Is out of game collusion ruining PVP?
Comments
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NoRhycar said:I don't mean any offense by this, I really don't. But I fail to see how you could be so clueless as to think you could do this without coordination. You might not be coordinating, but the high scores you queue up are. Please understand, without coordination on their part, you aren't hitting a single opponent worth more than 39 points after you get past 800. You'd be slaughtered at 600 or lower. The reason you can make it to 900 is because lot of us put in the effort to drive scores, making your queues all worth way more than they would be otherwise.
Take another read, pay attention to the part where I say that the folks trading points in shield check rooms give me higher value lower difficulty targets. (Since reading is hard apparently, I'll copy it for you)
"I hope more people do the LINE coordination trading points thing, it inflates their scores past where they would normally get, so when I am making my climb I'll see fights with higher point values than their roster would normally have"
I am not in any way coordinating my playing activities with any of them. That's a fact, regardless of if you can wrap your brain around it or not, that's the great thing about facts. Again see the sentence
"The notion that either out of game coordination or a very strong roster is necessary to hit 900 is just not correct with the current state of the game"
My entire post is about how coordination is not necessary on my part, the current state of the game is that there are #check rooms that create points and high value low difficulty targets making it possible for mundane rosters to climb without requiring they join a LINE room or pay attention to who they hit.
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Spudgutter said:Don't these two statements cancel each other out? The fact that they made an adjustment based on new conditions implies that if the meta were to be adjusted, they would adjust the game with it, right?
Also, it basically cuts the legs out from any argument that ending out of game coordination won't lower scores for everyone. Demi has reduced the value of out of game coordination in the past, and it did drastically reduce scores across the board. QED
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Nobadsaj said:
If the OP said "is out of game cooperation ruining PVP" I would agree with you. it's the word "collusion" that makes it different in my mind. The definition of collusion is "secret cooperation in order to cheat or deceive". That is not the question that the NO votes are answering, therefore it is a strawman.Beer40's posts in the thread were less restrictive than a very direct reading of the word "collusion" might imply.3 -
NoBeer40 said:
And therein lies my original question. Outside communication definitely is helping some players (by their own account) and its definitely hurting some players (by their own account).I refused several alliance-mate invites to the world of shield-checking, but learned some basics of player-developed rules of etiquette, and that if I hit those teams a little less quickly, giving them time to shield, fewer people would come looking for me, in addition to giving more consideration to the fact that hitting a team after giving them time to shield means they don't have a retaliation node to hit you back.
As it probably is for a number of players, "PvP etiquette" was the gateway drug into shield-checking, and now I'm socially invested in PvP collaboration.
And I have to agree with others on this being necessary to my continued play of the game. I'd have quit over a year ago if I didn't have a community of players I collaborate with, chat with, and make horrible jokes with.3 -
YesOut of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.4
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entrailbucket said:Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.0
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MaybeOnce upon a time, there was a game of Jenga already in progress. The tower of blocks is named "pvp." In this game of Jenga, there are different victory conditions based on how high you build the tower. The problem is that the designer of the game didn't give enough blocks to the players. It was virtually impossible to reach the best victory conditions.
A very small percentage of players soon realized that the best way to increase the size of the tower was to coordinate their efforts. If the players removed pieces and replaced them in just the right order, they could build the tower to unprecedented heights. They were even allowed (for a time) to make some pieces of the tower really easy to move for the next person (sometimes a designated person) to come along.
Since the game had no mechanism for this communication, the players built a scaffold around the tower that allowed players at different levels to communicate with one another. This was ingenious, but it created a whole other layer to the game that some players didn't want to learn or play.
The players would argue from time to time about the quality of the tower. Some would prefer the tower be completely redesigned, others thought the scaffolding should be removed, others thought the scaffolding could accommodate all of the players, still others just thought that the game would be more fun if it were simpler.
The moral of this story: You can't make everyone happy playing Jenga.9 -
entrailbucket said:Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.0
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RedLion said:Once upon a time, there was a game of Jenga already in progress. The tower of blocks is named "pvp." In this game of Jenga, there are different victory conditions based on how high you build the tower. The problem is that the designer of the game didn't give enough blocks to the players. It was virtually impossible to reach the best victory conditions.
A very small percentage of players soon realized that the best way to increase the size of the tower was to coordinate their efforts. If the players removed pieces and replaced them in just the right order, they could build the tower to unprecedented heights. They were even allowed (for a time) to make some pieces of the tower really easy to move for the next person (sometimes a designated person) to come along.
Since the game had no mechanism for this communication, the players built a scaffold around the tower that allowed players at different levels to communicate with one another. This was ingenious, but it created a whole other layer to the game that some players didn't want to learn or play.
