*** The Punisher (Dark Reign) ***

Unknown

atomzed wrote:

With the addition of falcon, who can pump up the strike tiles and attack tiles, does this swing the debate towards a 5/5/3 build? I have a 5/3/5 (draw of the covers) so when I respec I have the option of both builds. Since I am likely to have a 3/3/3 falcon, I thinking he might be a good addition with pun.

Doom's attack tiles are the only ones worth boosting falcons 3 boost per match is tailor made for punishers 3 strike tiles at 5g

Unknown

The extra 10% health for Retribution is 870 HP on Thor and 700 HP on Captain America/Black Panther. It definitely matters against these guys. They're hard enough to kill as is.

Retribution is fairly ordinary against the 5800 HP guys but there are a lot of strong guys with more than 5800 HP now.

mags1587

Phantron wrote:

The extra 10% health for Retribution is 870 HP on Thor and 700 HP on Captain America/Black Panther. It definitely matters against these guys. They're hard enough to kill as is.

Retribution is fairly ordinary against the 5800 HP guys but there are a lot of strong guys with more than 5800 HP now.

I would disagree on how much it really matters. It might be nice in some situations, but if you've already got them down below 50% health imo, the extra 10% isn't going to make or break a match. I've gone up against a couple of 141 Thors (in this tourney and elsewhere) and at least one team of max or near max Thor and BP. I have not had a problem killing them with a 5/5/3 Punisher yet. (Of course, now that I've said that I'll get wiped out by the next lazyThor I face.) I think both builds for Punisher are viable and it really comes down to personal preference.

NorthernPolarity

mags1587 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The extra 10% health for Retribution is 870 HP on Thor and 700 HP on Captain America/Black Panther. It definitely matters against these guys. They're hard enough to kill as is.

Retribution is fairly ordinary against the 5800 HP guys but there are a lot of strong guys with more than 5800 HP now.

I would disagree on how much it really matters. It might be nice in some situations, but if you've already got them down below 50% health imo, the extra 10% isn't going to make or break a match. I've gone up against a couple of 141 Thors (in this tourney and elsewhere) and at least one team of max or near max Thor and BP. I have not had a problem killing them with a 5/5/3 Punisher yet. (Of course, now that I've said that I'll get wiped out by the next lazyThor I face.) I think both builds for Punisher are viable and it really comes down to personal preference.

The only time I've had 10% on retribution really matter is in PvE against ridiculously scaled enemies. When your enemies have 10-15k hp, you're talking about an extra 1k damage, which while won't matter all of the time, occasionally is the difference between life or death, since I've found myself in situations where the enemy just got enough AP to launch a game-ending move, and I just crossed the 40% threshold without any other abilities that I can use. I think that it boils down to personal preference as well though: 5 black is the more consistent build, whereas 5 red is the randomly win you the game that you should have lost in PvE build.

Dauthi

Phantron wrote:

The extra 10% health for Retribution is 870 HP on Thor and 700 HP on Captain America/Black Panther. It definitely matters against these guys. They're hard enough to kill as is.

Retribution is fairly ordinary against the 5800 HP guys but there are a lot of strong guys with more than 5800 HP now.

Is it? Do you do the math to check if they are at 40% every time it looks like they are? Like I said 30% is more efficient because you can easily identify when they are at 30%. If you are doing the math every time you think they are at 40% then you end up using your time inefficiently which matters in PVP (and in real life, but that is subjective).
I think you are underestimating how useful it is to always have attack tiles out to utilize strike tiles vs an unlikely and/or impractical 10% bonus to retribution (in pvp). I do believe that in PVE the scaling can outweigh the benefit black offers though. Personally I plan to change my Punisher to 5 red as soon as I have a replacement for him in my PVP team, unless they fix scaling (lolyarite).

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I think that it boils down to personal preference as well though: 5 black is the more consistent build, whereas 5 red is the randomly win you the game that you should have lost in PvE build.

I agree.

Phaserhawk

NorthernPolarity wrote:

mags1587 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The extra 10% health for Retribution is 870 HP on Thor and 700 HP on Captain America/Black Panther. It definitely matters against these guys. They're hard enough to kill as is.

Retribution is fairly ordinary against the 5800 HP guys but there are a lot of strong guys with more than 5800 HP now.

