Is out of game collusion ruining PVP?

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  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    Yes
    Dayv said:
    badsaj said:

    There is a lot of strawmanning from the NO votes here. The question is not whether outside collaboration is a bad thing, clearly it's not. The online community is a critical part of the success of this game. The question is whether or not there are cases of members of this community banding together to target people for something.

    I'm not sure that straw-manning means what you think it does, and "the question" as provided in the poll is... exactly the question you say it isn't.
    Dayv is correct. The question is exactly about outside collaboration being a bad thing, yes or no. 
  • badsaj
    badsaj Posts: 73 Match Maker
    Yes
    Dayv said:
    badsaj said:

    There is a lot of strawmanning from the NO votes here. The question is not whether outside collaboration is a bad thing, clearly it's not. The online community is a critical part of the success of this game. The question is whether or not there are cases of members of this community banding together to target people for something.

    I'm not sure that straw-manning means what you think it does, and "the question" as provided in the poll is... exactly the question you say it isn't.

    If the OP said "is out of game cooperation ruining PVP" I would agree with you.  it's the word "collusion" that makes it different in my mind. The definition of collusion is "secret cooperation in order to cheat or deceive". That is not the question that the NO votes are answering, therefore it is a strawman.
  • MissChinch
    MissChinch Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    No

    I haven't joined a check room since cupcakes were abolished...  I can still get to 900, and the path to 1200 is pretty clear. 


    I have no doubt that people really actively participating in shield check rooms have an easier time getting higher points, but I view the hassle of constantly checking people and waiting as a cost in time that I'm not willing to put in.  I have no problem with better organization yielding better results... 


    I tend to think that the use of those rooms lets rosters get to a score they normally wouldn't be able to, which actually works out in my favor because I can hit weaker rosters for more points without using a ton of organization/planning. 

  • Stax the Foyer
    Stax the Foyer Posts: 941 Critical Contributor
    Many of the people advocating against LINE coordination are unaware of the benefit that they get from it.

    Do you play enough (in terms of progression reached) to notice a difference between off-season PvPs and in-season PvPs?  

    If you try for one of the higher progression awards, you probably do.  If you don't notice a difference, then there's a very small chance that LINE / Discord coordination has a negative effect on your gameplay.  

    Without out-of-game communication, events would trend towards "like off-season PvP, only more so."   That's not the kind of game that would keep me around.  (To be fair, there are some players who think that would be a great thing.)


  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    Yes
    Daiches said:
    Lol.. "out of game collusion" as you so negatively call it, is the main reason 1200 progression scores are even available to be reached. If you are looking to play friendly with groups of 200 people (some find that number daunting, some don't want to play friendly at all, etc.. each plays as he wants), you are welcome to join check rooms. You will have an easier time and you may make some friends. 
    Being able to play together with friends is what has kept this game going for so long after all.
    Your choice to interpret it negatively I suppose. I actually think you might be right about the part I put in bold. The rest of what I'm going to type is directed towards everyone, not you specifically.

    That's a part of the reason I asked the question to begin with. We've seen various accusations and admittance of people not being able to get past 800-900 because they're crushed once they get to/near that point total. 

    So my thought on the "natural order of things" is that very, very few people were probably intended to get to 1,200. With outside collusion/collaboration more people are able to reach that goal. However, more people that should be able to get to 800-900 aren't able to because they aren't a part of this outside community. However, maybe they are replaced in some instances by people that shouldn't be able to get to 800-900 because those people are part of the community? Who knows about that, really. It's possible. And that could be why PVP doesn't get changed, because the bottom numbers look right.

    So my thought is that if you remove the outside collusion/collaboration less people will get to 1,200 but many more will get to 800-900 because there won't be groups larger than actual alliance size that can stop them. So in a way, badsaj is also correct in their interpretation of the question. Its all a part of the question.

  • mpqr7
    mpqr7 Posts: 2,642 Chairperson of the Boards
    No
    Line is the only easy way I can make sure not to hit my own alliance members, especially since we have numerous alliances, ranging from casual to hardcore.

    Even if I was in a single alliance that wasn't part of a family, it would be basically impossible to shield-check my own team using the in-game chat alone.

    That's why pretty much every alliance only uses the in-game chat to specify what team-ups they want, and nothing else.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    No
    Rhycar said:
    Beer40 said:

    Call my cynical, but I find it hard to believe that this game would shut down if it shut down people's ability to coordinate between alliances. Maybe a few would quit. Maybe even a few spenders. But I'm fairly sure that spenders have quit for other reasons and I'm fairly sure they've found new spenders to replace them.

