Bishop sucking the fun out of the game
Comments
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At the very least they could make 5*'s like every other tier. Even our their match damage so there is not so much variation. At the same level Phoenix matching 3 green should hurt the same as Carol matching 3 red.blankcanvas said:
Not that I dare to try take this off topic, but this is an excellent point and highlights yet another issue that really does need resolution from the dev team; 5* power creep and the absolute necessity of having the older 5s such as SS, Phoenix, Banner etc all desperately needing reworks to bring them in line with the new age of 5s.bluewolf said:On average, you would spend 2200 CP to get one cover for all the 5's in Classics at the moment. (It will go up when Rescue enters.) So yes, it's possible to cover people from Classics but my estimate for doing anyone from scratch who you don't bonus (as much as that helps) is between 29-35K CP. Hopefully you'd get some covers from feeders or something.....
I finished Surfer with the help of Reed pretty recently (he is 450) and as has been pointed out numerous times, his match damage is very weak (he is 36th out of all the 5's) so he'd need to be ginormous to be tanking reliably over the power-crept newer members in the tier.
Not to mention that Surfer all around is pretty weak and ineffective, but at least he can't be stunned.0 -
The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous.
You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point?
Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...
Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.
Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.
#bishopsucksfor20likes3 -
Thor was power creep, no question. Running him with Okoye, yeah, it's problematic in a sense. It's very easy to use them and all that.
The problem is that after you give someone a toy that they enjoy, taking it without giving them different, just-as-effective toys is not a good idea.
Especially in a 6 year old mobile game where you are trying your hardest to find new people to decide to engage with it, being 6 years behind veteran players and knowing they will never be truly competitive.
Nerfing the tool that many players lean on? Without giving them something equally good to use? will just lead to people walking away, when you are not growing as a game, you're holding steady.
That makes no business sense.
Thor came after Gambit and gave a lot of the same tools - AP gen, massive hits. Do you think it was a coincidence that they waited to nerf Gambit until a new meta was available? Do you think they would have nerfed Gambit if Okoye didn't exist?
He would have laughed at Gritty and they would be a complete non-starter in his 2.0 form.
Maybe Thor gets nerfed when some other OP person comes along that does something approximately equal.
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Yes, I agree with all that. Doesn’t all this Bishop stuff stink of hypocrisy then?
I am in fact not in favor of a Thor nerf, as I’ve stated multiple times. The point is you can make any point you like with enough confirmation bias and when any challenge is shouted away as complete nonsense.
Its bordering on subterfuge.2 -
If 6* are released and they get shut down by Thor, I’m all for the nerf.1
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As some I am hearing a lot of back and forth on Bishop and I think the biggest problem is the Dev’s don’t go back and rebalance their characters enough. I think the last character rework was Mr Fantastic in the beginning of the year.
I personally would like to me to see them review and rebalance a lot of characters that means buffs as well as nerfs. This could be monthly for one to two characters with a potential reworking a character on a quarterly basis. This would be 5* and 4*.
personally for Bishop I mainly see him in Sim and when he has his weekly Buff. It is not the end of the world for me to face him, but it is not my favorite character to go up against. I do think there is enough frustration from the player-base to have the devs review Bishop and determine if and how he could be rebalanced2 -
Maybe it looks like cult mentality because Bishop negatively affects the entire 5* tier.jp1 said:The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous.
You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point?
Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...
Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.
Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.
#bishopsucksfor20likes
Thor is strong in his own tier but gives you options to deal with him. You can target him whenever you like. You can actually match 3 against him without him dumping on you. Bishop literally gains 8 ap for every 3 that a 5* character facing him does and does double the match damage. You also cannot save him for later in the match. He gives you no choice but to get dumped on for simply matching 3. I'm not sure how that is not put in close comparison with gambit that gained 9 to his opponents 1 but did not do damage at the same time.8 -
Look, no offense, but you just did everything I accused the nerf-detractors of in my last post.jp1 said:The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous.
You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point?
Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...
Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.
Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.
#bishopsucksfor20likes
Should Thor be nerfed? I personally don’t think so, for plenty of reasons. However, it is debatable. I won’t pretend that it’s not. If you or Hound want to start a new thread or bump an old one, I’m all for it. I’ll likely debate it in whatever thread you all decide to use.
I pointed out several arguments that people have made as to why Bishop should be nerfed, and you still claim we boil it down to one issue devoid of context.
You attack the posters, saying they have a “cult mentality” rather than attack their arguments (plural) as to why he should be nerfed. If that’s the route you want to take, then I support you “giving up” in this thread.
