***** Apocalypse (Classic) *****

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Comments

  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,534 Chairperson of the Boards
    He’s perfect for my style of play. Fun, unique, quick, 3 active powers, and plays well with tons of characters. Really really hope I get to champ him. I’m cool with him not being broken but hope he shakes up the meta. Tired of skipping Kitty/BRB, Bishop/BRB over and over looking for a Thorkoye to hit with my fun team combos.  I just looked, and I’ve used exactly 30 different 5* characters in Iron Fist’s PVP for example. Apocalypse is the type of character that would get tons of play from me. 
    I also itching to champ him, bec he works well with a variety of characters. That can spice things up for PVP.
  • optimus2861optimus2861 Posts: 1,232 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spotted a champ in the wild today, so with the new character boost he clocked in at level 543. A sneak preview:
    • 174,000 health (!!)
    • Black (3 covers) does 4 hits @ 19,500 each
    • Red 4 hits @ 8,400 each
    • Yellow boosts damage output by 18,000
    So add yellow to either black or red... 4 x 37,500 (!) or 4 x 26,400 ignoring protect tiles (!).

    Yee. Ikes.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 4,923 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 24 May 2020, 21:55
    Spotted a champ in the wild today, so with the new character boost he clocked in at level 543. A sneak preview:
    • 174,000 health (!!)
    • Black (3 covers) does 4 hits @ 19,500 each
    • Red 4 hits @ 8,400 each
    • Yellow boosts damage output by 18,000
    So add yellow to either black or red... 4 x 37,500 (!) or 4 x 26,400 ignoring protect tiles (!).

    Yee. Ikes.
    Fwiw, level 550 is ~ 100% better than 450 for all characters.  The leveling scale is not linear, but it is standardized across all characters.  So 5*s more or less double in strength from 255->380, then double again from 380->450, and one more time from 450-> 550. 

    So from 255->450 is just about a 4x increase in health, match damage, and power strength for 5*s.  (But from 70->270 is only about a 2x increase for 4*s).
  • BadBad Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    Usually when a char is really good... champed is OP. Im standing at my first words. Absolutely recommended like BRB. But no, he is not broken by himself. 
    Maybe there will be people waiting for a total broken char for to pull him.
    And then complaining about him for 2 years. 
    Not discarded at all doing both things at the same time.
    About him on defense... chars wich require special powers combo are the worst for AI. 
    His powers instead are really simple. 
    He has no op passive that is true. But its difficult that AI could mess his powers. So I dont think he will be bad at all on defense. 
    And be prepared to fight him on future.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,834 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:

    About him on defense... chars wich require special powers combo are the worst for AI. 
    His powers instead are really simple. 
    He has no op passive that is true. But its difficult that AI could mess his powers. So I dont think he will be bad at all on defense. 
    And be prepared to fight him on future.
    No they can and will mess him up. The AI won’t fire yellow before black/red which results in leaving a bunch of damage on the table. If you deny yellow then black just places protects and heals rather than mega nukes your team.

    Now his high health and cheap powers means that he can luck into some wins or cripple you with a bad cascade. He’s also not as bad as say Grey Suit Widow in the AI’s hands. But the fact that the AI won’t play him optimally is a big drawback versus Hulkoye Worthy/Hawk, BRB/Kitty, or Bishop/Anyone.  Those buses pretty much drive themselves. 
  • BadBad Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    No they can and will mess him up. The AI won’t fire yellow before black/red which results in leaving a bunch of damage on the table. 

    Al wont optimice the damage with yellow that is true. But his powers are strong enought to not be dependent on that. 
    Im not going to explain further of course. I will let players find their way with no more cues lol.
  • optimus2861optimus2861 Posts: 1,232 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 24 May 2020, 23:38
    No they can and will mess him up. The AI won’t fire yellow before black/red which results in leaving a bunch of damage on the table.

    If the enemy Apoc gets a cascade that charges yellow and one (or both) of red/black.. you are potentially in for some hurt, because the AI will always fire yellow first in those cases, since yellow is always the first power fired (same reason Mystique always hits her purple-black combo if she gets all the necessary AP at once). So his red will get boosted in those cases, even if his black usage won't be optimal. Plus, he fires his yellow once, and so long as one repeater hangs around, the red/black will hurt all the more. And he's got a big-**** health pool to all but ensure he'll get that yellow off at least once.

