher. For instance, if there was a hypothetical 1v1 format, most of the characters you mentioned are just straight up worse than punisher.

The real problem with punisher is hes just a versatile, mid-tier dps. But with so many characters out, there isnt any room for that anymore since characters are moving towards more specialized roles. You're also hyper exaggerating when you say "easily" pick those characters over pun. Punisher is obviously better than psylocke, colossus, falcon, and gsbw for pvp: it isnt even close. Its just that since we have our xors to stomp pvp there isnt any room for punisher, so wed rather have the pve specialist in gsbw, or a terrible for anything but seed killing psylocke.

Phaserhawk

Yeah, since I don't see any characters getting super nerfed, it might be easier to buff Punisher. Basically his black needs to do more than current iteration, If it created an attack tile plus the CD tile would be a big step, but the biggest upgrade this needs is those attack tiles need to do ALOT more damage, in addition I would have red do a little more initial damage as well, that way you could use it isntead of having to wait for the 30 or 40 threshold.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Yeah, since I don't see any characters getting super nerfed, it might be easier to buff Punisher. Basically his black needs to do more than current iteration, If it created an attack tile plus the CD tile would be a big step, but the biggest upgrade this needs is those attack tiles need to do ALOT more damage, in addition I would have red do a little more initial damage as well, that way you could use it isntead of having to wait for the 30 or 40 threshold.

I'd say Molotov needs to create at least one attack tile per turn - 2 attack tiles a turn at 5 covers. And green should be targeted, not random.

hesjingixen

ark123 wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Yeah, since I don't see any characters getting super nerfed, it might be easier to buff Punisher. Basically his black needs to do more than current iteration, If it created an attack tile plus the CD tile would be a big step, but the biggest upgrade this needs is those attack tiles need to do ALOT more damage, in addition I would have red do a little more initial damage as well, that way you could use it isntead of having to wait for the 30 or 40 threshold.

I'd say Molotov needs to create at least one attack tile per turn - 2 attack tiles a turn at 5 covers. And green should be targeted, not random.

I've been pondering him lately as he's featured in the current Gauntlet. I have to say, both of these changes would make him much more viable. In particular, I'd really like to see the targetable green, because 9 times out of 10, when you use his green, 1 (or more) of 4 things happen:
1) The computer picks some stupid place on the corner or edge of the screen, so you get reduced damage (and the damage is bad already)
2) You destroy 1 or more of the strike tiles from the last time you used it
3) You destroy the countdown timer for Molotov
4) You destroy 1 or more of the attack tiles painstakingly created by Molotov

Thus, if you made the green targetable, not only could you avoid all these problems, but it would give him a good place in PvE, because you could use it to destroy minion countdown tiles.

dkffiv

Punisher was my second maxed character and is still one of my favorites. His usage has dropped quite a bit b/c his colors are very similar to Xforce's but in LR I'm more likely to skip teams with him.

If he needed any buffs I would consider raising his HP to 8500 and maybe increasing red's base damage slightly. I think his black and green are fine, the key is to not use black until at least one of his greens goes off (which causes the damage to be approximately in line with RotP, just that you have the potential to cast it faster). Hell you can pair Black Panther and Punisher and all you need is a purple user (OBW does extremely well with Punisher's strike tiles). If you can get green + yellow off Punisher's black might actually be more favorable to use if you're afraid of giving the enemy AP.

If Wolverine is locked out he's one of the best green outlets, his black combos well with it and his red isn't terrible.

Arondite

dkffiv wrote:

Punisher was my second maxed character and is still one of my favorites. His usage has dropped quite a bit b/c his colors are very similar to Xforce's but in LR I'm more likely to skip teams with him.

If he needed any buffs I would consider raising his HP to 8500 and maybe increasing red's base damage slightly. I think his black and green are fine, the key is to not use black until at least one of his greens goes off (which causes the damage to be approximately in line with RotP, just that you have the potential to cast it faster). Hell you can pair Black Panther and Punisher and all you need is a purple user (OBW does extremely well with Punisher's strike tiles). If you can get green + yellow off Punisher's black might actually be more favorable to use if you're afraid of giving the enemy AP.

If Wolverine is locked out he's one of the best green outlets, his black combos well with it and his red isn't terrible.

(783+366) x 3 = 3,708 x 3?

atomzed

It surprises me to see people calling for a buff to punisher.

Pun has been a solid top 10 from season 1 to season 6 iirc. For a period of time, he was seen as the model of balanced character.

But with the release of New characters and balancing, he has been predictably fallen behind the curve.

If we start to buff punisher, then eventually we would have to buff other characters that are fallen behind (Much like how punisher is at the current state).

Won't this lead to power creep?

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

If we start to buff punisher, then eventually we would have to buff other characters that are fallen behind (Much like how punisher is at the current state).

Won't this lead to power creep?

Power creep is reason he needs buff, not the other way around...

Arondite

atomzed wrote:

It surprises me to see people calling for a buff to punisher.

Pun has been a solid top 10 from season 1 to season 6 iirc. For a period of time, he was seen as the model of balanced character.

But with the release of New characters and balancing, he has been predictably fallen behind the curve.

If we start to buff punisher, then eventually we would have to buff other characters that are fallen behind (Much like how punisher is at the current state).

Won't this lead to power creep?

You say "lead to" as if it isn't in full effect

atomzed

raziel777 wrote:

atomzed wrote:

If we start to buff punisher, then eventually we would have to buff other characters that are fallen behind (Much like how punisher is at the current state).

Won't this lead to power creep?

Power creep is reason he needs buff, not the other way around...

And you are asking him to be buffed, to feed into the power creep, so that other characters will need to be buff more? That doesn't make sense to me...

Arondite wrote:

atomzed wrote:

It surprises me to see people calling for a buff to punisher.

Pun has been a solid top 10 from season 1 to season 6 iirc. For a period of time, he was seen as the model of balanced character.

But with the release of New characters and balancing, he has been predictably fallen behind the curve.

If we start to buff punisher, then eventually we would have to buff other characters that are fallen behind (Much like how punisher is at the current state).

Won't this lead to power creep?

You say "lead to" as if it isn't in full effect

Really? Do you think there's a power creep?

Cos besides GT, none of the new characters are really THAT good that it render all old characters to be useless.

Hmm, this is an interesting enough topic. I probably should post a new topic.