Maybe the reason why they all have a “cult mentality” is because they are all seeing the same broken mechanic? Most those who are not part of the “cult” are NOT getting punished for matching 3, are NOT having a miserable time with Bishop and do NOT see him as a problem in their tier?
It’s not about 20 likes, saving health packs, or any other point that you brought in that is besides the actual points being made. Bishop needs to be fixed for all the reasons I stated in my last post. I’m not going to repeat them all if they are just going to be sidestepped again.
When focusing on his actual mechanics, you stated that when looked at in “a vacuum”, what Bishop does every time a 5* team matches 3 is “not okay”. If nothing else, know that I appreciate you at least acknowledging as much.
8 -
Thor's mechanic is not ridiculous at all, and I'm not just saying this because I have him and don't want a nerf, I only have like 4 covers for him and all of my champed 5 stars are old (black panther, thanos, hawkeye, ghost rider, dr strange). He, unlike bishop, can be easily played around, like a puzzle, to avoid his passive. He doesn't get set off just by matching 3 like you have to do in every match. You first have to take him down to half health, so this can be easily avoided by saving him for last.jp1 said:The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous.
You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point?
Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...
Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.
Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.
#bishopsucksfor20likes
Also the claim that he is "doing massive damage" isn't really true in 5 star land. When my champed 5 stars all have like 40k health on avg and his passive does about 1500 damage each turn that isn't really all that massive by 5 star standards. I also haven't noticed him gaining all that much ap from his passive, but maybe that is just because like I said I save him for last and by the time his passive is going off I have enough ap to keep him stunned with ghost riders red and make him hurt himself by making matches or I can just use thanos purple to stop his passive entirely.
As a 5 star player thor is good, but I don't fear him and it's rare that he beats me. Bishop on the other hand, I can beat but it takes much more luck and as others have said, just a small amount of bad luck can turn things side ways fast, and unlike thor, I can't just save him for last or work around him. He jumps in front no matter who i target and no matter what match 3 move I make.
Thor is good by 5 star standards, arguably even the best, but his mechanic is not broken or unavoidable. Bishop on the other hand punishes you for making match 3's in a match 3 game.5 -
Normally I find you to be a rational person. However in these debates you have become increasingly abrasive. You continue to state opinions as facts, plural. Further if any attacks have been made they certainly haven’t been made by me. Again bias is obstructing judgment about what is and what is not a discussion based in good faith.Daredevil217 said:
Look, no offense, but you just did everything I accused the nerf-detractors of in my last post.jp1 said:The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous.
You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point?
Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...
Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.
Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.
#bishopsucksfor20likes
Should Thor be nerfed? I personally don’t think so, for plenty of reasons. However, it is debatable. I won’t pretend that it’s not. If you or Hound want to start a new thread or bump an old one, I’m all for it. I’ll likely debate it in whatever thread you all decide to use.
I pointed out several arguments that people have made as to why Bishop should be nerfed, and you still claim we boil it down to one issue devoid of context.
You attack the posters, saying they have a “cult mentality” rather than attack their arguments (plural) as to why he should be nerfed. If that’s the route you want to take, then I support you “giving up” in this thread.
Maybe the reason why they all have a “cult mentality” is because they are all seeing the same broken mechanic? Most those who are not part of the “cult” are NOT getting punished for matching 3, are NOT having a miserable time with Bishop and do NOT see him as a problem in their tier?
It’s not about 20 likes, saving health packs, or any other point that you brought in that is besides the actual points being made. Bishop needs to be fixed for all the reasons I stated in my last post. I’m not going to repeat them all if they are just going to be sidestepped again.
When focusing on his actual mechanics, you stated that when looked at in “a vacuum”, what Bishop does every time a 5* team matches 3 is “not okay”. If nothing else, know that I appreciate you at least acknowledging as much.
I acted like like the rest of you for a single post, I’ll own that. But of course you have done no wrong throughout and my observation was a personal attack. A bit self indulgent in my view.
Cute lumping me in with Hound as well, since you all love to dump on him so. Sorry I am not towing the Bishop company line. Other people are entitled to opinions you know? Even when they differ from those of you and your buddies.1 -
Can we please get this thread back on track? Throwing out other characters that you feel need to be re-balanced just derails the topic, which is Bishop is a horrible, horrible toon and broken beyond reason. He should have never been released and needs to be fixed ASAP.
Start new threads for other re-balances.
