*** The Punisher (Dark Reign) ***

Unknown

I'm thinking that 5 red is pretty much the way to go now, since the level buff puts a number of characters above 10k HP.

Unknown

Hi, Punisher fans

I have a question and i need some help with this character...

I have Punisher full (yeah ), and my build is actually 5/4/4...

I just received a wonderful gift ...a green cover...i've heard that i really need to boost my green covers...My question is simple...Is green full absolutly necessery, and in that case, what is better ?

4/5/4 or 5/5/3 ? I guess i use black and red quite often.

Thank you very much if you can help me...

Unknown

Darek wrote:

Hi, Punisher fans

I have a question and i need some help with this character...

I have Punisher full (yeah ), and my build is actually 5/4/4...

I just received a wonderful gift ...a green cover...i've heard that i really need to boost my green covers...My question is simple...Is green full absolutly necessery, and in that case, what is better ?

4/5/4 or 5/5/3 ? I guess i use black and red quite often.

Thank you very much if you can help me...

All three of his powers get a pretty big upgrade going from 4->5 covers, so leaving two of them at 4 is a waste. And getting three of Punisher's really powerful strike tiles from his green makes it his best move, so almost everyone brings his green to 5. So that leaves 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 as the preferred builds, depending on your preference

Unknown

Then in my case, it is better for me to do a 5/5/3 instead of a 4/5/4, i guess, is that it ?

What does a red 3 difference from a 4 ? Because the first page is not correct i think.

Bye the way, where can i find the 3 powers at each level, exactly like the first page but correct ?

HairyDave

Darek wrote:

Then in my case, it is better for me to do a 5/5/3 instead of a 4/5/4, i guess, is that it ?

What does a red 3 difference from a 4 ? Because the first page is not correct i think.

Bye the way, where can i find the 3 powers at each level, exactly like the first page but correct ?

It's close enough.

The difference between 3 and 4 is a bit of extra damage - which is nice but hardly the reason to use Retribution.

vudu3

Darek wrote:

Then in my case, it is better for me to do a 5/5/3 instead of a 4/5/4, i guess, is that it ?

You're not going to want to go with 4/5/4 for an extended period of time. You need to decide between 5 in red or 5 in black. If you choose 5 in red then you're going to want to go 4/5/4 for now and then respec to 3/5/5 when you get another red cover.

As a previous poster mentioned, I think 5 in red is the way to go now with the recent level increase--more and more characters have 10,000+ health and the boost you get from 5 red-instant down at 40% instead of 30%--means an extra 10,000 damage in certain cases. It's also great against level 200+ Juggs in PVE. That said, I can certainly see an argument for 5 in black, especially if you pair Punisher with a better red user. A Punisher with 5 black may be more opposing on PVP defense because it means the attacker could need to use several health packs if the board isn't friendly.

Unknown

Thanks for your advices

As i have randomly my covers, I think 5/5/3 will be best for me. I guess it wouldn't be a good idea to play 4/5/4, waiting for a red cover. Even if what you say with red covers, to kill if under 40% is a good advice.

Phaserhawk

Here's a repaste of my prior post

By the way and why I really beleive it's a wash between 3/5/5 and 5/5/3.

Lets say you want to take on Thor, that's 8700 hit points. Lets assume you keep all strike tiles out and no Molotov tiles get destroyed.

Well 3/5/5 will be able to take down Thor 870 points sooner than 5/5/3.

3 Green Matches to get AP = 540 minimum tile dmg

3 Black Matches to get AP = 603 miminum tile dmg

3 Red Matches to get AP = 468 minim tile dmg

So you have done 1611 dmg to Thor he's at 7089. You fire Judgement and lets say you get a tile match you just did 400 he's now at 6689. You cast Molotov 668 + 304 = 972 Thor's at 5717

After 6 turns since Molotov 3/5/5 would have 2 Attack tiles out and with Strike tiles would have done 1686 in dmg, 5/5/3 would have 3 attack tiles out and would have done 2537 dmg.