    Super optimal? No. So. Yeah. Not a Gambit-1.0. Still gonna be freakin nasty.
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,534 Chairperson of the Boards
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
  • BadBad Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    AI will fire inmediatly when it gets. But notice that yellow is not a relevant power and not very popular. If you constantly are denying yellow fearing a good use of AI it could be that you are gaining useless AP in a lot of teams. And yellow is mostly defensive anyway. 
    So... its not an easy problem there. 
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 4,923 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed said:
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
    AI always fires in this order: yellow, red, blue, green, purple, black, TU.
    And only ever one ability per color, per turn, even if it has enough ap to double cast.
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,534 Chairperson of the Boards
    atomzed said:
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
    AI always fires in this order: yellow, red, blue, green, purple, black, TU.
    Ooh I never knew that! So it’s by colour sequence rather than order of ability! That’s interesting and useful to know!
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,534 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:
    atomzed said:
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
    AI always fires in this order: yellow, red, blue, green, purple, black, TU.
    And only ever one ability per color, per turn, even if it has enough ap to double cast.
    But the “restriction” of double cast only applies to 1 character right? Meaning that if there’s Enough ap, character 1 will cast one power, and follow by character 2 who will cast another power. 
  • BriMan2222BriMan2222 Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
    atomzed said:
    Vhailorx said:
    atomzed said:
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
    AI always fires in this order: yellow, red, blue, green, purple, black, TU.
    And only ever one ability per color, per turn, even if it has enough ap to double cast.
    But the “restriction” of double cast only applies to 1 character right? Meaning that if there’s Enough ap, character 1 will cast one power, and follow by character 2 who will cast another power. 
    Yeah,  I know I've been in matches vs hammer hawk where if they have enough ap cap will fire his blue and/or red ability and Hawkeye will fire his blue and/or red but no one will ever fire their own power multiple times in one turn. 
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 4,923 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 28 May 2020, 00:00
    atomzed said:
    Vhailorx said:
    atomzed said:
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
    AI always fires in this order: yellow, red, blue, green, purple, black, TU.
    And only ever one ability per color, per turn, even if it has enough ap to double cast.
    But the “restriction” of double cast only applies to 1 character right? Meaning that if there’s Enough ap, character 1 will cast one power, and follow by character 2 who will cast another power. 
    As far as I know this is correct, but pretty rare (because usually the low ap ability will burn off enough ap that the higher cost one is never cast).  Only after a big cascade or when using an ap generator like 5*he + worthy.
  • Waddles_PinesWaddles_Pines Posts: 847 Critical Contributor
    Bad said:
    AI will fire inmediatly when it gets. But notice that yellow is not a relevant power and not very popular. If you constantly are denying yellow fearing a good use of AI it could be that you are gaining useless AP in a lot of teams. And yellow is mostly defensive anyway. 
    So... its not an easy problem there. 
    From what I understand, if the AI has enough AP, it will then randomly choose between the 3 characters.  So, in worse case scenario, you have Cap/LCap, it will randomly choose between Apoc's 7 yellow power and Caps 19 yellow power.  So, it may be a long while before Apoc's yellow fires. 
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,432 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:
    atomzed said:
    Vhailorx said:
    atomzed said:
    @optimus2861
    i always thought that the AI will fire the powers in order of their sequence. This means that apocalypse will fire his black power first, then red and then yellow IF they have all the required Ap.
    in practice this means that the AI will often waste a black or red, before it is buffed by yellow. 
    AI always fires in this order: yellow, red, blue, green, purple, black, TU.
    And only ever one ability per color, per turn, even if it has enough ap to double cast.
    But the “restriction” of double cast only applies to 1 character right? Meaning that if there’s Enough ap, character 1 will cast one power, and follow by character 2 who will cast another power. 
    As far as I know this is correct, but pretty rare (because usually the low ap ability will burn off enough ap that the higher cost one is never cast).  Only after a big cascade or when using an ap generator like 5*he + worthy.
    Hammercap teams will routinely demonstrate this behavior, with each character firing off their blue and red once each per character.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,432 Chairperson of the Boards
    Anybody notice in the Onslaught PVP that an enemy apocalypse will target the invisible lowest health opponent and just waste his attack doing 0 damage rather than moving on to the next viable target? I wonder if this is a bug or just how it works?
  • AkromaAkroma Posts: 63 Match Maker
    edited 18 June 2020, 04:38
    @Akroma

    In the case of your friend, Apocalypse is a good 5* to start out with. High health, his powers work well together, and he does a lot of damage. For PvP, he will be useful against Beta/Kitty teams. Hopefully the next set of 5* characters have some synergy with him but in the event that they don't, he can always pair him with Bishop. 