I do have another thought: maybe a "Filter PVP teams" button so you can select "Don't show teams with Bishop on them". Everyone wins! 5* players don't have to look at them, 4* can float freely without wasting HP on shields, and the Devs go broke because no one is spending on HP anymore.7 -
Fair enough. You will notice if you read my subsequent post that I only used Thor for an example of what I consider to be flawed logic. I would never advocate for a nerf...the compensation is never adequate and it’s nothing short of theft in my opinion.Sm0keyJ0e said:Can we please get this thread back on track? Throwing out other characters that you feel need to be re-balanced just derails the topic, which is Bishop is a horrible, horrible toon and broken beyond reason. He should have never been released and needs to be fixed ASAP.
Start new threads for other re-balances.
I do have another thought: maybe a "Filter PVP teams" button so you can select "Don't show teams with Bishop on them". Everyone wins! 5* players don't have to look at them, 4* can float freely without wasting HP on shields, and the Devs go broke because no one is spending on HP anymore.
As soon as I have nothing more to respond to, I’ll leave the thread to it’s usual shoulder patting platitudes. (Sorry, a bit miffed at the moment...not directed at you)0 -
jp1 said:
Fair enough. You will notice if you read my subsequent post that I only used Thor for an example of what I consider to be flawed logic. I would never advocate for a nerf...the compensation is never adequate and it’s nothing short of theft in my opinion.Sm0keyJ0e said:Can we please get this thread back on track? Throwing out other characters that you feel need to be re-balanced just derails the topic, which is Bishop is a horrible, horrible toon and broken beyond reason. He should have never been released and needs to be fixed ASAP.
Start new threads for other re-balances.
I do have another thought: maybe a "Filter PVP teams" button so you can select "Don't show teams with Bishop on them". Everyone wins! 5* players don't have to look at them, 4* can float freely without wasting HP on shields, and the Devs go broke because no one is spending on HP anymore.
As soon as I have nothing more to respond to, I’ll leave the thread to it’s usual shoulder patting platitudes. (Sorry, a bit miffed at the moment...not directed at you)
You shouldn't leave the thread as you're one of the few proponents of leaving Bishop alone. I am also not an advocate of nerfs--I have never asked for a nerf before Bishop outside of Gambit. Not because I don't think they should re-balance characters (most games do so regularly) it's because they don't know how to re-balance characters. That said, I'm ok with a nerf into the ground because IMHO Bishop is broken within the 5* tier for reasons pointed out previously by myself and myriad others.2 -
Surfer will not tank red even when a decently higher level than Okoye/Kitty/JJ/Hela/Rescue/Ghost Rider/Captain Marvel. He loses 1v1 battles against Bishop because his match damage is lower than the counter attack damage and you can't generate blue fast enough to outheal it.tiomono said:I would like to point out that listing surfer as a true counter feels off to me. He has to tank to stop the stun. I also feel it is possible to cover characters from classic tokens, just slow. I have a 12 cover surfer but have yet to dump the iso in to raise him to 435. Right now he is at 365 and it will cost 229,851 to max his level out. But he still would struggle to tank much in a team of 2 other 5's. Maybe I will just take the plunge and level home up to see how good he is vs champed bishop.
For me the stun is not the issue. The issue is Bishop doing 4k damage to my 2k while gaining 5 ap to my 3. Then taking his own turn.
I remember having to grind down the Bishop hard node in the support circuit first because it was a **** shoot if you could clear it without wiping even given the option of bringing any team you wanted. I remember bringing my 470 Surfer and still losing. This was before players had access to high level Bishops and it was already clear he was going to be a problem.5 -
pvp is the reason for the debate if bishop wasn't in pvp, no one would care how op he is.
trying to drag the debate to reasons out of the pvp scope is a distractor.
i think the real problem is, that people don't understand how emotional a nerf can be.
when i just started playing seriously gambit just entered the latest store. i invested a ton of time and money to get him upgraded, and i was completely reliant on him for my gameplay.
i was not really aware of the heated debate in this forum around him, and i was completely taken by surprise when the nerfs came, and made him irrelevant, with zero compensation. i felt completely disappointed and i literally left the game for almost a year.
only recently i decided to come back to the game, and now i see this same thing happening again.
so i get it, some of the players that have bishop, absolutely love him, they feel dependant on what he has done to their game play, and they can't imagine the game without him. they refuse to even entertain critic and compare him to any other strong char, in order to defend their position.
i get it, and i get that this debate is not really meant to convince any one, because everyone have their own opinion and it will remain as it is.
the truth for me is that i can't beat teams with bishop in pvp. he is like a complete closed off defense, he is stronger than a shield cause at least a shield doesn't block my path. ever since bishop started popping up, i can't advance in pvp. i have to lose on purpose to get lower rank, in order to proceed.
against Groot & kitty i have 50% chance of winning if i am lucky, but against with bishop i have 0% chance of winning.
weather bishop generates more money to the game or not, bishop will get nerfed i am sure, this debate won't really make much difference.
he is just too broken.
the real problem is how will the dev team nerf him without causing players to be too upset, or even quit the game.