At this point 3/5/5 would have Thor down to 4031 and 5/5/3 would have Thor down to 3180

3/5/5 needs 551 more damage to use retribution and 5/5/3 needs 570 to use retribution

However, during those 6 turns we would have matched tiles and if we had strike tiles out it would have been at least 350 per match to be safe. and guess what, they would both be able to down Thor at the start of turn 5 after casting Molotov.

As you can see it's a wash, If all damage stays on the board you can kill Thor or any other guy on about the same turn no matter if you build 3/5/5 or 5/5/3. 3/5/5 prefers to rely on solid damage and a high % red to finish their target, and 5/5/3 chooses to wittle down the opponent with attack and strike tiles. With Falcon being a static value and not a % it will not have any difference on either Punisher now. 5/5/3 if you combo your team correctly can do much more damage than 3/5/5 especially with a Daken or Patch you can really get those attack tiles moving, but...you have to keep those attack tiles out, if you are unable to do so then you start to lose damage compared to 3/5/5. Which goes to my early statement 5/5/3 has higher highs in dmg but it also has lower lows. 3/5/5 cannot do as much dmg as 5/5/3 technically can but it also won't do as little as 5/5/3 either. You always want 5 in green, as for the others pick a preference and stick with it, you are okay, but don't ever do 4/5/4 that will really hurt your dmg output as you get the worst of both. 5/5/3's power comes from the CD timer being 2 and 3/5/5's power comes from the 40% downing, if you run 4/5/4 you lose both of those

Phaserhawk

Now, I had recrunched my numbers at that point. And found one interesting fact. Please be aware these were the pre buff numbers, but they remain relevant. 5/5/3 assuming you could keep your tiles out, was able to down characters from Hood Health Range to Captain America health range slightly faster again assuming you can keep the attack tiles out. From the Captain America health range to the Thor health range they become so close you can't tell. Anything outside of Thor health range and the 3/5/5 build begins to take characters down faster. This also confirms what everyone has said. In PvE where you have a 14K Juggnaut, 3/5/5 is better. So here's the break down.

3/5/5 better for
==============
Sentry
She-Hulk
Hulk
Thor

Pretty Much even guys
====================
Black Panther
Captain America
Iron Man 40
Ragnarok

5/5/3 better for the rest

Now this does assume that you are able to keep attack tiles and strike tiles out. If you are unable to do so, then the scale favors 3/5/5 because that build relies less on those than 5/5/3. Once again 5/5/3 is a higher risk/higher reward build. You can do more theoretical damage with 5/5/3 than any other build, PERIOD. 3/5/5 is the more consistent build, you use black as an AoE not as a DoT

5/5/3---Quicker for dmg, can take out the lower health guys faster than 3/5/5. Superior against full Goon Teams, better defensive build as AI is terrible with Retribution. Synergies with Daken much better.

3/5/5---More consistent dmg, can take out the big health guys faster than 5/5/3. Superior against fatties. Better offensive build as smart board play comined with max red is lethal. Synergies with Hood very well as Hood's black benefits 3/5/5 Punisher more than 5/5/3.

In short it comes down to keeping the CD timer of Punisher on the board and generating attack tiles. With the rise of L.Daken I'm not as sure as I once was how 3/5/5 is superior long game. Both builds are stellar and have strengths and weaknesses. It really depends on your roster lineup as to the best pairing with Punisher. Everytime I find myself wanting to respec 5/5/3 I find another reason to stay 3/5/5. As long as you stay with either of those two you are fine

over_clocked

I have to match my own Molotovs too often for me to ever want to switch to anything other than 3/5/5.

Spoit

locked wrote:

I have to match my own Molotovs too often for me to ever want to switch to anything other than 3/5/5.

The theory is that they'd at least get an attack or two out that way

Unknown

Thanks...

I decided for a 5/5/3...Because i could wait a long time to have my red cover and 4/5/4 is not a good idea...

3 x 122 attack is quite good...Except when Loki uses his blacks ;p)

over_clocked

Spoit wrote:

locked wrote:

I have to match my own Molotovs too often for me to ever want to switch to anything other than 3/5/5.