    In your case, if you are looking at Apocalypse as a third wheel for your Okoye/Thor combo for PvE then I think you will be a bit disappointed. Not that he will be bad, it's just Sabertooth does more for the AP your team will be using than Apocalypse. Consider: Apocalypse's black requires protect tiles in order to do damage. Assuming you use yellow to heal Okoye and generate TU tiles, you will have to use his black twice to get damage from that power. Also don't forget his black will burst heal your lowest health teammate if there are no protect tiles on the board, which risks putting Thor over 50% and shutting down his AP generation.

    On the other hand, Sabertooth's black does damage on the first go. Additionally Sabertooth's red is one AP less. It might not seem much but it counts if you are going for speed. 

    Finally, Apocalypse's red, black and yellow match damage are higher than Okoye's so you will need to level her higher otherwise Apocalypse will tank some of those colors and Okoye will burn TU tiles. 

    Just to be clear, it's not that Apocalypse is bad but simply Thor/Okoye/Sabertooth is a much more efficient and smoother team.

    If your concerned about the value of Apocalypse for your roster, it seems he will be more useful for you in PvP. He will go well with Beta, Iceman and Prof X. So if you are looking to increase your team variety for PvP, he will definitely add value there. Just not so much for PvE.



    hi :D i know its a little long before i asked about apoc with okoye and thor :D or apoc whatsoever in my roster.
    one important thing i forgot to mention is that my okoye cant tank red :( so when i go thorkoye on scl10 i usually have to get black or purple or blue ap so thor dont tank red or green :( so even when i use sabretooth, i have to get the red for his skill via thors passive. if i have apoc he will get red.

    knowing that, is apoc any good for my roster pve wise? (thor okoye kitty iceman prof x beta carnage strange storm and black bolt, all level 451ish)
    thanks :)

    maybe thor apoc beta in pve scl10? :(
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,834 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m seeing a lot of people running Apoc 5/3/5. Can anyone make a good argument for this build? Or, any build other than 3/5/5? Assuming optimal conditions (fire yellow first, have 4 protects on the board), here are the damage numbers at four different builds. 

    3/5/5

    ⚫️ (9522 + 8784) x 4 = 73,224

    🔴 (4102 + 8784) x 4 = 51,544

    124,768 Total


    5/3/5

    ⚫️ (11572 + 8784) x 4 = 81,424

    🔴 (3956 + 8784) x 3 = 38,220

    119,644 Total


    5/5/3

    ⚫️ (11572 + 5856) x 4 = 69,712

    🔴 (4102 + 5856) x 4 = 39,832

    109,544 total


    4/4/5

    ⚫️ (10254 + 8784) x 4 = 76,152

    🔴 (4102 + 8784) x 3 = 30,454

    106,606 total


    It seems yellow at 5 is a no-brainer because he’s also boosting his allies as well as his own abilities. So you get the largest ROI there. Splitting the difference and going 4/4/5 gives the lowest total damage output, so for me that’s out.

    That leaves 3 red or 3 black as your optimal builds.  And I go 3 black for many reasons.

    1) As seen above, you get the largest total damage output.

    2) There is no black battery in the 5* tier, but a damn good red one in Thor. So you are likely to fire red more often.

    3) In the protect tile meta, all of red’s damage gets through. Can’t say the same for black. 

    4) Black takes longer to fire for optimal damage as you need to wait for yellow to be fired AND for protects to get on the board. Red just needs the repeater (so it’s more AI dummy proof as well). 

    5) A fourth tic of damage on red gets additional boosts from Okoye/Strike tiles/etc. that cuts through defenses. You lose that going 5-black.

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