3 -
Xair said:They did offer compensation and many, many people sold their Gambits. But yeah, other than that they made him irrelevant....when i just started playing seriously gambit just entered the latest store. i invested a ton of time and money to get him upgraded, and i was completely reliant on him for my gameplay.
i was not really aware of the heated debate in this forum around him, and i was completely taken by surprise when the nerfs came, and made him irrelevant, with zero compensation...1 -
We should qualify that actually this is mostly about SHIELD sim, not all PVP. You can't run Grittyshop in most PVP. "The wall of Bishop" is not really elsewhere as far as I can tell and most complaints here are about Bishop + Gritty.Xair said:pvp is the reason for the debate if bishop wasn't in pvp, no one would care how op he is.
trying to drag the debate to reasons out of the pvp scope is a distractor.
i think the real problem is, that people don't understand how emotional a nerf can be.
when i just started playing seriously gambit just entered the latest store. i invested a ton of time and money to get him upgraded, and i was completely reliant on him for my gameplay.
i was not really aware of the heated debate in this forum around him, and i was completely taken by surprise when the nerfs came, and made him irrelevant, with zero compensation. i felt completely disappointed and i literally left the game for almost a year.
only recently i decided to come back to the game, and now i see this same thing happening again.
so i get it, some of the players that have bishop, absolutely love him, they feel dependant on what he has done to their game play, and they can't imagine the game without him. they refuse to even entertain critic and compare him to any other strong char, in order to defend their position.
i get it, and i get that this debate is not really meant to convince any one, because everyone have their own opinion and it will remain as it is.
the truth for me is that i can't beat teams with bishop in pvp. he is like a complete closed off defense, he is stronger than a shield cause at least a shield doesn't block my path. ever since bishop started popping up, i can't advance in pvp. i have to lose on purpose to get lower rank, in order to proceed.
against Groot & kitty i have 50% chance of winning if i am lucky, but against with bishop i have 0% chance of winning.
weather bishop generates more money to the game or not, bishop will get nerfed i am sure, this debate won't really make much difference.
he is just too broken.
the real problem is how will the dev team nerf him without causing players to be too upset, or even quit the game.1 -
Even if I fumble in a match against Thor and triggered his half health before downing him, I don't fear it activating. I can still beat him even if he gets two maybe even three turns with it. Even if he fires off a power because of it.
I fear Bishop's mechanic just seeing him as an opponent.1 -
Tinfoil hat theory:
Bishop makes you use health packs whether using him to tank or going against him. Thus no Nerf in immediate future3 -
I see bishop even unbuffed in regular pvp's. This is not about grittyshop. It's about bishop and what he does all on his own.DAZ0273 said:
We should qualify that actually this is mostly about SHIELD sim, not all PVP. You can't run Grittyshop in most PVP. "The wall of Bishop" is not really elsewhere as far as I can tell and most complaints here are about Bishop + Gritty.Xair said:pvp is the reason for the debate if bishop wasn't in pvp, no one would care how op he is.
trying to drag the debate to reasons out of the pvp scope is a distractor.
i think the real problem is, that people don't understand how emotional a nerf can be.
when i just started playing seriously gambit just entered the latest store. i invested a ton of time and money to get him upgraded, and i was completely reliant on him for my gameplay.
i was not really aware of the heated debate in this forum around him, and i was completely taken by surprise when the nerfs came, and made him irrelevant, with zero compensation. i felt completely disappointed and i literally left the game for almost a year.
only recently i decided to come back to the game, and now i see this same thing happening again.
so i get it, some of the players that have bishop, absolutely love him, they feel dependant on what he has done to their game play, and they can't imagine the game without him. they refuse to even entertain critic and compare him to any other strong char, in order to defend their position.
i get it, and i get that this debate is not really meant to convince any one, because everyone have their own opinion and it will remain as it is.
the truth for me is that i can't beat teams with bishop in pvp. he is like a complete closed off defense, he is stronger than a shield cause at least a shield doesn't block my path. ever since bishop started popping up, i can't advance in pvp. i have to lose on purpose to get lower rank, in order to proceed.
against Groot & kitty i have 50% chance of winning if i am lucky, but against with bishop i have 0% chance of winning.
weather bishop generates more money to the game or not, bishop will get nerfed i am sure, this debate won't really make much difference.
he is just too broken.
the real problem is how will the dev team nerf him without causing players to be too upset, or even quit the game.1
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