*** Daredevil (Man Without Fear) ***

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  • Psylocke is more like Doom. She's buffed to 140+ for me in the sim and her red strike tiles are almost 200 each, which is what my almost maxed Doom's punch tiles are. At max covers I bet red is beast, plus the black is a nice bonus and actually the blue doesn't suck. It's not great but if you're running a rainbow group it can be handy.

    eta: oh this is DD's thread? I'm still leveling him, I think he's fun backup, he's just not a lead. Which is unfortunate with his colors but whatever.
  • PuceMoosePuceMoose Posts: 1,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    I want to have one of each cover, (missing blue), as he is fun to keep for a tank team. Using nothing but sausage drop to take out the enemy is strangely satisfying. I mentioned it in another thread, but my 18 Daredevl / 13 Bullseye / default character generates big smiles when killing that final seed team.
  • pasa_ wrote:
    KevinMark wrote:
    I have 4 covers of him in different colors now. I think if you can use all 3 of his abilities, enemies are bound to match some of his traps. I'm not sure if its AP costs go up as you add covers though. If AP costs stay the same, they are kinda spammable.

    Sim #2 offers a well evolved DD you can try out. On my games he sucked bigtime, most contribution was to go down instead of someone of value.
    By Sim#2 you mean this recent event or round 2 of that event? I haven't logged in for r2 yet. Regardless, I played with him in several matches in r1 and he felt good. I killed one enemy with red ability from full health and spammed blue ability because I kept matching blue traps myself. I think it gives you extra blue for matching those apart from changing blue traps location on the board. Purple I haven't used much but I think it should work well too given AI's eagerness to match enviro tiles.

    Some player said DD would never work against people when you are on defense etc. There are several other heroes who don't work well in defense and are good on offense. Even then I think DD would hurt lots of unwary players.
  • EddiemonEddiemon Posts: 1,470 Chairperson of the Boards
    This is very akin to Pun's judgement for me.

    "You've a board of 63 basic tiles and 1 you want to keep? Imma gonna just take out that special tile for ya..."

    No its totally not his fault. It is like when you are playing golf and you want to hit that ball anywhere but into the water. You're going to hit it well left onto the fairway and play it safe because you will never make it over the water. You have it fixed in your minds eye what you are going to do and what you are not going to do.

    Cue splashing noise.
  • I got excited last night because I dropped an AP stealing trap onto a primely-matchable enviromental tile. I thought, "Hey--DD's going to do something for me!"

    The very next round the AI over-wrote that tile with a blue shield. Really? I mean, I know that AI tile creation is painfully random, but come on. What are the chances?

    (95/2048)
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    is 5/3/5 considered to be the most optimal Daredevil. I could see more on blue if you only used him against lvl 230 pve enemies, but also purple seems to be a waste since nobody matches enviro tiles other than the AI, thus making 5/3/5 I think the prefered build? Yes, NO? I know he sucks, but just wanted a verification
  • edited August 2015
    First off, there is another suggestion post for changing daredevil by JACOBPC: http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php? ... =daredevil
    That being said, my suggestions are more on the trap mechanics of Daredevil, rather than the abilities themselves.

    Something to note:
    - Traps disarmed are intended to work the same way as it is now
    - Numbers are based on maxed covers and level 141 stats of the current Daredevil: http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2504

    Radar Sense - 11AP
    Daredevil's heightened senses let him strike first, terrifying the enemy. turning 1 chosen Environment tile in Environment Trap tile that, when matched by an enemy, steals 6 AP from all colors. If you match the tile, it steals 1 Purple AP and returns 11 Purple AP(will not change location). Enemies cannot see the tile.

    Equalizer - 7AP
    Billy Club in hand, Daredevil prowls the battlefield, waiting to even the odds. turning 1 chosen Blue tile in Blue Trap tile that, when matched by an enemy, stuns for 6 turns. If you match the tile, it generates 1 Blue AP and returns 7 Blue AP(will not change location). Enemies cannot see the tile.

    Ambush - 7AP
    Daredevil lurks in the shadow, ready to strike. turning 1 chosen Red tile in Red Trap tile that, when matched by the enemy, deals 7712 damage(will need to be toned down a lot). If you match the tile, the enemy takes 148 damage and returns 7 Red AP(will not change location). Enemies cannot see the tile.

    Rationale for these changes:
    These suggestions are mainly to reduce the RNG aspect of Daredevil's abilities and trying to make him more viable, while still retaining his unique trap mechanics. In fact, if you ask me, it doesn't make sense why you would even make random traps in the first place. Just imagine placing a mouse trap on top of your ceiling fans(or anywhere ridiculous for that matter) hoping to catch something, that just makes no sense but I digress.