The theory is that they'd at least get an attack or two out that way

Yeah, it's not about having the most effective builds, it's about personal tastes and least annoying builds

Phaserhawk

locked wrote:

Spoit wrote:

locked wrote:

I have to match my own Molotovs too often for me to ever want to switch to anything other than 3/5/5.

The theory is that they'd at least get an attack or two out that way

Yeah, it's not about having the most effective builds, it's about personal tastes and least annoying builds

I couldn't agree more. But making sure people have all the information about a build is also a good idea so they can make the most informed choice.

Here are the numbers a 5/5/3 or a 3/5/5 need to really look at.

595
680
1020'
1147

What are those? They are the 10% difference from 3 red to 5 red. Those numbers are what a 5/5/3 build has to determine if they can overcome. Take good old Thor. HP are 10200, meaning you need to get him to 3060 or 4080 depending on your build. So. Can you get 1020 more dmg out of your Molotov cocktail than 3/5/5 before 3/5/5 gets Thor to 4080 hitpoints? Here's a chart. This counts your turn only and documents with no strike tiles, no tile matching, just pure paper numbers.

Turn

---

5/5/3

---

CD

---

3/5/5

---

CD
============================================
1 783

---

2

---

783

---

3
2 783

---

1

---

783

---

2
3 861 (78)

---

2

---

783

---

1
4 939 (78)

---

1

---

848 (65)

---

3
5 1095 (156)

---

2

---

913 (65)

---

2
6 1251 (156)

---

1

---

978 (65)

---

1
7 1485 (234)

---

2

---

1108 (130)---3
8 1719 (234

---

1

---

1238 (130)---2
9 2031 (312)

---

2

---

1368 (130)---1
10 2343 (312)

---

1

---

1563 (195)----3
11 2733 (390)

---

2

---

1758 (195)----2
12 3123 (390)

---

1

---

1953 (195)----1
13 3591 (468)

---

2

---

2213 (260)

---

3
=============================================
The number in the () is the attack tile damage dealt that turn.
As you can see 5/5/3 does a lot more dmg and grows exponentialy faster than 3/5/5, but......can you keep all those tiles out? So taken those numbers, the 595,680, 1020 etc. It would take you until turn 11 of casting Molotov to do more dmg with your black to get you within range to down Thor with your red faster than 3/5/5. To down a 6800 guy quicker by turn 9 you have done 663 more dmg, not 680, so it takes 10 turns. Now you throw in strike tiles and that margin shrinks, but only on turn 3. That's because you get the attack tile out 1 turn faster. After that again, a wash. Say you have 366 worth of strike tiles out that drops everything about 2 turns. Therefore you could take Thor down on turn 9, Magneto on turn 8.

When I really looked at these numbers, I couldn't justify 5/5/3 anymore. 3/5/5 just downs guys faster, and is more reliant. What it made me think though, is that lvl 5 black needs a little bit more of a dmg boost and I think it needs to be just a smidge more on the AoE dmg and a couple more on the attack tiles. 5/5/3 is higher risk therefore I feel it needs a better reward. The saving grace of 5/5/3 is if you have a solid red team member 5/5/3 is a bit better, but straight up 3/5/5 is quicker as a single target take down.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

locked wrote:

Spoit wrote:

locked wrote:

I have to match my own Molotovs too often for me to ever want to switch to anything other than 3/5/5.

The theory is that they'd at least get an attack or two out that way

Yeah, it's not about having the most effective builds, it's about personal tastes and least annoying builds

I couldn't agree more. But making sure people have all the information about a build is also a good idea so they can make the most informed choice.

Here are the numbers a 5/5/3 or a 3/5/5 need to really look at.

595
680
1020'
1147

What are those? They are the 10% difference from 3 red to 5 red. Those numbers are what a 5/5/3 build has to determine if they can overcome. Take good old Thor. HP are 10200, meaning you need to get him to 3060 or 4080 depending on your build. So. Can you get 1020 more dmg out of your Molotov cocktail than 3/5/5 before 3/5/5 gets Thor to 4080 hitpoints? Here's a chart. This counts your turn only and documents with no strike tiles, no tile matching, just pure paper numbers.