I would disagree on how much it really matters. It might be nice in some situations, but if you've already got them down below 50% health imo, the extra 10% isn't going to make or break a match. I've gone up against a couple of 141 Thors (in this tourney and elsewhere) and at least one team of max or near max Thor and BP. I have not had a problem killing them with a 5/5/3 Punisher yet. (Of course, now that I've said that I'll get wiped out by the next lazyThor I face.) I think both builds for Punisher are viable and it really comes down to personal preference.

The only time I've had 10% on retribution really matter is in PvE against ridiculously scaled enemies. When your enemies have 10-15k hp, you're talking about an extra 1k damage, which while won't matter all of the time, occasionally is the difference between life or death, since I've found myself in situations where the enemy just got enough AP to launch a game-ending move, and I just crossed the 40% threshold without any other abilities that I can use. I think that it boils down to personal preference as well though: 5 black is the more consistent build, whereas 5 red is the randomly win you the game that you should have lost in PvE build.

I agreed with your statement until you said 5 black is more consistent than 5 red???? What?? It's 100% the exact opposite. You can always count on red, you know with a calculator what their health has to be in order to down them. Remember x% multipled by total health is the number you shoot for. Both builds 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 do about the same amount of damage in the end. Yes you can get more attack tiles out with 5/5/3 and essential do more damage, but you usually end up doing the difference in damage from 30% to 40% which is why they are a wash. Both have their merits in PvE. but to say that 5/5/3 is more consitent when you rely more on a tile that is randomly placed and easily destroyed over a set number to finish a guy off on is just out and out wrong. 3/5/5 is infinitely more consistent. 5/5/3 has the potential to do more damage which is why they are generally a wash and why I 100% agree with your personal preference statement but 3/5/5 is the more consistant build. 5/5/3 has higher high's, but also lower lows but 3/5/5 is just solid

Unknown

Ghaaa. I have 2 Black covers expiring today. current build is 3/5/5.
General question: My Punisher is max 141, so if I drop to 3R, does it do the damage at max level (1482) and 30% killshot? Or does the max level damage stat only apply to a 5 cover skill?

mags1587

coffeeandbacon wrote:

Ghaaa. I have 2 Black covers expiring today. current build is 3/5/5.
General question: My Punisher is max 141, so if I drop to 3R, does it do the damage at max level (1482) and 30% killshot? Or does the max level damage stat only apply to a 5 cover skill?

The base damage is less - at level 141 with 3 red, Punisher will do 1112 damage with the 30% killshot.

Unknown

mags1587 wrote:

coffeeandbacon wrote:

Ghaaa. I have 2 Black covers expiring today. current build is 3/5/5.
General question: My Punisher is max 141, so if I drop to 3R, does it do the damage at max level (1482) and 30% killshot? Or does the max level damage stat only apply to a 5 cover skill?

The base damage is less - at level 141 with 3 red, Punisher will do 1112 damage with the 30% killshot.

That makes sense. Thanks!

Unknown

mags1587 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The extra 10% health for Retribution is 870 HP on Thor and 700 HP on Captain America/Black Panther. It definitely matters against these guys. They're hard enough to kill as is.

Retribution is fairly ordinary against the 5800 HP guys but there are a lot of strong guys with more than 5800 HP now.

I would disagree on how much it really matters. It might be nice in some situations, but if you've already got them down below 50% health imo, the extra 10% isn't going to make or break a match. I've gone up against a couple of 141 Thors (in this tourney and elsewhere) and at least one team of max or near max Thor and BP. I have not had a problem killing them with a 5/5/3 Punisher yet. (Of course, now that I've said that I'll get wiped out by the next lazyThor I face.) I think both builds for Punisher are viable and it really comes down to personal preference.

Against thor 700 damage can be the difference of a ko and not a ko sometimes. That's the difference, for thor, possibly of dropping a thunder/cots combo and not stopping one. That combo, btw, is almost guaranteed to ko your guy in front and mash your other two pretty nicely. o call it trivial is a little much from personal experience. Same with magneto 4 vs 5 purple. Sure, 600 or so difference, not including extra tiles available, might seem like nothing but many tunes that the difference between a ko and leaving someone @ 300 hp. It's not huge, but its also not trivial.

That said, in pve is where the 3/5/5 shines. In PvP the red tends to be the bottom half of your list of "best colors" usually unless they are running thor or hulk. I would rather have black (punisher if tiles are out, bp, doom), green (anyone worth running), yellow (if thor), blue/purple (if mag or obw). The black isnt bad,its just different. Not sure why ppl are STILL trying to argue which is a better build. They are both basically equal but different. Run what you are comfy with.