    The returning of AP when you match the trap yourself is to make up for removing the effect of changing location, to retain a similar effect of not wasting the traps when you match it yourself. In addition, this opens up Daredevil potential and versatility since effectively, you will have akin to 6 abilities with each ability having 2 kind of effects. For example: You can use equalizer right before you make a blue tile match so you will get 1 more blue AP, or using ambush before you make a red match to deal additional damage(debatable if this should stack with strike tile like OBW's espionage).

    The damage of ambush when matched by opponent needs to be reduced a lot because simply by being able to choose which tile to put the trap on, it reduces a lot of RNG factors and in fact you can almost make it consistent with the AI being generally predictable and stupid at times. I don't really know how much the damage should be reduced but personally I would dumb it down to maybe 3k damage, which is still really high compared to the AP cost.

    Pros:
      More versatile, able to satisfy different roles(AP generator, AP steal, damage support/dealer, stun) Less randomness involved in his skills Harder for traps to be disarmed since you can choose when to activate the traps(not using when an opposed m.storm got 10 green AP for lightning strike)
    Cons:
      Becomes more of a support character with more options but not as effective Skills are still situational depending on the board Skills are dependent on the opponents faced(for example: some characters are less likely to match red because of no red skill)

    That's the concept of what I thought up for improving Daredevil trap mechanic. Feel free to discuss or criticise whatever you think of these ideas. icon_e_smile.gif

    Random grumbling:
    Well, I do know that these ideas are most likely going to be ignored and won't be implemented but still, these ideas have been floating around in my head so why not put them up for discussion and whatnot so, yeah.

    ***
    Edited to add final poll results.

    Item - Votes - % of Total Votes
    Great idea! Let's implement them or riot! icon_e_biggrin.gif - 2 - 29%
    Pretty cool idea, but it will be even better if combined with JACOBPC's idea! icon_e_smile.gif - 1 - 14%
    Neat thought, although it can still be refined further. - 0 - No votes
    Your idea is lousy. I prefer JACOBPC's suggestion on how we should change Daredevil. - 0 - No votes
    I don't like any of the ideas but I don't know how to improve him yet. - 2 - 29%
    These ideas are so silly! Just leave Daredevil as he is now. icon_evil.gif - 1 - 14%
    I honestly don't care about Daredevil at all. Bring on my favourite "insert character" instead! - 1 - 14%
  • R_DashR_Dash Posts: 24
    Currently, the ways to disarm DD's traps are the following:

    1 - Kill Daredevil -- this makes sense, he can't deal the damage if he's dead
    2 - Destroy the tile with an ability -- ex. Storm's Green. Makes sense that this would disarm the trap, this should probably stay
    3 - Have it destroyed when a 4-of destroys a line -- I could see an argument that this should actually trigger the trap rather than destroy it. After all, the enemy deals damage and gains AP for the destroyed tiles, so it seems like they are "matching" them in some sense and could make sense that they'd get hit by the trap, too.
    4 - Abilities that transform the tile (but don't change the color) -- Ex. Wolverine's strike tiles. These abilities seem to be flavored as "powering up" the tile, it'd be really nice if the red strike tile (for example) could coexist with DD's red trap.
    5 - Abilities that transform the tile completely -- Example: Captain America's abilities. These should probably continue to disarm the trap

    In sum -- I'd really like it if DD were powered up by making it a little harder to disarm his traps. As it stands, he's a character with a really fun concept but the general consensus is that he's bad. Making some of these changes would stay true to the design intent but make it so that he actually works the way that it looks like he should.

    I particularly want to harp on 4 -- The fact that these tile power-up abilities disarm DD's traps means that he is basically unplayable any time Dakken or 2* Wolverine is on either side of the match. Can't be used with them or against them. That's really unfortunately, because those are popular characters and it really hurts DD's viability.
  • The logic in 3 should apply to 2 as well, at least for Storm, since she gains AP and attack by breaking those tiles. ...and it's my experience that hitting a trap with the "line" of a 4 or 5 match does trigger the trap.

    I think 4 is interesting, though. I don't like that strike tiles can negate DD's traps, though it makes sense that if they didn't, the trap could wind up being obvious. Coexisting could be nice, though I'm not sure how tricky implementation would be.
  • The kick in the teeth for me was using Ambush, putting the trap down in a useable spot. Then the computer matches a green with Daken on the team, and the strike tile OVERWROTE and DISARMED the trap.

    What on earth...

    Then the 2nd time they did a 4-match in the same row as the trap and killed it (legitimately) that way.