Turn

---

5/5/3

---

CD

---

3/5/5

---

CD
============================================
1 783

---

2

---

783

---

3
2 783

---

1

---

783

---

2
3 861 (78)

---

2

---

783

---

1
4 939 (78)

---

1

---

848 (65)

---

3
5 1095 (156)

---

2

---

913 (65)

---

2
6 1251 (156)

---

1

---

978 (65)

---

1
7 1485 (234)

---

2

---

1108 (130)---3
8 1719 (234

---

1

---

1238 (130)---2
9 2031 (312)

---

2

---

1368 (130)---1
10 2343 (312)

---

1

---

1563 (195)----3
11 2733 (390)

---

2

---

1758 (195)----2
12 3123 (390)

---

1

---

1953 (195)----1
13 3591 (468)

---

2

---

2213 (260)

---

3
=============================================
The number in the () is the attack tile damage dealt that turn.
As you can see 5/5/3 does a lot more dmg and grows exponentialy faster than 3/5/5, but......can you keep all those tiles out? So taken those numbers, the 595,680, 1020 etc. It would take you until turn 11 of casting Molotov to do more dmg with your black to get you within range to down Thor with your red faster than 3/5/5. To down a 6800 guy quicker by turn 9 you have done 663 more dmg, not 680, so it takes 10 turns. Now you throw in strike tiles and that margin shrinks, but only on turn 3. That's because you get the attack tile out 1 turn faster. After that again, a wash. Say you have 366 worth of strike tiles out that drops everything about 2 turns. Therefore you could take Thor down on turn 9, Magneto on turn 8.

When I really looked at these numbers, I couldn't justify 5/5/3 anymore. 3/5/5 just downs guys faster, and is more reliant. What it made me think though, is that lvl 5 black needs a little bit more of a dmg boost and I think it needs to be just a smidge more on the AoE dmg and a couple more on the attack tiles. 5/5/3 is higher risk therefore I feel it needs a better reward. The saving grace of 5/5/3 is if you have a solid red team member 5/5/3 is a bit better, but straight up 3/5/5 is quicker as a single target take down.

as you noted, this does not include strike/attack damage. but it also doesn't include damage or powers from your other 2 characters. I think it's true that punisher is versatile in that either build is useful - it just depends on his role on your team. I tend to use another character as a tank (lazy cap / thor / etc), so I need Punisher for quick damage to the opposition's support or weaker characters while building up for a finishing move like CoTS, which means 5/5/3. When I had him as 3/5/5, I was using him as a finisher and pairing him with board controllers or someone else who could lay out quick damage.

I guess if you have a stacked 3* roster, 5/5/3 is more useful since your red AP is likely going elsewhere (and 30% takedown is still useful in a pinch). If pun is your main 3*, 3/5/5 is probably more useful in punching above your weight class....

imho.

Phaserhawk

"coffeeandbacon wrote:

as you noted, this does not include strike/attack damage. but it also doesn't include damage or powers from your other 2 characters. I think it's true that punisher is versatile in that either build is useful - it just depends on his role on your team. I tend to use another character as a tank (lazy cap / thor / etc), so I need Punisher for quick damage to the opposition's support or weaker characters while building up for a finishing move like CoTS, which means 5/5/3. When I had him as 3/5/5, I was using him as a finisher and pairing him with board controllers or someone else who could lay out quick damage.

I guess if you have a stacked 3* roster, 5/5/3 is more useful since your red AP is likely going elsewhere (and 30% takedown is still useful in a pinch). If pun is your main 3*, 3/5/5 is probably more useful in punching above your weight class....

imho.

you're right about the other powers and match dmg, but it's going to be the same regardless of build. if you do 1000 dmg from thor, that still doesn't change the above dmg. Except when the first attack tille goes off for the 5/5/3 build they each do some form of dmg each turn, and that dmg dealt from that first attack tile is going to dictate the quickness of the takedown. You have to get the extra damage only from Punisher's Molotov in compairing the two, because they assume all things happen the same except the build.

