Is out of game collusion ruining PVP?

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  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    No
    Rhycar said:
    MissChinch said:
    Beer40 said:
    Daiches said:
    Lol.. "out of game collusion" as you so negatively call it, is the main reason 1200 progression scores are even available to be reached. If you are looking to play friendly with groups of 200 people (some find that number daunting, some don't want to play friendly at all, etc.. each plays as he wants), you are welcome to join check rooms. You will have an easier time and you may make some friends. 
    Being able to play together with friends is what has kept this game going for so long after all.
    Your choice to interpret it negatively I suppose. I actually think you might be right about the part I put in bold. The rest of what I'm going to type is directed towards everyone, not you specifically.

    That's a part of the reason I asked the question to begin with. We've seen various accusations and admittance of people not being able to get past 800-900 because they're crushed once they get to/near that point total. 

    So my thought on the "natural order of things" is that very, very few people were probably intended to get to 1,200. With outside collusion/collaboration more people are able to reach that goal. However, more people that should be able to get to 800-900 aren't able to because they aren't a part of this outside community. However, maybe they are replaced in some instances by people that shouldn't be able to get to 800-900 because those people are part of the community? Who knows about that, really. It's possible. And that could be why PVP doesn't get changed, because the bottom numbers look right.

    So my thought is that if you remove the outside collusion/collaboration less people will get to 1,200 but many more will get to 800-900 because there won't be groups larger than actual alliance size that can stop them. So in a way, badsaj is also correct in their interpretation of the question. Its all a part of the question.

    I have a handful of 4*s, don't cooperate with anyone in PvP, and don't play PvP for lengthy periods of time.  In slice 1 I've hit 900+ now all season, I only shield if I want to keep the points for the end of the event.


    No line groups are necessary, neither is a crazy roster...  Personally I play super casual PvP for the first day or so, hit someone wait for the health to recharge if necessary, hit again...  one battle and then do something else.  


    With 8-10 hours left I go from the score I've climbed to in the past day (between 300-500) to 900.  For this I play quickly back to back and skip to find teams worth 40+ points that I can defeat.  I keep an eye on my health packs, I'm fine to use them in this climb, but I don't want to run out, I'll pick teams accordingly.


    Getting the progression cover with a roster that's got a handful of 4* champs is far more quickly done in PvP than PvE.  No alliances are necessary, no LINE or check rooms...  For my purposes I hope more people do the LINE coordination trading points thing, it inflates their scores past where they would normally get, so when I am making my climb I'll see fights with higher point values than their roster would normally have, hit them and climb to 900.


    I completely understand that 900 can be hard to get, but I don't follow how that could be attributed to coordination and check rooms in LINE.  I can absolutely see how having a line check room could potentially help a weak roster get to 900, but I don't see how it could hinder a roster not in the check room... 


    The notion that either out of game coordination or a very strong roster is necessary to hit 900 is just not correct with the current state of the game.  Personally I saw an instant improvement in points moving to the first slice, instead of picking one that ended late in the evening (EST). 

    FWIW: 575 was doable with 3*s and no champ 4*s, 900 has been doable with a few 4* champs... understanding what teams your team composition can take, what teams they can dominate without taking much damage, and what teams look weak but will destroy you is EXTREMELY useful, and quite necessary, it opens up some 50+ point fights and allows you to skip the 30 point traps.

    I don't mean any offense by this, I really don't. But I fail to see how you could be so clueless as to think you could do this without coordination. You might not be coordinating, but the high scores you queue up are. Please understand, without coordination on their part, you aren't hitting a single opponent worth more than 39 points after you get past 800. You'd be slaughtered at 600 or lower. The reason you can make it to 900 is because lot of us put in the effort to drive scores, making your queues all worth way more than they would be otherwise.

    Take another read, pay attention to the part where I say that the folks trading points in shield check rooms give me higher value lower difficulty targets.  (Since reading is hard apparently, I'll copy it for you)

     "I hope more people do the LINE coordination trading points thing, it inflates their scores past where they would normally get, so when I am making my climb I'll see fights with higher point values than their roster would normally have"


    I am not in any way coordinating my playing activities with any of them.  That's a fact, regardless of if you can wrap your brain around it or not, that's the great thing about facts.  Again see the sentence

    "The notion that either out of game coordination or a very strong roster is necessary to hit 900 is just not correct with the current state of the game"

    My entire post is about how coordination is not necessary on my part, the current state of the game is that there are #check rooms that create points and high value low difficulty targets making it possible for mundane rosters to climb without requiring they join a LINE room or pay attention to who they hit. 