The players would argue from time to time about the quality of the tower. Some would prefer the tower be completely redesigned, others thought the scaffolding should be removed, others thought the scaffolding could accommodate all of the players, still others just thought that the game would be more fun if it were simpler.
The moral of this story: You can't make everyone happy playing Jenga.
And all of them are confused as to why everyone else is playing the game wrong.14 -
NoI side with the no's. Without coordination with non-alliance members via outside apps, scores above a certain level (about 900 points) would be limited to a few with loaded 5* rosters, feasting on the 4*s who've climbed to that area. The top would become a sloggy mess, and growth via progression would be very limited.0
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MaybeSo many things to comment on. I guess first and foremost is the people going on about "if outside coordination didnt exist, I would quit ". Funny, some of these same people "quit" when they nerfed the old man, and quit when they got rid of cupcakes and quit at every other crossroads they didn't like. If you're going to quit then quit, dont just make idle threats.
Second. The idea that nobody would get to 900 without coordination. Every single hit below 1000 points is technically worth more points for the attacker than the defender loses. The only reason 3* rosters dont hit 900 is because they all give up too soon. And someone even said 500 would be tough. You only lose half the points at 500, so if you still didn't make 500 thats on you.
Finally, all these people acting like they coordinate for the greater good. You coordinate to score well above progression and to have your name in lights. That's the only reason. You're just fooling yourself otherwise.2 -
MaybeA_Wise_Man said:So many things to comment on. I guess first and foremost is the people going on about "if outside coordination didnt exist, I would quit ". Funny, some of these same people "quit" when they nerfed the old man, and quit when they got rid of cupcakes and quit at every other crossroads they didn't like. If you're going to quit then quit, dont just make idle threats.
Second. The idea that nobody would get to 900 without coordination. Every single hit below 1000 points is technically worth more points for the attacker than the defender loses. The only reason 3* rosters dont hit 900 is because they all give up too soon. And someone even said 500 would be tough. You only lose half the points at 500, so if you still didn't make 500 thats on you.
Finally, all these people acting like they coordinate for the greater good. You coordinate to score well above progression and to have your name in lights. That's the only reason. You're just fooling yourself otherwise.1 -
entrailbucket said:Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.0
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NoMissChinch said:
Take another read, pay attention to the part where I say that the folks trading points in shield check rooms give me higher value lower difficulty targets. (Since reading is hard apparently, I'll copy it for you)
"I hope more people do the LINE coordination trading points thing, it inflates their scores past where they would normally get, so when I am making my climb I'll see fights with higher point values than their roster would normally have"
I am not in any way coordinating my playing activities with any of them. That's a fact, regardless of if you can wrap your brain around it or not, that's the great thing about facts. Again see the sentence
"The notion that either out of game coordination or a very strong roster is necessary to hit 900 is just not correct with the current state of the game"
My entire post is about how coordination is not necessary on my part, the current state of the game is that there are #check rooms that create points and high value low difficulty targets making it possible for mundane rosters to climb without requiring they join a LINE room or pay attention to who they hit.
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YesI think there are two sides to this:
- out of game collusion allows people to hit the progression score targets they otherwise wouldn't be able to, so that's good for them.
- developers set the score targets based on how players perform, so out of game collusion distorts that feedback and disadvantages those players who are not participating in it.
The easiest change would be to make shielded players targetable: their point totals would still be protected, but people could fight against them. This would remove the benefit of knowing when a high point total player was about to unshield. It might be necessary to balance this by limiting how often you could attack a certain shielded player, but the decreasing returns might handle that okay as is.
This would have a large effect on achievable scores, so would need to be paired with a rework of the progression rewards. Maybe it would be nice to set them such that a player who is in the process of building their 3* roster actually has a chance of hitting the 3* cover progression reward ...
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Hold on, **** is LINE?1
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YesI think people on both sides are exaggerating here. I get that some people enjoy the current system, but I do think PVP should be every man for himself, not about who is the best at beating their friends' intentionally weak teams.
I might have a harder time hitting 900 if "out of game collusion" were eliminated, but I'd still support a PVP revamp with that intent.3 -
RVA_DemonPig said:Hold on, tinykitty is LINE?
***Removed reference to an alliance - Ducky1 -
YesSo i voted my gut at first, but after reading some of the responses, I don't mind the whole LINE community thing.
Anyone care to share how to join these rooms? I like playing well with others, and don't want to ruin someone's climb with a mistimed attack. =/0 -
Yesinb4 people who benefit from abusing the system start complaining
Ahhh, too late. Nevermind.
Oh, and the system is working as intended. Same as other issues that can't be fixed, same as cheating whales.
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