No matter how you shake it. The dfference between the two builds all comes down to how much does that first attack tile that goes off 1 turn sooner than the 3/5/5 end up doing?

Let's look at current 3* reds

BWGS
Captain
Daredevil
Human Torch
IM40
Magneto
Psylocke
Ragnarok
Sentry
She-Hulk
Storm
Hulk
Thor
Wolverine

Off those reds whose are capable of doing the 4080 dmg Pun's lvl 5 retribution can do or close to it?
Captain
Daredevil
Torch
IM40
Mags (with strike tiles)
She-Hulk (if cascade occurs)
Sentry
Storm
Thor (if cascade occurs)
Wolverine

If you whittle these down to playable or consistent, I would say, Captain, Torch, Mags, Sentry. These are top tier reds that are relativly cheap for their costs and what they do. Now Cap and Sentry's cost 11 and do massive dmg but Puns' costs 8, have a little self control and Pun will save you a lot of hit points. Torch and Mags are the only 2 reasons I could see running a 5/5/3 Punisher as you would never have the red to cast Retribution when you use these two. Torch whith his red AP return has probably the best red in the game. And with Magnetized Projectile and strike tiles, no one can top Mags. What really sucks is the AI isn't smart enough to use Retribution properly which is probably good otherwise we'd be screamin OP.

Neuromancer

Phaserhawk's numbers are correct. Given this, I'm still a proponent for 4/5/4. Rarely do I play the character in the vacuum state of PvE where you race against countdown tiles (I'm a Bane, screw PvE), and the versatility in damage is far too important to me in defense against AP shortages. To myself, I can't justify the reduction in straight team damage that 3/5/5 yields, and 5/5/3 stifles the big red hit at the cost of a countdown tile that I see disappear far too often.

Green is only tolerable to me because you can fire it off just before you unleash hot death. You have a firm grip on its utility, though it is sad when the ensuing cascade wipes out the attack tiles. Thankfully, this is rare.

This thread ultimately teaches: you can't go wrong with a 166 Punisher. Just be true to your own play style.

Unknown

Neuromancer wrote:

Phaserhawk's numbers are correct. Given this, I'm still a proponent for 4/5/4. Rarely do I play the character in the vacuum state of PvE where you race against countdown tiles (I'm a Bane, screw PvE), and the versatility in damage is far too important to me in defense against AP shortages. To myself, I can't justify the reduction in straight team damage that 3/5/5 yields, and 5/5/3 stifles the big red hit at the cost of a countdown tile that I see disappear far too often.

Green is only tolerable to me because you can fire it off just before you unleash hot death. You have a firm grip on its utility, though it is sad when the ensuing cascade wipes out the attack tiles. Thankfully, this is rare.

This thread ultimately teaches: you can't go wrong with a 166 Punisher. Just be true to your own play style.

I dunno... 4 or 5 in black doesn't do any more team damage than 3 in black, and I have a hard time buying that it's worth giving up the 40% KO for a teensy boost in attack tile damage. For the lower countdown at 5 black, maybe, but not for the 4 black.

vudu3

gamar wrote:

I dunno... 4 or 5 in black doesn't do any more team damage than 3 in black, and I have a hard time buying that it's worth giving up the 40% KO for a teensy boost in attack tile damage. For the lower countdown at 5 black, maybe, but not for the 4 black.

I completely agree with this. The damage from the attack tile by itself is negligible. The pain comes from Judgement + the attack tile(s). 4/5/4 is the worst build imaginable because you're sacrificing both the reduced countdown on Molitov and the quicker instant-kill of Retribution. You have to choose between Molitov and Retribution--there is no middle ground.

Neuromancer

Oh, yeah, my bad. I thought the team damage was at 4. Screw that, 3/5/5 FTW.

Red's importance has increased due to the hike in character hitpoints anyway, thus increasing the gap from the 30% to 40% instakill.

Given this, I still might argue that 4/5/4 is preferable to 5/5/3, as playing with countdowns is rubbish outside of a stagnant environment. Too much of a gamble. The straight red damage is too important for me to surrender.