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spudgutter said:
    Vhailorx said:
    The net result was noticeably lower progression scores in PVP (so much so that demi had to nudge down the progression rewards in PVP because the vast majority of players could not get close to the 4* cover at 1k), and lower overall participation in PVP.  

    Further argument on this issue is pointless.  We have all said this all before. 
    Don't these two statements cancel each other out?  The fact that they made an adjustment based on new conditions implies that if the meta were to be adjusted, they would adjust the game with it, right?
    It means demi has ALREADY tried making exactly the adjustments that OP has requested, and the net effect was a smaller pool of players, and exactly the same out-of-game-coordination tactics as were seen previously.  The PVP game got a little bit worse because demi tried doing what OP is suggesting.  Why should we players want to see that happen again.

    Also, it basically cuts the legs out from any argument that ending out of game coordination won't lower scores for everyone.  Demi has reduced the value of out of game coordination in the past, and it did drastically reduce scores across the board.  QED
  • Dayv
    Dayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    No
    badsaj said:

    If the OP said "is out of game cooperation ruining PVP" I would agree with you.  it's the word "collusion" that makes it different in my mind. The definition of collusion is "secret cooperation in order to cheat or deceive". That is not the question that the NO votes are answering, therefore it is a strawman.
    It's true that "collusion" has a connotation of illegal or illicit cooperation, but it also gets used more simply as a synonym for collaboration.  Some might even consider the online cooperation, be it through Facebook groups, Line rooms, or another closed-membership area to fit the definition of "collusion" simply through the obscurity or controlled access of a private discussion.

    Beer40's posts in the thread were less restrictive than a very direct reading of the word "collusion" might imply.
  • Dayv
    Dayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    No

    Beer40 said:
    And therein lies my original question. Outside communication definitely is helping some players (by their own account) and its definitely hurting some players (by their own account). 
    I spent a long time refusing to use any kind of outside-of-game communication for PvP.  I was probably a low-level "sniper" by some people's reckoning, as I saw any decent score I could take down as something I needed to do immediately, and would look at the scoreboard and check the rosters of unshielded people above me to see if they were worth looking for.  When I saw a "cupcake" team, I thought it was a fluke allowing me to see a team with unusually high points for their roster, and would attack it as quickly as possible in the hopes of finding it again.

    I refused several alliance-mate invites to the world of shield-checking, but learned some basics of player-developed rules of etiquette, and that if I hit those teams a little less quickly, giving them time to shield, fewer people would come looking for me, in addition to giving more consideration to the fact that hitting a team after giving them time to shield means they don't have a retaliation node to hit you back.

    As it probably is for a number of players, "PvP etiquette" was the gateway drug into shield-checking, and now I'm socially invested in PvP collaboration.