    This is where you're 100% wrong. This game withers and dies without the social aspect. Without it, it's another match-3 with a great license. Only in this case, it would be a match-3 from a tone-deaf developer that can't seem to understand its player base. This game flat out would not exist, at least not close to its current form, without a third-party social platform.
    To add what @Rhycar said,  during the Amazon sale last December, their were 1/2/5/10 Stark buys going on.   Yes. 10 buys and more than 1 at a time. This is where Line and the community comes in. You know and trust them from PVP/PVE/Allanice rooms even if you play different than some of them. You would not pick up a random you don't know from the forums (which I hate to say is slowly going away unless a hot topic like this/Bouns Heros exploit/bad game play happen).  The current game functions are old and getting very boring.  This game would not be the same without outside game communication.  If you are not on line and just want this game to be a 3 match game, then great.  If you want to be more competitive then Line is almost a must unless you are in the top end roster side. Sorry but it's true. 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yes
    The rockett said:
    I don't want to veer off this topic, but again without a third party application like Line, this game would take a major hit if not dead.  It would be candy crush with a Marvel spin. 

    No recruitment rooms.
    No pve bracket rooms.
    No hoarding rooms.
    No alliance rooms.
    No coordation.
    No BUYERS ROOMS, I think I heard heads explode at D3/Demi. 
    Nothing. 
    It IS Candy Crush with a Marvel spin... lol  

    I'm not saying LINE or cooperation is bad.  I'm saying the system is bad because those are practically required to be more than moderately successful.
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    No
    Beer40, you are wrong. Less people would indeed hit 1200, but much much less people will hit 900. Rising tide floats all boats. 
  • aa25
    aa25 Posts: 348 Mover and Shaker
    No
    Beer40 said:

    :snip:

    So my thought on the "natural order of things" is that very, very few people were probably intended to get to 1,200. With outside collusion/collaboration more people are able to reach that goal. However, more people that should be able to get to 800-900 aren't able to because they aren't a part of this outside community. However, maybe they are replaced in some instances by people that shouldn't be able to get to 800-900 because those people are part of the community? Who knows about that, really. It's possible. And that could be why PVP doesn't get changed, because the bottom numbers look right.

    :snip:
    There is one of the "hidden mechanic" in the PvP. The missing ingredient from your statement is the timing. To get to 800-900 you need to know when to do it. If you do it too early, the slice won't have other targets with good enough point for you to hit. You will see only 20-30 pts worth of choices. Too late, all the players with good points will shield up to keep their score for placement or whatever, and again you won't see worth targets. In both case, if you keep hitting those 20-30 pts opponents, eventually, you will become a target that worth 50 pts for many others (thus, a lot of people may hit you and make it looks like you are being targeted, but the fact it, you are not.)
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
    Beer40 said:
    Daiches said:
    Lol.. "out of game collusion" as you so negatively call it, is the main reason 1200 progression scores are even available to be reached. If you are looking to play friendly with groups of 200 people (some find that number daunting, some don't want to play friendly at all, etc.. each plays as he wants), you are welcome to join check rooms. You will have an easier time and you may make some friends. 
    Being able to play together with friends is what has kept this game going for so long after all.
    Your choice to interpret it negatively I suppose. I actually think you might be right about the part I put in bold. The rest of what I'm going to type is directed towards everyone, not you specifically.

    That's a part of the reason I asked the question to begin with. We've seen various accusations and admittance of people not being able to get past 800-900 because they're crushed once they get to/near that point total. 

    So my thought on the "natural order of things" is that very, very few people were probably intended to get to 1,200. With outside collusion/collaboration more people are able to reach that goal. However, more people that should be able to get to 800-900 aren't able to because they aren't a part of this outside community. However, maybe they are replaced in some instances by people that shouldn't be able to get to 800-900 because those people are part of the community? Who knows about that, really. It's possible. And that could be why PVP doesn't get changed, because the bottom numbers look right.

    So my thought is that if you remove the outside collusion/collaboration less people will get to 1,200 but many more will get to 800-900 because there won't be groups larger than actual alliance size that can stop them. So in a way, badsaj is also correct in their interpretation of the question. Its all a part of the question.