    I think I'd rather use Bagman. Can we get Lazy Bagman already?
  • That's a good start and add traps getting independent, so working despite stun/down. What makes no sense at all really.
  • KevinMark wrote:
    Sim #2 offers a well evolved DD you can try out. On my games he sucked bigtime, most contribution was to go down instead of someone of value.

    By Sim#2 you mean this recent event or round 2 of that event?[/quote]

    No I meant the second node of the line going to the ISO pile in 1st round with 2 in title.
  • PorkBellyPorkBelly Posts: 516 Critical Contributor
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    is 5/3/5 considered to be the most optimal Daredevil. I could see more on blue if you only used him against lvl 230 pve enemies, but also purple seems to be a waste since nobody matches enviro tiles other than the AI, thus making 5/3/5 I think the prefered build? Yes, NO? I know he sucks, but just wanted a verification

    I would go with that.

    Generally, if I need to stun an opponent, it is for a specific purpose (i.e., not allowing Hulk's Anger to go off) so I generally don't want to just wait on it.

    Conversely, I'll always be happy to do damage or collect AP whenever the opportunity presents itself.
  • With this change, I could see people saving up the AP to wait for a match-4, then placing the trap on those tiles. You know the enemy always goes for match-4, so you'd get guaranteed hit on your trap.

    Still, I think your suggestion would be a step in the right direction.
  • I wonder if they even test out characters before they release them, because in his current from DD is absolutely terrible.
  • Its worth noting that Thor's color transforms do not disarm the trap. You can suddenly have a green stun trap or a yellow damage trap if the tile is transmuted in color.

    I see no reason why a DD trap can't coexist with a tile buff such as strike tile or countdown tile. Until it can, Daredevil is a 3* joke. Worst of the lot by a wide margin.
  • R_DashR_Dash Posts: 24
    Wow, that's really inconsistent. D3P should probably decide what exactly:
    -Disarms the trap
    -Coexists with the trap
    -Triggers the trap

    Then, tell us what's on that list, so we can report non-compliance as bugs.
  • Today I won several deadly (over level 100, not maxed 230s) missions on hard sim thanks to DD's red and blue traps. Just remember to change targets accordingly. It's not nice when someone about to die gets caught with red trap icon_lol.gif
  • Seems consistent to me. Each tile has a color and may have a modifier (e.g. strike, attack, trap). Changing the color will leave the trap intact, changing the modifier will disarm the trap, destroying the tile with a skill will disarm the trap, matching the tile (row destruction by a 4-match applies) will trigger the trap. Chained effects (e.g. Storm green) will destroy or trigger the trap based on whether the trap was hit by the initial skill or the resulting cascade.
  • pasa_ wrote:
    That's a good start and add traps getting independent, so working despite stun/down. What makes no sense at all really.
    I believe that is actually debatable in a way since from the description of the skill ambush: "Daredevil lurks in the shadow, ready to strike." , it would make sense if the trap can't go off if Daredevil is stunned/downed since he isn't in a condition to "strike" I guess but I think that's open to one's interpretation.
    With this change, I could see people saving up the AP to wait for a match-4, then placing the trap on those tiles. You know the enemy always goes for match-4, so you'd get guaranteed hit on your trap.

    Still, I think your suggestion would be a step in the right direction.
    True, this will allow people to effectively snipe for the certain effect they want, hence the need to nerf the damage on Daredevil's red skill or else it will be doing too much damage despite being quite reliable. However, I would argue that Daredevil's skills will still be very situational depending on the board so even though the change will allow the effects to be guaranteed, it's still not really overpowered.

    Example: You want to prevent the enemy from using certain abilities by triggering radar sense to steal their AP, or triggering equalizer to stun them.
    In order for you to accurately achieve this, you need to:
    -have a match-4 of the required colour/environmental tiles, or with one required tile that will get hit in the row by a match-4
    -the enemy does not have enough AP to activate the said ability that you were trying to deny
    -and of course have the required AP necessary

    In order for you to steal their AP successfully and prevent them from using a certain skill, you will need to satisfy these conditions together at the same time. You can't wait till they have enough AP to trigger their abilities, then try to steal their AP since the AI will use abilities before making their match.

    Obviously, the red skill ambush will still be really good since it has good damage(hopefully, even after being toned down) but do keep in mind that by doing so, it will:
    -cost you a match-4 that you could have matched yourself
    -allowing your opponent to build up AP with that match-4 and possibly casade resulting from this(we all know how deadly this can be sometimes)

    All in all, the idea is to push Daredevil into a more reliable support character, rather than throwing random traps on the board and hoping it will be triggered someday. That being said, Daredevil's abilities will still be very situational and will require you to have good insight as to know when to activate his abilities.
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