    And I have to agree with others on this being necessary to my continued play of the game.  I'd have quit over a year ago if I didn't have a community of players I collaborate with, chat with, and make horrible jokes with.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,650 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes
    Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.
  • Stax the Foyer
    Stax the Foyer Posts: 941 Critical Contributor
    entrailbucket said:
    Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.
    I always knew you were a forumite at heart, EB.   <3
  • Maceo511
    Maceo511 Posts: 67 Match Maker
    edited July 2017
    entrailbucket said:
    Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.
    I have  found the same experience as this poster.  I've found when I am in S4, it takes less than an hour to reach 1200
  • BearVenger
    BearVenger Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker
    No
    I side with the no's. Without coordination with non-alliance members via outside apps, scores above a certain level (about 900 points) would be limited to a few with loaded 5* rosters, feasting on the 4*s who've climbed to that area. The top would become a sloggy mess, and growth via progression would be very limited.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Maybe
    So many things to comment on.  I guess first and foremost is the people going on about "if outside coordination didnt exist, I would quit ".  Funny, some of these same people "quit" when they nerfed the old man, and quit when they got rid of cupcakes and quit at every other crossroads they didn't like.  If you're going to quit then quit, dont just make idle threats. 
         Second.  The idea that nobody would get to 900 without coordination.  Every single hit below 1000 points is technically worth more points for the attacker than the defender loses.  The only reason 3* rosters dont hit 900 is because they all give  up too soon.  And someone even said 500 would be tough. You only lose half the points at 500, so if you still didn't make 500 thats on you.  
       Finally, all these people acting like they coordinate for the greater good.  You coordinate to score well above progression and to have your name in lights.  That's the only reason.  You're just fooling yourself otherwise.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Maybe
    A_Wise_Man said:
    So many things to comment on.  I guess first and foremost is the people going on about "if outside coordination didnt exist, I would quit ".  Funny, some of these same people "quit" when they nerfed the old man, and quit when they got rid of cupcakes and quit at every other crossroads they didn't like.  If you're going to quit then quit, dont just make idle threats. 
         Second.  The idea that nobody would get to 900 without coordination.  Every single hit below 1000 points is technically worth more points for the attacker than the defender loses.  The only reason 3* rosters dont hit 900 is because they all give  up too soon.  And someone even said 500 would be tough. You only lose half the points at 500, so if you still didn't make 500 thats on you.  
       Finally, all these people acting like they coordinate for the greater good.  You coordinate to score well above progression and to have your name in lights.  That's the only reason.  You're just fooling yourself otherwise.
    You forgot the part where if they weren't playing this way,  the game would be DEAD!
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    entrailbucket said:
    Out of game coordination does indeed ruin PvP. Using LINE check rooms and BCs or whatever, players can more easily hit progression rewards and improve their rosters. This is bad for those of us who would like to make sure that no one else is able to join the 5* tier. Personally, I use LINE but almost never for coordination purposes. It's fairly easy to go from 0->1200 in one climb if you're any good at PvP. It usually takes me an hour or less per event. Playing past 1200 is completely pointless unless you have some deep need to see yourself on top of the leaderboard, or if you're running very low on Moonstone covers and you need the Heroic 10-Packs from season rewards. I say let coordination die and let's figure out who's actually good at the game.
    But how would I know to snipe you if I didn't have line for someone to tell me you were unshielded? I might actually have to use the skip button. 
  • Rhycar
    Rhycar Posts: 107 Tile Toppler
    No
    MissChinch said:
    Rhycar said:
    MissChinch said:
    Beer40 said:
    Daiches said:
    Lol.. "out of game collusion" as you so negatively call it, is the main reason 1200 progression scores are even available to be reached. If you are looking to play friendly with groups of 200 people (some find that number daunting, some don't want to play friendly at all, etc.. each plays as he wants), you are welcome to join check rooms. You will have an easier time and you may make some friends. 
    Being able to play together with friends is what has kept this game going for so long after all.
    Your choice to interpret it negatively I suppose. I actually think you might be right about the part I put in bold. The rest of what I'm going to type is directed towards everyone, not you specifically.

    That's a part of the reason I asked the question to begin with. We've seen various accusations and admittance of people not being able to get past 800-900 because they're crushed once they get to/near that point total. 

    So my thought on the "natural order of things" is that very, very few people were probably intended to get to 1,200. With outside collusion/collaboration more people are able to reach that goal. However, more people that should be able to get to 800-900 aren't able to because they aren't a part of this outside community. However, maybe they are replaced in some instances by people that shouldn't be able to get to 800-900 because those people are part of the community? Who knows about that, really. It's possible. And that could be why PVP doesn't get changed, because the bottom numbers look right.

    So my thought is that if you remove the outside collusion/collaboration less people will get to 1,200 but many more will get to 800-900 because there won't be groups larger than actual alliance size that can stop them. So in a way, badsaj is also correct in their interpretation of the question. Its all a part of the question.

    I have a handful of 4*s, don't cooperate with anyone in PvP, and don't play PvP for lengthy periods of time.  In slice 1 I've hit 900+ now all season, I only shield if I want to keep the points for the end of the event.


    No line groups are necessary, neither is a crazy roster...  Personally I play super casual PvP for the first day or so, hit someone wait for the health to recharge if necessary, hit again...  one battle and then do something else.  


    With 8-10 hours left I go from the score I've climbed to in the past day (between 300-500) to 900.  For this I play quickly back to back and skip to find teams worth 40+ points that I can defeat.  I keep an eye on my health packs, I'm fine to use them in this climb, but I don't want to run out, I'll pick teams accordingly.


    Getting the progression cover with a roster that's got a handful of 4* champs is far more quickly done in PvP than PvE.  No alliances are necessary, no LINE or check rooms...  For my purposes I hope more people do the LINE coordination trading points thing, it inflates their scores past where they would normally get, so when I am making my climb I'll see fights with higher point values than their roster would normally have, hit them and climb to 900.