    By the time the general public is looking to hit 8-900, most Line users are already past progression.  Also, most of these 8-900 guys are in the 3-4 star, maybe 5 star transition players...most of us on Line, are way past that transition that we can't que them based on our MMR.  If we are able to que them, they are generally worth 1-10 points.  Now if you get rid of the outside collusion, then there is going to be a blood bath at the 6-700 point mark, maybe even less as the big rosters will have to hit everyone over and over and over to get to that 1200 progression...and then we will have to start another why are you bullying me in pvp topic.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Maybe
    broll said:
    The rockett said:
    I don't want to veer off this topic, but again without a third party application like Line, this game would take a major hit if not dead.  It would be candy crush with a Marvel spin. 

    No recruitment rooms.
    No pve bracket rooms.
    No hoarding rooms.
    No alliance rooms.
    No coordation.
    No BUYERS ROOMS, I think I heard heads explode at D3/Demi. 
    Nothing. 
    It IS Candy Crush with a Marvel spin... lol  

    I'm not saying LINE or cooperation is bad.  I'm saying the system is bad because those are practically required to be more than moderately successful.
    Chicken or egg almost.  Is the pvp designed bad, so we have to use outside communication to succeed, or is it not being fixed because people succeed with outside communication.  
  • RemoDestroyer
    RemoDestroyer Posts: 277 Mover and Shaker
    No
    I tried a bunch of other gem matching games. While many were fun I probably didn't play any of them for more than a couple months, certainly not 1352 days. And I didn't spend any money on them either. Without Line and the out of game cooperation mpq would have been added to that group a long time ago. 
  • Jarvind
    Jarvind Posts: 1,684 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
    Yes
    Yes, and all the people voting "No" are the ones ruining it. Fight me.

    Also: what in the what is a "hoarding room?" Do you guys just swap pictures of your big token numbers?
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    No
    Jarvind said:
    Yes, and all the people voting "No" are the ones ruining it. Fight me.

    Also: what in the what is a "hoarding room?" Do you guys just swap pictures of your big token numbers?
    It's almost a support group for people to stay strong to not open LT and CP for months. And then a fun moment watching someone open a huge hoard and see if they beat the odds (and cheer with them) or get destroyed by RNG (and commiserate with them). 
    It's also a lot of math nerdery and statistics, and discussions about characters. And every thing besides that.
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    Yes
    Spudgutter said:
    broll said:
    The rockett said:
    I don't want to veer off this topic, but again without a third party application like Line, this game would take a major hit if not dead.  It would be candy crush with a Marvel spin. 

    No recruitment rooms.
    No pve bracket rooms.
    No hoarding rooms.
    No alliance rooms.
    No coordation.
    No BUYERS ROOMS, I think I heard heads explode at D3/Demi. 
    Nothing. 
    It IS Candy Crush with a Marvel spin... lol  

    I'm not saying LINE or cooperation is bad.  I'm saying the system is bad because those are practically required to be more than moderately successful.
    Chicken or egg almost.  Is the pvp designed bad, so we have to use outside communication to succeed, or is it not being fixed because people succeed with outside communication.  
    And therein lies my original question. Outside communication definitely is helping some players (by their own account) and its definitely hurting some players (by their own account). 

    To me that just reads as part of the problem, not a solution to a problem. There's definitely a divide on this and that is probably why we'll never see some sort of fix.

    The company probably can't make any changes to positively improve the PVP experience because we've got a group that will still use outside sources to obtain more rewards than MPQ probably wants to give out. The people have said as much by saying that the outside community is the only reason they're staying with the game. 

    I think having an outside community and using it to make friends and improve your purchases is great. I don't have time for it, but to those that do, that's awesome. I think to actually improve the PVP experience in general though, MPQ is going to have to find a way to separate the community from actual in-game play. 

    Yes, many of you have told me I'm wrong. You may be right. I'll try not to comment on this any more and just continue reading others opinions. I've found this to be a pretty good conversation. Hopefully, MPQ will find a solution that works for more people, without taking away any aspects that people already like about PVP (such as the community). I don't have an answer that would do that. Maybe someone else in the conversation will. I may jump back in the convo later on if I see something that does both (that could be realistic to implement! My favorite part of this convo is that no one is throwing outlandish ideas out there that we know wouldn't be considered).
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    No
    I haven't personally used the LINE groups or whatnot, but it seems to me that the biggest problem with PVP is it's fundamental framework.  From my understanding, LINE helps with the scheduling of PVP play; it doesn't dictate the need to schedule PVP play to succeed--that's just how PVP is.  That's my biggest issue with PVP and why I don't really play it all that seriously.
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