Phaserhawk

coffeeandbacon wrote:

Ghaaa. I have 2 Black covers expiring today. current build is 3/5/5.
General question: My Punisher is max 141, so if I drop to 3R, does it do the damage at max level (1482) and 30% killshot? Or does the max level damage stat only apply to a 5 cover skill?

Your Red damage will drop to about 1111 and you will down enemies at 30% not 40%. At lvl 4 the damage goes up to 1482 so you would have to leave at least 4 in red to keep the 1482 dmg.

Phaserhawk

By the way and why I really beleive it's a wash between 3/5/5 and 5/5/3.

Lets say you want to take on Thor, that's 8700 hit points. Lets assume you keep all strike tiles out and no Molotov tiles get destroyed.

Well 3/5/5 will be able to take down Thor 870 points sooner than 5/5/3.

3 Green Matches to get AP = 540 minimum tile dmg

3 Black Matches to get AP = 603 miminum tile dmg

3 Red Matches to get AP = 468 minim tile dmg

So you have done 1611 dmg to Thor he's at 7089. You fire Judgement and lets say you get a tile match you just did 400 he's now at 6689. You cast Molotov 668 + 304 = 972 Thor's at 5717

After 6 turns since Molotov 3/5/5 would have 2 Attack tiles out and with Strike tiles would have done 1686 in dmg, 5/5/3 would have 3 attack tiles out and would have done 2537 dmg.

At this point 3/5/5 would have Thor down to 4031 and 5/5/3 would have Thor down to 3180

3/5/5 needs 551 more damage to use retribution and 5/5/3 needs 570 to use retribution

However, during those 6 turns we would have matched tiles and if we had strike tiles out it would have been at least 350 per match to be safe. and guess what, they would both be able to down Thor at the start of turn 5 after casting Molotov.

As you can see it's a wash, If all damage stays on the board you can kill Thor or any other guy on about the same turn no matter if you build 3/5/5 or 5/5/3. 3/5/5 prefers to rely on solid damage and a high % red to finish their target, and 5/5/3 chooses to wittle down the opponent with attack and strike tiles. With Falcon being a static value and not a % it will not have any difference on either Punisher now. 5/5/3 if you combo your team correctly can do much more damage than 3/5/5 especially with a Daken or Patch you can really get those attack tiles moving, but...you have to keep those attack tiles out, if you are unable to do so then you start to lose damage compared to 3/5/5. Which goes to my early statement 5/5/3 has higher highs in dmg but it also has lower lows. 3/5/5 cannot do as much dmg as 5/5/3 technically can but it also won't do as little as 5/5/3 either. You always want 5 in green, as for the others pick a preference and stick with it, you are okay, but don't ever do 4/5/4 that will really hurt your dmg output as you get the worst of both. 5/5/3's power comes from the CD timer being 2 and 3/5/5's power comes from the 40% downing, if you run 4/5/4 you lose both of those

Dormammu

Phaserhawk, you are what I classify as The Wizard.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6696

mags1587

Phaserhawk, thanks for crunching the numbers on that.

Unknown

Nice post Phaserhawk.

The only point I would add to it is the 5 in Retribution is better in PVE when goons get above LT max HP. In PVP definetly personal preference however in PVE, at least until they fix the often unreasonable scaling, 40% downing can be important.

Phaserhawk

Dormammu wrote:

Phaserhawk, you are what I classify as The Wizard.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6696

Well in all honesty I use to believe 3/5/5 was the only build and was the best, but when I looked at the numbers and the outcomes, 5/5/3 is no worse. They do roughly the same amount of damage from a numbers aspect. 5/5/3 does a little more on the front end with tiles and DoT's and 3/5/5 does more on the back end going more raw damage. I'm sure they each have their niche, I can definetely see 5/5/3 being great against Goons where 3/5/5 is awesome against those fatties.

Unknown

Another difference between 3/5/5 and 5/5/3 will come in how you pair him up with other characters and what your play style is. If he is in with someone who can either control cascades/matches or goes for stunlock-esque techniques 5 green edges a bit better, since you tend toward more matches per turn. If you're mostly matching away turns then cocktails will add up more quickly.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Did Molotov Cocktail change, or have I always had it wrong?

Phaserhawk

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

Did Molotov Cocktail change, or have I always had it wrong?

Don't know but I know mine is that much at lvl 141 and he's 3/5/5

darthmental

How many of you punisher players are actually using or planning to use Falcon as a teammate with Punisher?

I'm trying to decide whether its worth the effort and ISO to level up my Falcon to replace OBW on the team.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!