    I completely understand that 900 can be hard to get, but I don't follow how that could be attributed to coordination and check rooms in LINE.  I can absolutely see how having a line check room could potentially help a weak roster get to 900, but I don't see how it could hinder a roster not in the check room... 


    The notion that either out of game coordination or a very strong roster is necessary to hit 900 is just not correct with the current state of the game.  Personally I saw an instant improvement in points moving to the first slice, instead of picking one that ended late in the evening (EST). 

    FWIW: 575 was doable with 3*s and no champ 4*s, 900 has been doable with a few 4* champs... understanding what teams your team composition can take, what teams they can dominate without taking much damage, and what teams look weak but will destroy you is EXTREMELY useful, and quite necessary, it opens up some 50+ point fights and allows you to skip the 30 point traps.

    I don't mean any offense by this, I really don't. But I fail to see how you could be so clueless as to think you could do this without coordination. You might not be coordinating, but the high scores you queue up are. Please understand, without coordination on their part, you aren't hitting a single opponent worth more than 39 points after you get past 800. You'd be slaughtered at 600 or lower. The reason you can make it to 900 is because lot of us put in the effort to drive scores, making your queues all worth way more than they would be otherwise.

    Take another read, pay attention to the part where I say that the folks trading points in shield check rooms give me higher value lower difficulty targets.  (Since reading is hard apparently, I'll copy it for you)

     "I hope more people do the LINE coordination trading points thing, it inflates their scores past where they would normally get, so when I am making my climb I'll see fights with higher point values than their roster would normally have"


    I am not in any way coordinating my playing activities with any of them.  That's a fact, regardless of if you can wrap your brain around it or not, that's the great thing about facts.  Again see the sentence

    "The notion that either out of game coordination or a very strong roster is necessary to hit 900 is just not correct with the current state of the game"

    My entire post is about how coordination is not necessary on my part, the current state of the game is that there are #check rooms that create points and high value low difficulty targets making it possible for mundane rosters to climb without requiring they join a LINE room or pay attention to who they hit. 

    Right. You don't have to coordinate, because others are doing it for you. That's not short-sighted at all.
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes
    I think there are two sides to this:
    1. out of game collusion allows people to hit the progression score targets they otherwise wouldn't be able to, so that's good for them.
    2. developers set the score targets based on how players perform, so out of game collusion distorts that feedback and disadvantages those players who are not participating in it.
    I think the first step to fixing PVP would be to reduce the benefits of collusion (since it is effectively impossible to stamp it out).

    The easiest change would be to make shielded players targetable: their point totals would still be protected, but people could fight against them.  This would remove the benefit of knowing when a high point total player was about to unshield.  It might be necessary to balance this by limiting how often you could attack a certain shielded player, but the decreasing returns might handle that okay as is.

    This would have a large effect on achievable scores, so would need to be paired with a rework of the progression rewards.  Maybe it would be nice to set them such that a player who is in the process of building their 3* roster actually has a chance of hitting the 3* cover progression reward ...
  • RVA_DemonPig
    RVA_DemonPig Posts: 3 Just Dropped In
    Hold on, **** is LINE?
  • Pants1000
    Pants1000 Posts: 484 Mover and Shaker
    Yes
    I think people on both sides are exaggerating here.  I get that some people enjoy the current system, but I do think PVP should be every man for himself, not about who is the best at beating their friends' intentionally weak teams.

    I might have a harder time hitting 900 if "out of game collusion" were eliminated, but I'd still support a PVP revamp with that intent.
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    edited July 2017
    RVA_DemonPig said:
    Hold on, tinykitty is LINE?
    Stop colluding. ***nope*** is the WORST.

    ***Removed reference to an alliance - Ducky
  • Landale
    Landale Posts: 157 Tile Toppler
    edited July 2017
    Yes
    So i voted my gut at first, but after reading some of the responses, I don't mind the whole LINE community thing. 

    Anyone care to share how to join these rooms? I like playing well with others, and don't want to ruin someone's climb with a mistimed attack. =/
  • Alsmir
    Alsmir Posts: 508 Critical Contributor
    Yes
    inb4 people who benefit from abusing the system start complaining

    Ahhh, too late. Nevermind.

    Oh, and the system is working as intended. Same as other issues that can't be fixed, same as cheating whales.
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